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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
The whole point of the tiers counting down from 11 instead of up from 0 is to allow Tier 0 to serve as an "endpoint" tier, and an "endpoint" tier having subcategories defeats the whole purpose of it existing.
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I don’t agree with splitting tier 0, but I do agree with adding more tiers and making 0 even “harder” to reach.

My biggest suggestion is to split High 1-A somehow to make it more defined.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
The whole point of the tiers counting down from 11 instead of up from 0 is to allow Tier 0 to serve as an "endpoint" tier, and an "endpoint" tier having subcategories defeats the whole purpose of it existing.
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tier 0 i s an end point because it exceeds all possible logical frameworks of the tiers below , which ultimas new proposed tier 1-A and H1-A do. You cant have a tier that exceeds all possible frameworks be in the same level as a tier within them
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
What exactly does this mean when metaphysical jumps are inherently illogical.
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They are inherently illogical in the same way that something being beyond dimensions entirely is illogical. It makes no sense in the real world, but fiction doesn't recognize that, so we have to accommodate for it as a fictional indexing site.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
They are inherently illogical in the same way that something being beyond dimensions entirely is illogical. It makes no sense in the real world, but fiction doesn't recognize that, so we have to accommodate for it as a fictional indexing site.
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Illogical in the real world isn't the problem. We can make sense out of illogical things by giving them definitions. What you suggested is that there could be metaphysical jumps that have a value greater than +1. It's impossible to assign an objective scale to the quality of metaphysics.

Even if a story is like, "you can stack an infinite amount of narrative layers and you will won't even reach this level" whatever that level is, is still going to be just +1 above infinite layers.

BasedNecoScaler69 said:
probably aleph1 - infinite amount of jumps?
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Sure, but I wouldn't describe that as being beyond any possible extensions of a conventional metaphysical jump.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Illogical in the real world isn't the problem. We can make sense out of illogical things by giving them definitions. What you suggested is that there could be metaphysical jumps that have a value greater than +1. It's impossible to assign an objective scale to the quality of metaphysics.

Even if a story is like, "you can stack an infinite amount of narrative layers and you will won't even reach this level" whatever that level is, is still going to be just +1 above infinite layers.
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No, it would not. This runs contrary to fundamental principles on this site about how transcending infinite hierarchies works.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
No, it would not. This runs contrary to fundamental principles on this site about how transcending infinite hierarchies works.
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Transcending infinite hierarchies was paired with dimensionality. What Ultima proposes throws the fundamental principles away and has to make new ones.

Ultima's whole point was that Qualitive superior layers are not quantitative, they are qualitative. You cannot compare layers in anyway other than higher, equal, or lower. How does a fictional story create something that beyond that?
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Transcending infinite hierarchies was paired with dimensionality. What Ultima proposes throws the fundamental principles away and has to make new ones.

Ultima's whole point was that Qualitive superior layers are not quantitative, they are qualitative. You cannot compare layers in anyway other than higher, equal, or lower. How does a fictional story create something that beyond that?
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That a set of layers is qualitative doesn't mean one "cannot compare layers in anyway other than higher, equal, or lower" in the slightest. Some qualitative layers provide bigger jumps than others.
 
Me reading all of this after 1 hour of sleep:
reading-monkey.gif
 
Executor_N0 said:
Just look at the marvel cosmology page. It ends in a way that the entire cosmology explained in the blog until the last topic is just a small part of a higher version of the same cosmological tree, with the highest realm of the first tree being just the very basis of the second tree.
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And how do you quantify how many jumps each of those “layers” are?
 
Is Ultima even going to have a Low 1-A tier? Even now, I find that to be quite the pointless tier. But in that system, it'd be even more pointless.

💀

Pretty massive W by Ultima on the thread just now, by the way.
 
Phoenks said:
Is Ultima even going to have a Low 1-A tier? Even now, I find that to be quite the pointless tier. But in that system, it'd be even more pointless.

💀

Pretty massive W by Ultima on the thread just now, by the way.
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Low 1-A may just be this new "High 1-B+" he mentioned or something
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
By looking at how the verse portrays them.
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Okay but all verses are going to portray qualitive superiority in a unique and unquantifiable way that cannot he quantitively compared to other fictions. All these jumps are just going to equalized to +1.

There is no such thing as an objectively bigger qualitative jump.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Okay but all verses are going to portray qualitive superiority in a unique and unquantifiable way that cannot he quantitively compared to other fictions. All these jumps are just going to equalized to +1.

There is no such thing as an objectively bigger qualitative jump.
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Just like there's no objective way to compare magic systems between verses. If that's your complaint, you have a problem with fundamental Verse Equalization site standards.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
This isn’t a fair comparison because we don’t give tiers based on the quality of the magic system.
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By default, all qualitative jumps are assumed to be the same. If a verse portrays certain qualitative jumps as superior to others, they scale above the baseline for qualitative jumps.
 
I'm happy that R>F is being tackled officially.

Though, I do have a question concerning it. Specifically about Author Avatars. Under the proposed tiering system: How would you tier those whose abilities is equal / comparable to the abilities Real Life Humans (Us for instance) have over their Fictions ?

The reason I ask is because certain verses (official and OC) tackled this in certain ways so I wanted to ask to be certain
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
I'm happy that R>F is being tackled officially.

Though, I do have a question concerning it. Specifically about Author Avatars. Under the proposed tiering system: How would you tier those whose abilities is equal / comparable to the abilities Real Life Humans (Us for instance) have over their Fictions ?

The reason I ask is because certain verses (official and OC) tackled this in certain ways so I wanted to ask to be certain
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Probably still 1-A, as the degree of power is irrelevant from what I understand. Like, higher beings who literally cannot even interact with a R>F below them would still be 1-A.

I mean, think of CM.
We are naturally superior to them in nature, as they are literal fiction to us, even though their written feats would VASTLY exceed what humans can do.

We could also have a High 1-B structure in a book, but then a layer above that is only 3D.
From my understanding, "dimensions" are more complex in nature in higher layers.

High 1-B is completely inferior on a lower level of reality than a 3D one on a higher layer on a narrative level...like again, compare fiction with High 1-B things to us; weak 3D beings...we are still superior in nature.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
By default, all qualitative jumps are assumed to be the same. If a verse portrays certain qualitative jumps as superior to others, they scale above the baseline for qualitative jumps.
Click to expand...
How many verses actually do that? It sounds like we will just be deciding which qualitive jump is superior which is going to be arbitrary because there is nothing quantitative or logical about qualitative jumps.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
How many verses actually do that? It sounds like we will just be deciding which qualitive jump is superior which is going to be arbitrary because there is nothing quantitative or logical about qualitative jumps.
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One, a lot. Two, there's nothing logical about them, but fiction doesn't understand that, so we have to accommodate.
 
Suppose you have two realms. Realm A and Realm B. Realm A is a universe much like ours, while Realm B is a transcendental place that has pretty much all of the properties we'd expect of something that fits the bill for "qualitative superiority." That is to say: Realm A is described as infinitely less than Realm B. To Realm B and its inhabitants, Realm A is literally a fiction, an illusion, something completely impotent, and nothing happening in Realm A can ever be of any consequence to Realm B because of this.

However, there's a catch: For all their infinite superiority over Realm A, the beings of Realm B can't really interact with it in any way. They can interact with each other, but not with lower realms or beings.

To me, Realm B would be Tier 1, without question. To you, though, it seems like Realm B wouldn't be able to be compared to Realm A because of its lack of ability to interact with it. Ergo, it seems that "superiority" to you hinges on the amount of control that the higher thing is able to exert over the lower. While, in my eyes, that doesn't matter in the slightest.
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So beings from Realm B, cannot create, affect, or destroy realm A, but they're somehow superior to it doesn't make sense.

There are scientific hypotheses that state that if parallel universes exist, we wouldn't be able to interact with them at all or even know that they exist. How is that relationship any different from Realm B and Realm A. Will I suddenly be Low 1-C if view these hypothetical parallel worlds as fiction?
 
Deagonx said:
I mean there's nothing logical about dimensional tiering either, so. It's just the approach we took to index things that don't actually correlate to anything in reality.
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higher infinities do exist in fiction, the problem is equating them to dimensions with no other context ( im pretty sure the wiki has rules against that anyway)
 
I don't really get why SAO was brought up in the thread.

SAO is a virtual reality that is taken as being the "reality," but it also isn't like... a fictional thing. It's a virtual reality, which still based in neurons in the brain along with electrical impulses in technology, transistors, and whatnot, which would be 10-C, not tier 11.

It's case is a bit similar to Animation VS Animator, which used to be 10-C for being based in a computer's data, but was then reality equalized to being the baseline level of reality, which is why they were upgraded, I believe.

So I would say SAO is a pretty bad example, honestly.
 
It was just to demonstrate how the notion of a "baseline reality" is often fuzzier than it would need to be for this proposal to work, and can lead to conclusions that many would consider unreasonable. Whether the number is "10" or "11" isn't really pertinent. We don't tier SAO characters as 10-C, and we wouldn't/shouldn't tier real-life Kayaba Akihiko as anything more than a regular human because of the fact that he created or controls SAO.
 
Phoenks said:
SAO is a virtual reality that is taken as being the "reality," but it also isn't like... a fictional thing. It's a virtual reality, which still based in neurons in the brain along with electrical impulses in technology, transistors, and whatnot, which would be 10-C, not tier 11.
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I mean, let's be real, in the real world, our world, fiction also exists as collective electric impulses in our brains.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
I mean, let's be real, in the real world, our world, fiction also exists as collective electric impulses in our brains.
Click to expand...
This is an understated point. The idea that fiction is like an anthill, some small but concrete thing that we can all agree exists in the exact same manner between two people is wrong. The version of the Harry Potter story that exists in my mind is different from the one that exists in others, because we all fill in the blanks a little differently.
 
Deidalius said:
I'm mostly saying it because we assume verses that are below baseline reality are on baseline reality just for the sake of "Debate" rather than to be accurate.

A character being fictional inside of a verse will be fictional to baseline reality no matter how you look at it. There are millions of verses that would be considered Tier 11 on this wiki yet we only have like a dozen Tier 11 characters in this wiki because of that stupid rule.

I'd be more willing to accept it if this wiki displayed fiction inside fiction characters correctly with an option to equalize reality at the side.
Something like
Tier: Without Reality Equalization | With Reality Equalization
Click to expand...
I thought quoting this here would be appropriate.
 
Deagonx said:
It was just to demonstrate how the notion of a "baseline reality" is often fuzzier than it would need to be for this proposal to work, and can lead to conclusions that many would consider unreasonable. Whether the number is "10" or "11" isn't really pertinent. We don't tier SAO characters as 10-C, and we wouldn't/shouldn't tier real-life Kayaba Akihiko as anything more than a regular human because of the fact that he created or controls SAO.
Click to expand...
Isn't this moreso a problem with reality equalization in general, than it is with the tiering system?
 
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