Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Discussion Thread 20

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Is Testarossa's whip hax too?

“I’m surprised that you Primordials are so quick to dismiss magic.”

“Is it that surprising? What is our pride but a pittance in comparison to the victory we shall bring to our Lord?”

Testarossa’s whip struck Velgrynd, who had turned to the defensive in the face of Carrera’s onslaught. Like a white snake that had split into countless pieces, Testarossa hunted down her prey at will.

“Tsk!” Velgrynd clicked her tongue in annoyance. The hem of her dress was torn by the whip. A glimpse of her beautiful legs peeked out, and a bright red welt could be clearly seen there. It was proof that Testarossa’s attack had worked.

“Nice work, Testa. I’ll continue being the vanguard, so keep up the good work.”

“I can’t believe you’re happy at such a fluke.”

Even though she was slightly injured, Velgrynd was still relaxed and had plenty of time. That’s why, while facing Testarossa and the others, she made a serious blunder. In other words, she had been careless.-Volume 15, Chapter 1

When Ultima got slammed into the ground is that hax

“That was a clean hit, Ultima. We shall ask Rimuru-sama for praise later.”

“That was impressive, but we must not be careless. Let’s keep this thing going!”

“Yeah! There’s still another ‘Parallel Existence’ left, so let’s kill that one too and interrupt the ritual!”

Hearing these voices in the distance, Velgrynd stood up.

“Oh my, it seems you didn’t take too much damage from our attacks.”

“Even I would take a long time to break the hold of Ult’s ‘poison curse.’ True Dragons are really amazing.”

“But you see, it’s not like we can’t beat her, right? The damage will accumulate; at this rate, she’ll—”

Velgrynd moved fast, outpacing Ultima before she could finish her sentence. She grabbed Ultima by the neck and slammed her to the ground with such speed that even the three demon girls’ super intuition could not detect her.-Volume 15, Chapter 1

Also @Peak is right, the issue was that True Dragons can't be harmed by things bound by the worlds laws

“It’s rude to call His Lordship a slime,” Carrera roared indignantly and unleashed her magic.

She opened with her trump card, ‘Gravity Collapse,’ right out of the gate. The scale was reduced in size as much as possible, thus increasing the intensity. The strongest attack that Carrera could currently muster hit Velgrynd, who was focused on Testarossa.

Velgrynd was enveloped in a jet-black pillar that seemed to connect heaven and earth. The circular pillar, which was only big enough to hold a single person, was like a prison from which there was no escape.

However…

Velgrynd smiled fearlessly, remaining unperturbed in the cage of hypergravity.

“As expected of a demon overlord. Your magic is perfectly powerful. However, for so long as you are bound by the laws of this world your attack won’t work against a True Dragon.”

As if to prove her point, Velgrynd shattered the jet-black pillar from within. She raised her own mana and interfered with Carrera’s magic, rendering it powerless-Volume 15, Chapter 1

I can also pull out the 100x statement when i find it, but clearly i think Primordials scale, and it's not just hax.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Didn't Testarossa and Carrera damage Velgrynd as well? I don't remember the fight perfectly, but I think only Ultima used hax to damage Velgrynd

.

And, their attack are Ultimate in nature. Ultimate thing can do something to other Ultimate thing

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Shouldn't the issue of the trio having ultimate level attacks give them resistance to law manipulation? They are causing harm that only users who are liberated from the laws of the world should be able to do, Velgrynd also says something similar when Carrera uses gravitational collapse

There is something called Invulnerability

They can do something to Invulnerability thing

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Idk what the argument even is here? Velgrynd is very durability, 5-B at least, and in addition needs an US to be harmed due not being able to be harmed by things bound by the worlds laws.

Primordial Trio got willpower comparable to US thus can get pass her invulnerability, but also the 3 of them were holding her off, and tanking damage from Velgrynd's attacks, and are said to be a 100x weaker.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

it was Parallel Existence Velgrynd (10% i think) that the Demoness Trio was fighting.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Every split body she makes, 10% is used as a maintenance cost

Such usage was the essence of ‘Parallel Existence.’ No matter how powerful the killer move was, it was meaningless in the face of Velgrynd’s power. However, this Skill was not all-powerful either. There were some restrictions on its use.

The biggest restriction was that for every ‘Split Body’ created, 10 percent of the maximum amount of magicules would be used as collateral. This was not a consumption, but a maintenance cost. The term ‘collateral’ was employed since she would get the magicules back once the ‘Split Body’ was erased. However, it was also an irrefutable fact that there was a limit to the number of ‘Split Bodies’ that could be created. The maximum number of ‘Split Bodies’ that Velgrynd could produce was ten. However, if Velgrynd created ten of them, the amount of magicules she had left would be zero, and her fighting ability would be reduced.

Velgrynd believed it would be more efficient to keep at least 50 percent of her magicules, since they could be shared with any ‘Split Body.’ Therefore, she kept the number of split bodies to three or four at most.

There was one more limitation. It was the damage done to the Split Body. If the body was erased without issue, the full 10 percent of magicules would be returned. However, if the body was damaged, the amount of magicule returned would be proportionally less. This was the strategy that Rimuru had envisioned, and in a sense, it was correct.-Vol 15, Chapter 1

And every copy reduces the maximum magic each can tap into

Meanwhile, with the Parallel Existence skill Velgrynd had, she could divide bits of her consciousness into every copy. “Copy” wasn’t even the right term any longer—it was simply like having multiple versions of your “real” self. It meant that even if you killed one of them, as long as there’s at least one other “alternate” of hers left, that could serve as her main one. Plus, she didn’t have to split up her magic force at all. Every “alternate” was connected with the main body, so she could replenish as much magic power as she wanted on any version of herself.

There’s a limit, of course, to how much magic she has overall, so the more bodies she has out, the more that reduces the maximum magic each individual one can tap. Normally, you’d see that as a weakness to leverage, but this was a True Dragon, notorious for having scads of magicules. She could replenish her alternates faster than they could use up magic, so even a modicum of usage wouldn’t mean much.-Volume 14, Chapter 3

So yea pretty you're much correct, 10% of 5-B, would be Low 5-B though i think, and then a 100x below that would still be high into High 6-A. I like that spread a lot better.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Every split body she makes, 10% is used as a maintenance cost



And every copy reduces the maximum magic each can tap into



So yea pretty you're much correct, 10% of 5-B, would be Low 5-B though i think, and then a 100x below that would still be high into High 6-A. I like that spread a lot better.

You shouldn't use her energy level to scale the power of the Parallel Existences, or any relevant character.
Also, Velgrynd isn't 100x stronger she just has that much more energy. The strength of the Parallel Existences are the same strength as the original Velgrynd. So if they can hurt 20% clones they can harm 100% Velgrynd.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Interesting, what does everyone else think?

Also Gabiru needs some respect, it's sad that an unawakened Karion is as strong or stronger than him.

And again Laplace, he can fight with Yuuki, and that other dude whose name I forgot who are both awakened demon lord level, upgrade for him?

 

[Peak]

Also @Peak is right, the issue was that True Dragons can't be harmed by things bound by the worlds laws

Yeah, there is a statement that true dragons are already at the final level even without an ultimate skill, I don't remember anything inconsistent with that, so I would give law manipulation to all ultimate skill users, because they can control the laws of nature, in addition to consistent statements stating that this is an absolute rule, so what about resisting law manipulation to those who can harm ultimate skill users? They're breaking the world's rules

There is something called Invulnerability

They can do something to Invulnerability thing

Can't it be both? For what makes true dragons and ultimate skill users invulnerable is the fact that they are released from the laws of the world and their opponents are not, it has been shown several times that upon being released from the laws of the world, this invulnerability no longer applies

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yeah, there is a statement that true dragons are already at the final level even without an ultimate skill, I don't remember anything inconsistent with that, so I would give law manipulation to all ultimate skill users, because they can control the laws of nature, in addition to consistent statements stating that this is an absolute rule, so what about resisting law manipulation to those who can harm ultimate skill users? They're breaking the world's rules

Yea makes sense, ultimate skill users aren't bound by the laws of the world.

 

[CodeCCLL]

You shouldn't use her energy level to scale the power of the Parallel Existences, or any relevant character.
Also, Velgrynd isn't 100x stronger she just has that much more energy. The strength of the Parallel Existences are the same strength as the original Velgrynd. So if they can hurt 20% clones they can harm 100% Velgrynd.

I do not agree this. Wiki logic doesn't work like that. AP measure are based on energy calculations/feats.
Energy multipliers will be valid here.

 

[Peak]

I do not agree this. Wiki logic doesn't work like that. AP measure are based on energy calculations/feats.
Energy multipliers will be valid here.

This is not true, everything you said depends on how the verse treats it, it is very common to see verses in which the one with the highest energy is not necessarily the one with the highest AP, Naruto is a good example to use

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

In Slime off the top of my head Pre-Awakened Benimaru had magicules below ADL, but was still stronger than Rimuru when he first awakened.

Probably more instances there, another one i can remember was from way back when Hakurou had the lowest magicule count of the Kijin, yet was the strongest at that time, and could harm Geld.

So yea having more energy, doesn't necessarily mean you are stronger.

 

[CodeCCLL]

This is not true, everything you said depends on how the verse treats it, it is very common to see verses in which the one with the highest energy is not necessarily the one with the highest AP, Naruto is a good example to use

What part of what I said did you get that from?

 

[Community_Gamer]

In Slime off the top of my head Pre-Awakened Benimaru had magicules below ADL, but was still stronger than Rimuru when he first awakened.

Its really specificified by Rimuru generally had am abundance of energy for his Threat Level and Rimuru increased tenfold but Benimaru likely didn't.

Probably more instances there, another one i can remember was from way back when Hakurou had the lowest magicule count of the Kijin, yet was the strongest at that time, and could harm Geld.

So yea having more energy, doesn't necessarily mean you are stronger.

Hakuro is A Rank at best yet he's several times stronger than someone like Gozer and Mezer.

Zegion being capable of fighting evenly with Veldora and Veldora wanting to fight with him against Velgrynd.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Naruto is a good example to use

Also...
Itachi and Kisame transferred some of their chakras (energies) in their clones and They has clones only strong to the extent of the amount of chakra they had.Naruto's clones also work this way. Also, the more clones he creates, the weaker the clones become. Because the amount of chakra they have is less.

 

[Community_Gamer]

I do not agree this. Wiki logic doesn't work like that. AP measure are based on energy calculations/feats.
Energy multipliers will be valid here.

Yeah that works when energy has a direct correlation to strength or AP. This point about energy reverses versus output is emphasized in V16. But its been present since V6.

Like Diablo said "a difference in magicule doesn't mean a difference in strength". Hence Rain having more magicules than Diablo but Diablo still being stronger. Or Diablo having far more energy than Blanc but still concerned about her killing him.

Or Shion obliterating Dagruel's sons.

 

[Metalballrun]

This isn't a debate. Energy level is just a very baseline rudimentary judgment of how powerful characters are or can be. Control of their energy and power always trumps that.

As CG stated, there are so many fights to choose from where the person with lower energy defeats or even stomps the ones with higher energy. Like Shion vs Dagruel's sons. All three of them individually had way higher, Clayman levels of energy and Shion had lower. She quite literally stomped them, and she was so durable one of them broke his foot when he landed a kick on her.
There's also Benimaru vs Charybdis, where even that incomplete Charybdis has way higher energy than Benimaru afaik and Benimaru one-shot it without even expending much of his energy.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

It's kinda like on paper this person should be this strong, but doesn't mean in reality they are that strong.

In which case should we even be using these 10xmagicule increases when scaling Rimuru? It can be proven he got stronger, but is it 10x though.

 

[Metalballrun]

Good question. Though first of all, we're no longer scaling Rimuru to be 10x stronger. His Pre-TDL self downscales from being 10x weaker than his TDL self. Though there have been High 6-A revisions and I haven't been involved in that, so I'm not sure if there were changes.

Generally speaking, I scaled the characters compared to one another, and if they have no other feats, by comparing their energy levels as supplement unless there are evidence that they are weaker than what their energy level implies. But in general, if a character defeats someone with higher energy than them, they simply scale to that character's level.
At that time that was the best way I could use to determine scaling for the characters. Though it's case-by-case.

For Rimuru specifically, I believe he has the best pass when it comes to scaling because he is one of the characters with proven the most efficient use and control of energy because of Wise One/Wisdom King.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So in conclusion this then it seems

You shouldn't use her energy level to scale the power of the Parallel Existences, or any relevant character.
Also, Velgrynd isn't 100x stronger she just has that much more energy. The strength of the Parallel Existences are the same strength as the original Velgrynd. So if they can hurt 20% clones they can harm 100% Velgrynd.

 

[Metalballrun]

As far as I remember that's the case though it's been a while since I've read the novel when it was still just MTL.

 

[CodeCCLL]

This isn't a debate. Energy level is just a very baseline rudimentary judgment of how powerful characters are or can be. Control of their energy and power always trumps tha

It has nothing to do with what I want to say.

 

[Peak]

What part of what I said did you get that from?

.

AP measure are based on energy calculations/feats.

Also...
Itachi and Kisame transferred some of their chakras (energies) in their clones and They has clones only strong to the extent of the amount of chakra they had.Naruto's clones also work this way. Also, the more clones he creates, the weaker the clones become. Because the amount of chakra they have is less.

I won't delve into that, as Naruto is not the focus here, but if energy was equal to AP in naruto then the character naruto or any other uzumaki would be the most powerful in the series since the beginning, anyway, going back to Tensura, CP and Metalbalrun have probably already answered your questions

 

[Peak]

As far as I remember that's the case though it's been a while since I've read the novel when it was still just MTL.

what is your opinion on this?

And again Laplace, he can fight with Yuuki, and that other dude whose name I forgot who are both awakened demon lord level, upgrade for him?

 

[Community_Gamer]

I won't delve into that, as Naruto is not the focus here, but if energy was equal to AP in naruto then the character naruto or any other uzumaki would be the most powerful in the series since the beginning, anyway, going back to Tensura, CP and Metalbalrun have probably already answered your questions

Nah, in Naruto its about chakra amount + control that makes you stronger than someone else.

 

[Community_Gamer]

what is your opinion on this?

Laplace being Awakened Demon Lord level makes sense. He stronger than Awakened Gabil, he can fight Unification Treyni for days, he fought evenly with Louis, he's somewhat comparable to Dark Spirit Soei, and he's considered the best fighter of the troupe.

So he's got a lot.

 

[Peak]

Nah, in Naruto its about chakra amount + control that makes you stronger than someone else.

Perhaps, because if that were the case, all edo tensei would basically have the same AP

 

[Peak]

Laplace being Awakened Demon Lord level makes sense. He stronger than Awakened Gabil, he can fight Unification Treyni for days, he fought evenly with Louis, he's somewhat comparable to Dark Spirit Soei, and he's considered the best fighter of the troupe.

So he's got a lot.

So he should have two keys, right? Since he used to suppress himself a lot in previous volumes, even though he is much stronger than he looks

 

[Nxdia00]

So he should have two keys, right? Since he used to suppress himself a lot in previous volumes, even though he is much stronger than he looks

Not really? It's just Laplace holding back, not something that requires a new key like Footman and Tear that quite directly stated to possess "Sealed" and "Unsealed" state so to speak.

 

[Peak]

Not really? It's just Laplace holding back, not something that requires a new key like Footman and Tear that quite directly stated to possess "Sealed" and "Unsealed" state so to speak.

fair

 

[Metalballrun]

While I agree with Laplace being capable of hanging with TDL characters, it should be noted that he is stated to be explicitly weaker than most TDL level individuals. Yuuki is specifically described to be around twice as strong as Laplace IIRC. It's also repeatedly stated that while he's the best fighter in the Moderate Clowns, he's not the strongest, stat-wise.
Laplace hanging with people with way higher EP than him is mostly a testament to his skills as a fighter.

And yeah Laplace is just mostly holding back prior to the Roy fight, after that all of his fights were serious AFAIK.

I've checked his profile and he's already 6-A, though I'm unsure from what value he scales from now. Optics wise that's probably where he should be. Just decide from whom and what value he is supposed to scale from explicitly.

 

[Community_Gamer]

While I agree with Laplace being capable of hanging with TDL characters, it should be noted that he is stated to be explicitly weaker than most TDL level individuals. Yuuki is specifically described to be around twice as strong as Laplace IIRC. It's also repeatedly stated that while he's the best fighter in the Moderate Clowns, he's not the strongest, stat-wise.
Laplace hanging with people with way higher EP than him is mostly a testament to his skills as a fighter.

And yeah Laplace is just mostly holding back prior to the Roy fight, after that all of his fights were serious AFAIK.

I've checked his profile and he's already 6-A, though I'm unsure from what value he scales from now. Optics wise that's probably where he should be. Just decide from whom and what value he is supposed to scale from explicitly.

Yes I'd have to agree and yeah I don't think he gets any upgrades its just something to take note of.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Will probably post the thread tomorrow, it's not anything massive, the bulk of content from the vol is for characters who don't even have profiles like Veldora, Testarossa etc.

So besides ap arguments should be relatively straight forward.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Vol 15 crt.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Anyone planning those speed downgrades?

Cause that requires a reread for me to do that.

Like my general impression would be something like supersonic Slime Rimuru, hypersonic Demon Slime, and something like massively hypersonic True Dragon, could be very wrong, and at the moment, not planning on a reread until a while longer.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Anyone planning those speed downgrades?

Cause that requires a reread for me to do that.

Like my general impression would be something like supersonic Slime Rimuru, hypersonic Demon Slime, and something like massively hypersonic True Dragon, could be very wrong, and at the moment, not planning on a reread until a while longer.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

 

[Metalballrun]

Anyone planning those speed downgrades?

Cause that requires a reread for me to do that.

Like my general impression would be something like supersonic Slime Rimuru, hypersonic Demon Slime, and something like massively hypersonic True Dragon, could be very wrong, and at the moment, not planning on a reread until a while longer.

I was, but I'm not really able to do it anytime soon.

These are mostly right though their perception speed are gonna be higher, like True Dragon Rimuru probably have FTL perception speed with his Thought Acceleration x100000000

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cool, at least it will be done eventually, that said when making a Velgrynd profile, gonna be weird for the moment to have her speed at Relativistic+, when she peaks at sub-light speed, definitely gonna feel off.

Speaking of that idk if anyone plans on making those profiles ie Velgrynd, Primordial Trio etc.

 

[Nxdia00]

Tbh, the only one that possibly can get Relavistic speed is anything that combine Disintegration with (anything that move the user) imo. While pure Disintegration spell is SoL along with Megiddo and Argos.