TF2 Downgrades Part 3

[00potato]

9-A-8-C via Vaporizing weapons makes no sense because the only time you see them,in gameplay, they due about the same amount of damage as normal weapons.

 

[Livinmeme]

9-A-8-C via Vaporizing weapons makes no sense because the only time you see them,in gameplay, they due about the same amount of damage as normal weapons.

yes all vaporazing weapons scale to his normal contrapart (especially when most of them are reskin)

 

[Livinmeme]

ironacly this even was acepted and was agred this look a litle weird

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Right can we just hold on for a moment.

Clearly some of us still don't agree with the outcome. As of this moment I have contacted Dargoo and Wokistan to help mediate this CRT.

Hopefully the voice of a third party can sort this out.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

At this point the only one who doesnt agree with the outcome is Livin who has been trying to stall the thread for almost three months with no evidence. A third party iant required to sort out a disagreement of 'no because I said so'.

 

[Livinmeme]

At this point the only one who doesnt agree with the outcome is Livin who has been trying to stall the thread for almost three months with no evidence. A third party iant required to sort out a disagreement of 'no because I said so'.

weekly are you kiding no seriously you are ignoring my two texts one who whas monumental and you are say

 

[Livinmeme]

i think and this point weekly just hate me (especially when the monumental post was deleted for some reason)

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Schwxnz, Jacky and me all agree that Mercs should be 9-B+. Clearly there's still more to be discussed here. I would like a third party opinion if that's alright with you.

 

[Livinmeme]

Schwxnz, Jacky and me all agree that Mercs should be 9-B+. Clearly there's still more to be discussed here. I would like a third party opinion if that's alright with you.

me?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Schwxnz, Jacky and me all agree that Mercs should be 9-B+. Clearly there's still more to be discussed here. I would like a third party opinion if that's alright with you.

Its an outlier for the rockets given that all of the other calcs for the yield of them puts it dozens to hundreds of times lower

Also we dont see how many rockets it took to make that explosion

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, taking the AP of one rocket and then taking "Three rockets strike all at once" to multiply the AP by 3 is considered Damage stacking. Durability is not a linear HP system where defense and resistance stats don't exist, it's non linear and has multiple sub categories. Durability shouldn't be confused with endurance, which withstanding multiple 7 Megajoule attacks is still 7 Megajoule durability but with endurance to take multiple hits.

Also, vaporization weapons don't work the same way attacks of blunt force trauma work. We use the radiation resistance calculator for calculating durability. And although Vaporizing robots was calculated at 8-C, the durability/heat resistance to withstand those is only 9-B. Emissiviy of human flesh is 0.8, surface area of a 1.77m tall human is 1.34 m^2, and boiling point of steel is 2900 C (Subtract that from the initial 20 C starting tempurature to get 2880 K for change in tempurature) and using this calculator you get 4181651.1102321 Joules which is only a Wall level durability/heat resistance feat. And the fact that they get completely vaporized by Cow Mangler and all those other weapons are only stronger indications of Anti-Feats.

Also, surviving 3 rockets is still an anti-feat. Although in terms of survivability it's a feat, but in terms of Durability it's an Anti-Feat. He was completely paralyzed after that attack. He couldn't even move until Medic healed him back up.

 

[Genericstickman]

Wasn't Demon the one paralysed? We only see Scout after getting hit by the three rockets when he's getting healed, and for those short seconds he doesn't seem that paralysed

 

[Livinmeme]

First of all, taking the AP of one rocket and then taking "Three rockets strike all at once" to multiply the AP by 3 is considered Damage stacking. Durability is not a linear HP system where defense and resistance stats don't exist, it's non linear and has multiple sub categories. Durability shouldn't be confused with endurance, which withstanding multiple 7 Megajoule attacks is still 7 Megajoule durability but with endurance to take multiple hits.
Also, vaporization weapons don't work the same way attacks of blunt force trauma work. We use the radiation resistance calculator for calculating durability. And although Vaporizing robots was calculated at 8-C, the durability/heat resistance to withstand those is only 9-B. Emissiviy of human flesh is 0.8, surface area of a 1.77m tall human is 1.34 m^2, and boiling point of steel is 2900 C (Subtract that from the initial 20 C starting tempurature to get 2880 K for change in tempurature) and using this calculator you get 4181651.1102321 Joules which is only a Wall level durability/heat resistance feat.

Also, surviving 3 rockets is still an anti-feat. Although in terms of survivability it's a feat, but in terms of Durability it's an Anti-Feat. He was completely paralyzed after that attack. He couldn't even move until Medic healed him back up.

you know that the cow managler is not calor even if was there are like 5 weapons what function like normal weapons who can still desintragate and even one is melee (aka saber laser)

 

[Schwxnz]

I wasn't suggesting that we should stack the damage like that- only that it makes sense for a blast caused by three rockets to be 9-B+ if one single rocket equals to 6.9 megajoules.

I believe you may be misunderstanding me here. I am not trying to scale anyone's physical stats to 8-C, I am only trying to get them to "9-B+, 8-C with (insert vaporizing weapon)".

He was already pretty injured prior to tanking the blast.

 

[Livinmeme]

I wasn't suggesting that we should stack the damage like that- only that it makes sense for a blast caused by three rockets to be 9-B+ if one single rocket equals to 6.9 megajoules.
I believe you may be misunderstanding me here. I am not trying to scale anyone's physical stats to 8-C, I am only trying to get them to "9-B+, 8-C with (insert vaporizing weapon)".

He was already pretty injured prior to tanking the blast.

question you know that the stock weapons scale to the vaporazing weapons

 

[Schwxnz]

I can personally agree with that, but I can assure you that that will not be accepted.

 

[Abstractions]

question you know that the stock weapons scale to the vaporazing weapons

They obviously don't, as the only reason the vaporizing weapons have the 8-C is because of that fact, the normal weapons don't, so they don't scale, it's simple.

 

[00potato]

I don't understand a single word of that jumbled up mess.

They do the about same amount of damage and are survived by the people you claim are 2 sub tiers below it. You are adding assumptions when the only appearance of the weapons contradicts it.

 

[Livinmeme]

I don't understand a single word of that jumbled up mess.
They do the about same amount of damage and are survived by the people you claim are 2 sub tiers below it. You are adding assumptions when the only appearance of the weapons contradicts it.

wow you explaining like 5 times better than i did

 

[Genericstickman]

Simple, Game Mechanics

 

[Genericstickman]

Actually you can probably scale to the Short Circuit vaporising projectiles with one shot

 

[00potato]

Let's be honest snowman.

You are calling something game mechanics not because any lore or actual in-game facts contradict it but because it contradicts your head canon based scaling. I don't care what tier they are but either the weapons scale to then or they scale to the weapons.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Using "Damage ratings" to justify Attack Potency is literally just using game mechanics and ignoring the scientific properties behind the various weapons.

 

[DMUA]

You are calling something game mechanics not because any lore or actual in-game facts contradict it but because it contradicts your head canon based scaling. I don't care what tier they are but either the weapons scale to then or they scale to the weapons.

I haven't been too into this, but what little I've seen kinda feels like this for me

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We can't really take the incineration weapons and backwards scale them to every single ballistic in the verse; that's called creating loopholes. Also, Ugarik already addressed in detail that Heat Resistance =/= durability against blunt force trauma. It's why glass isn't more durable than solid steel. Taking hits from Cow Mangler was also only calculated to be a Wall level durability feat if you take the size of the mercs and using the emissivity of human flesh and temperature required to vaporize steel. It's another reason why tanking gas explosions isn't High 8-C to 8-B as layed out by Kepekley.

 

[Agnaa]

I agree with Weekly/DDM here.

Scaling characters to tanking something that vaporizes them is nonsense. If they tanked it, they wouldn't be bloody vaporized.

Explosions gibbing characters is disanalagous - we calc the explosions which they tank a few times before being gibbed, we don't calc the gibbing itself.

 

[Abstractions]

I don't understand a single word of that jumbled up mess.

They do the about same amount of damage and are survived by the people you claim are 2 sub tiers below it. You are adding assumptions when the only appearance of the weapons contradicts it.

My point was very clear and concise, it isn't my fault you failed to understand it.

 

[00potato]

No it really wasn't ab


But if taking a hit from it is Wall Level, then why add it as 8-C?

Agnaa, they don't just get insta vaporized, they take hits from it like any other weapon, you are adding the assumption of "they can't actually survive it." When the only appearance of the weapon contradicts it.

 

[Agnaa]

@00potato If we're saying that the energy of the weapon comes from vaporizing the entire human body, but you're also saying that they tank it and accumulated damage causes the vaporization, then the calc is inflated. It doesn't output that vaporization energy at once, it outputs it over multiple shots.

But I'm also kinda inclined to take exact damage values as game mechanics, and not to use the number of shots a character takes from a thing in gameplay to have any bearing on the profiles.

 

[00potato]

You call it game mechanics, but it isn't contradicting anything besides your own opinions. We literally have nothing to go off of besides the gameplay and a few descriptions. So why count it as game mechanics when it contradicts nothing and only is in gameplay.

I never claimed that they tank it though. And I never made any claims about the calc, why bring it up.

 

[Agnaa]

Game mechanics aren't necessarily contradictory. Not a lot of games have a sufficient story for respawning to be a contradiction, doesn't stop it from being game mechanics. We don't just have gameplay, there's tons of lore comics. Those should be primary sources, I don't think the games should have much use at all.

Oh, if you have no issue dismissing vaporization, then why are you defending it against me?

 

[00potato]

There are lore, but that doesn't mean the game is invalid, TF2 is primarily a game, a comic secondarily.

Respawning is a gameplay mechanics because the game literally would not function as well without it, and it is a staple of the genre.

Weapons that vaporize upon death are none of those things.


I am mostly here to argue that they need to scale to the weapons, or have the weapons scale to them.

 

[Agnaa]

It doesn't mean that the game is invalid, but most of the feats taken from the game are game mechanics, and the comics/SFM shorts give a much better idea of the story isolated from game mechanics.

Different weapons having different damage values is game mechanics because that gives a way for weapons to be different, so balance and variety can be introduced. The weapon vaporizing on death isn't this, but scaling damage values to each other is. The calculable feats/statements of the weapons matter more.

If you're arguing that they scale to the vaporization weapons, you are arguing that they tank them. Because if a character dies to something they do not scale. Characters scale if they tank.

 

[00potato]

Yeah but the weapons have no inherent reason to be in the game, unlike respawning. Different weapons doing different things makes sense outside of the games mechanics anyway. The only reason you are claiming that must gameplay feats are just mechanics is that they contradict your pre-set view rather then any accurate scaling or logic.

There is nothing outside of the gameplay to judge these weapons by so scaling the weapons, since they all can be survived by the same people and do similar things to the non-Vape weapons is the only reasonable option.


You don't need to tank something to scale?? if you can consisabtly survive something, even if you take some damage, you can scale. That is just basic scaling. By that logic no video game character could scale to any bosses in the game due to taking damage from them. If two characters punch each other, and visibly damage each other evenly, they won't scale to each other?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

They get vaporized by the weapons, that is not surviving them

 

[00potato]

They survive hits from the weapons and they are functionally about the same as the weapons you are scaling them to,

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The problem is, "If it just does moderate damage throughout most shots, but then the final shot instantly vaporizes them completely", that's another example of a loophole. Because unless the Cow Mangler vaporizes their body in one shot, it shouldn't be scaled from the 300 Megajoules. While at the same time, getting vaporized is a massive Anti-Feat and suggests their durability would have to be much lower than the Cow Mangler's AP.

2nd, no one has actually looked at the official formula for tanking heat/radiation based attacks. There's a literal calculator for those types of attacks, where the result was only 9-B.

 

[00potato]

I agree that the Cow Mangler isn't 300 Megajoules, since it is as strong as the Rocket Launcher. The anti-feat only happens upon death, which takes a few shots, so it isn't really an anti feat for the Mercs so much as it is one for the weapons.

What I disagree with is not having them scale to their weapons, which they consistently survive.

 

[Schwxnz]

The mercs are being scaled to every weapon sans the vaporizing weaponry.

 

[Livinmeme]

I don't know this looks like a standard double giant especially saying it's in game and it's not according to your convenience plus almost any 9-b feats can be classified as suports feats