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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"
- Thread starter Iamunanimousinthat
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Phoenix, I was the last one debating the “irrelevant speed” to remain in the wiki. The only reason it was removed is that there is no practical difference between “irrelevant speed” and "immeasurable speed."
“Irrelevant speed” was considered a higher degree of "immeasurable speed," which is why it was removed, as there was no practical distinction between them.
Frankly speaking, when I was researching about this concept, this one does not even have any basis to begin with.
“Irrelevant speed” was considered a higher degree of "immeasurable speed," which is why it was removed, as there was no practical distinction between them.
Frankly speaking, when I was researching about this concept, this one does not even have any basis to begin with.
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If needed, I'm working on a revision of the overall understanding of temporal transcendence after reading some books and studying the subject. It's a very complicated and contradictory concept over the centuries it was discussed about.
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This sounds wrong in many levels and contradictory. The word "immeasurable" implies that something cannot be measured or quantified. If something is truly immeasurable, it means that it cannot be expressed or determined in terms of quantity. In other words, it cannot be assigned a numerical value or compared in a quantitative manner.
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The only reason they deemed it to have to now have "no practical difference" is because, fundamentally, the wiki changed from accepting things as being fully separate from dimensionality (Older version of the wiki), to now having a system wherein everything is ascribed some degree of dimensionality that is measurable in some capacity (Current version of the wiki).
This meant that all speed could be measured in some capacity as well. Since speed relies on some degree of space/time. Even if the speed is beyond the linear time. Hence, irrelevant was... irrelevant.
However, again, in Ultima's system, things would no longer all be equivalated to some degree of dimensionality/space/etc. Specifically those qualifying for his "Qualitative superiority." So things could reasonably just be beyond what space and time as a whole could cover.
This would make a big distinction between immeasurable speed, and things that are qualitatively superior to space.
What "immeasurable" as a word means has nothing to do with what it means on this wiki.
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- #406
The higher layers would still have their own concepts of space/causality/math logic.
Unless, you want to make it so strict, that only logicless voids of information can qualify for 1-A.
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Everything you said, and I still don't see any practicalities of the suggested speed tier. Elaborate on why it is not any different from immeasurable speed?
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Sure, of course they could. But those concepts of space, causality, math, logic, etc - would be superior to conventional concepts of space, causality, math, logic, etc...
Sorry, it's probably a bit confusing for ppl because I keep switching how I describe the qualitative superiority thing. It's a bit hard for me to describe properly, tbh.
Basically, Ultima's system makes every extension of standard mathematical dimensionality stuff High 1-B, right... (all of that is within quantitative superiority whatever)
So like, if you're qualitatively superior to space n whatnot, reaching 1-A on his system, you are superior to the entirety of all conventional mathematical (quantifiable) extensions of space.
This would make you superior to what immeasurable covers by default I believe. You'd no longer be operating on the same concepts that those within immeasurable are operating on.
Does that make sense?
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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No, it doesn't, for reasons explained above.
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Well, whatever then. Maybe Ultima will clarify.
Pretty sure he would need to add Irrelevant back, though.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Stop it, he won't.
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No, not at all. Everything you said about being unbounded by those 'concepts' is different from 'immeasurable speed,' but you haven't explained why it's different. Don't just state that it's the case; explain it logically. Break down the reasons bit by bit.
Unless we are using different definitions of that term, I am specifically talking about this:
It lacks a single basis for how it practically works. We had no explanation of this concept whatsoever. Heck, we define speed as distance over time, without even considering the number of spatial dimensions involved.
I went back to the oldest edit of the speed page to the current one, and not a single time, Ultima or anyone else explained the difference between immeasurable and irrelevant speed. Not a single time. Ant added this, apparently without any revision (maybe a discussion, but he forgets to add the link).
I can't even comprehend the difference. Is the being just immobile? How does he act? How is he faster than the omnipresent being?
A common interpretation is that it's "1-A and above levels of immeasurable speed" or "speed that exists outside the concept of time, space, and dimension," with the latter hardly sounding like speed and the former being merely immeasurable speed.
Edit:
The way it originally founded was to make irrelevant speed "a high-end version of immeasurable speed". So, let me know what it practically makes any different to rate it as immeasurable speed. Even Qawsedf234 expressed that it is hardly any fundamental practical different to immeasurable speed.
To summarize, it is simply an extension of immeasurable speed. I am not someone who likes to use other people's arguments to make my case, but I merely searched for a thread where it was discussed and explored the reasons behind it or its foundation.
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I'm not very good at explaining this stuff, so I won't continue here. I tried above to give you my reasonings for it being different, but you said it didn't make sense so it's fine.
I'll just wait to see if Ultima comments on this matter.
Also, I will just say that, yeah, Irrelevant isn't even a "speed" rating, since the whole idea is that it's beyond speed, essentially. Difficult subject to explain.
I'll just wait to see if Ultima comments on this matter.
Also, I will just say that, yeah, Irrelevant isn't even a "speed" rating, since the whole idea is that it's beyond speed, essentially. Difficult subject to explain.
Vietthai96
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Irrelevant Speed......................isn't speed at all, character receive Irrelevant speed is because the concept of speed, movement is irrelevant to them, but that the same time, it also mean those characters do not move at all, so @DontTalkDT decide that that kind of speed rating is redundant and can't measure in a vs match, it just these for the sake of being there, so he delete it
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This is the comparison of all time
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- Thread starter
- #417
I mean technically they would still be the same. Just one is fake and one is real. You would still apply the regular distance formula to the space in the higher layer. There is no “new” or alien math/concepts/logic for the higher levels unless the verse establishes such.
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Which reasoning are you referring to? I asked for a practical difference, but you did not provide any. Please don't just state that it's the case; explain it logically. Break down the reasons step by step. Otherwise, I don't understand why you believe this.
Beyond speed of what exactly? This in essence don't sound any different to immeasurable speed. Even if we add criteria stating that they need feats of superiority in a manner that allows surpassing immeasurable characters in terms of speed or supriority over speed, there would still be the problem that it can only be done relative to a certain layer of Immeasurable. An irrelevant speed character surpassing one time dimension could still not be considered superior to an Immeasurable character that surpasses two, three, or even aleph 99 many dimensions.
Since there is no upper limit to Immeasurable speed, there can't be a tier superior to it overall.
Look, I don't want to sound mean, but the phrase 'Difficult subject to explain' doesn't sound sincere at all. It comes across as a dismissive excuse, especially since I'm just asking for your reasons. Knowing that one is right is meaningless if they can't explain it.
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I always found the basic version of immeasurable speed being a unquantifiable measurement of d/T since it's unquantifiable to make division equation using irrational numbers like -2 seconds, -40 years, or a billion years into future without making another irrational number in the equation semantically. While irrelevant speed was unbound by either D or T.
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Anos solos that weak fodder of very existent 1AH misfit
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Angus is not stronger than Carrot
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Extraversal tier between Tier 2 and 1 when?
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I don't understand.
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I was kidding.
But I’ve been thinking about it being the new Tier 1 pushing the other tiers down. Thus pushing the other tiers downwards. i.e. complex multi to outer will be Tier 2.
…
…
…
Low Tier 2-A: Low Outer
Tier 2-A: Outer
High 2-A: High Outer.
Tier 1-C: R>F 1 layer
Tier 1-B: R>F 2-infinity
Tier 1-A: Above the concept of dimensionality and space
Tier 0: True boundless.
Fun to think about.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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That doesn't make sense as a tiering system and is also not what Ultima's proposing.
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Bro just wrote the tier of DBZ goku.
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Although I’m intrigued as to why it wouldn’t make sense? And I know it’s not what Ultima’s proposing.
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Oh yea, i had a response for your comment, that i forgot about due to being threadbanned
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Relevant speed
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relevant like your mom
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'Nough said
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Lmao I’m reading the original thread rn and you guys already proposed expanding the tiering idea but rather than a new higher tier I was joking about y’all wanted to make “fiction” Tier 12
… I see how that makes sense but I find it funny.
… I see how that makes sense but I find it funny.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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No, it doesn't make sense. Relegating a verse to tier 11 or 12 simply because it acknowledges itself as fictional where others don't would shamelessly betray the whole purpose of RFT and make our tiers for them essentially a joke. Introducing layers that see the primary narrative as fiction introduces layers above the baseline; it doesn't retroactively make the main narrative inferior to the baseline. Introducing layers that the primary narrative sees as fiction would be creating narratives below the baseline.Lmao I’m reading the original thread rn and you guys already proposed expanding the tiering idea but rather than a new higher tier I was joking about y’all wanted to make “fiction” Tier 12
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In the context of where I am on the thread,
It does make sense for verses where the “main reality” creates a fictional entity within themselves. For example, let’s say Rick from Rick and Morty created a fictional universe. I can see why that world would be Tier 12.
It does make sense for verses where the “main reality” creates a fictional entity within themselves. For example, let’s say Rick from Rick and Morty created a fictional universe. I can see why that world would be Tier 12.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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That falls under "introducing layers that the primary narrative sees as fiction," which is already Tier 11.
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I see, okay then.
Going back to previous posts, I want to talk about why new higher tiers can’t be made (aside from the massive work that comes with a change like that).
Most, if not all, of our tiers are based on dimensionality. When I jokingly proposed to make/adjust tier(s) that accommodate beings below boundless but above dimensionality (such as R>F or something of similar nature), you said it didn’t make sense. I’ve been wondering why. Can you elaborate?
Going back to previous posts, I want to talk about why new higher tiers can’t be made (aside from the massive work that comes with a change like that).
Most, if not all, of our tiers are based on dimensionality. When I jokingly proposed to make/adjust tier(s) that accommodate beings below boundless but above dimensionality (such as R>F or something of similar nature), you said it didn’t make sense. I’ve been wondering why. Can you elaborate?
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the only way for there to make sense is to split tier 0, which i agree with ( but ultima doesnt to my knowledge.)
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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The whole point of the tiers counting down from 11 instead of up from 0 is to allow Tier 0 to serve as an "endpoint" tier, and an "endpoint" tier having subcategories defeats the whole purpose of it existing.
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tier 0 i s an end point because it exceeds all possible logical frameworks of the tiers below , which ultimas new proposed tier 1-A and H1-A do. You cant have a tier that exceeds all possible frameworks be in the same level as tiers within those frameworks. each tier has a common theme. tier 1 being the tier of higher infinities and cardinals, and tier 2 being the tier of universal structures
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