Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Discussion Thread 20

[Peak]

Well that just Guy at that time, Chloe just reacted and parried but its implied she can do so too. At least there's no reason she can't.

she could but she couldn't keep it for long because she didn't have much energy, in volume 13 she managed to activate and kill Jiwu thanks to Rimuru's help in borrowing energy to her

 

[Peak]

OK I was just rereading V8....I need get started on full reread actually (lucky #4).

But anyway. Its kind of odd to think about the whole royal bloodline of Sarion Dynasty.

First we have Elaude, he is Eren/Elwyne's father. But he's also the son of Elise Griwmald who is the heas of 13 dynasties AND Elmesia's grandmother.

Which means Elaude is Elmesia's uncle. Despite this she is ancient to him, as she's lived much longer.

But Elise had another son, Elaude's brother Sarion aka Laplace. He "died" before the creation of the kingdom. This ancient history even Elmesia, who's only ever known her identical mama.

Speaking of which, Slivia (the goat of family, Sarion cool too) she's obviously Sarion's wife, Elmesia's mother, and Elaude's sister in-law. But as we know, she is a True Elf ala a high elf created by the Divine Ancestor, Twilight Valentine.

This means that Slivia is the oldest elf which means Elmesia's mother is older than her Dad, her Uncle, and her grandmother Elise.

Easily the most confusing yet interesting bloodline we have. I'm sure Rudra's is a pretty headache inducing too but more straightforward.

Laplace getting on with his ancestor, so old she his grandmother thousands of times over.

Just hearing this makes my head knots, Rudra's case is easier because it involves reincarnation, although I don't understand why he doesn't live as long as Chloe, I don't remember if it was explained, but Chloe lives 2 thousand years and hasn't aged, while it looked like Rudra had the time of a normal human even though they were the same level of existence

 

[Peak]

Can we really guarantee that Chloe was a digital lifeform since you acquired the time stop? In fact, it looks like there really are two types of time stop, Chloe's time stop doesn't have to be digital lifeform, we see it with her not having the speed to catch up to Jiwu even in stopped time, because it was very little time

‹Use the ‘Spacetime King’ again and win it outright.›

‹Huh?›

‹You can stop time for a short time, but that was too short for Jiwu, wasn’t it?›

Chloe seemed to have mastered the Skill as long as she didn’t do anything reckless. I didn’t know how long that short time was, but I guess it was not enough time to catch up with Jiwu who had an Ultimate Skill.

On the other hand, Rimuru was able to recognize Chloe's time stop

All movements stopped, and I felt as if my whole body was in a state of fixation.

I felt as if I had experienced this feeling somewhere else, without understanding what had happened.

That right, this was the same feeling I had gotten when Guy and Chloe first clashed.


«Report. Individual Chloe Aubert’s energy has decreased. It seems that she failed to control her Skill.»


At the same time, I remembered that it was the same feeling I had when I was stopped in time. Wisdom KingRaphael-san had issued a warning to me. Then I noticed that Chloe had turned back into a child.

unlike Velzard's case, the sensation may be the same, but the effects and conditions for moving may be different, making the assumption that in fact they are different time stops, in Guy's case in volume 12, he had probably used Velzard's ability, and there Rimuru felt the strange sensation but couldn't recognize what was happening, Chloe's time stop he was able to recognize, although he was not able to follow what actually happened, maybe the time for those who can move and the time for those who can recognize are different, with the time for those who can only recognize being relatively short, Rimuru vol19 was the only one so far who managed to recognize and follow everything that happened at the time stop, since in the case of volume 19 Velgrynd and Testarossa spent a short time having the feeling of the time stop, but for now that's all I thought and theorized, I would find it interesting if it were two types of time stop, even because the concept of Chloe and Velzard's skills are different, what do you think about it?

 

[Peak]

ah, another thing I noticed too is that Chloe can't deactivate Velzard's time stop, that could mean two things, or that only whoever activates the time stop can deactivate, or that you can't disable the other's time stop if yours is different, but of course this second possibility will only work if there really are two types of time stop

 

[JV_DLS]

For the verse to reach High1A, it would have to be proven that the transcendental worlds surpass 5D so it would be a clear proof that there was a hierarchy, so instead of 2B it would be 1B, there are worlds beyond directions and worlds without directions, if the first hypothesis is correct then it would be 0D and low 1A, there can be more than 1 world low 1A, if the spiritual world really encompasses the material worlds including low1A then it would be 1A, and as there are spiritual worlds more powerful than each other such as the world of ghosts, cryptds and Insectars, the promised land is beyond the totality of the spirit worlds 1A, so the promised land would be High1A, and depending on the verse it can climb some layers if the cosmology continues, and if it doesn't hear any contradiction and veldanava actually be the omnipotent in its verse without seeing any possibility of seeing someone above him or a limit he can reach then he would be tier 0, of course the hypotheses need to be proven

this would be interesting, especially if that supposed "fuse" statement is real, so having 27 or 28 Vol Fuse could introduce this dimensionality issue more naturally or even in After Story.

But honestly high 1-A or level 0 would already be a big exaggeration, if I were to think about a high upgrade I would at most like High 1-B or 1-A, if it were the case of wanting something very high, but for I would be happy with 2-A or 1-C with things like transduality 2 or above, Acas 5 and layers of resistance and Hax, and maybe very maybe a possible plot manipulation

 

[MehrasJB]

I am here to bless you with this butiful art.

 

[JV_DLS]

You've heard of the theory that there is a "God" above Veldanava, and that this supposed god would be the true omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

The worst that if you think about Veldanava's story it really makes sense, how he lost his powers and then life for the system he created, apart from the various things that happened and were created without him even knowing, is this possible or a mere paranoia

 

[Community_Gamer]

she could but she couldn't keep it for long because she didn't have much energy, in volume 13 she managed to activate and kill Jiwu thanks to Rimuru's help in borrowing energy to her

The issue with that is Chronoa couldn't the US at until after getting help from Raphael. Anyways I'm just saying that Chloe didn't stop at all in V12.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Just hearing this makes my head knots, Rudra's case is easier because it involves reincarnation, although I don't understand why he doesn't live as long as Chloe, I don't remember if it was explained, but Chloe lives 2 thousand years and hasn't aged, while it looked like Rudra had the time of a normal human even though they were the same level of existence

Rudra's not a Saint. Also he has reincarnate forcefully in order to rest Michael as well. Which honestly had the opposite effect.

Chloe is also much older that 2,000 years old but simply haven't seen that part of her history.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Can we really guarantee that Chloe was a digital lifeform since you acquired the time stop? In fact, it looks like there really are two types of time stop, Chloe's time stop doesn't have to be digital lifeform, we see it with her not having the speed to catch up to Jiwu even in stopped time, because it was very little time

On the other hand, Rimuru was able to recognize Chloe's time stop

unlike Velzard's case, the sensation may be the same, but the effects and conditions for moving may be different, making the assumption that in fact they are different time stops, in Guy's case in volume 12, he had probably used Velzard's ability, and there Rimuru felt the strange sensation but couldn't recognize what was happening, Chloe's time stop he was able to recognize, although he was not able to follow what actually happened, maybe the time for those who can move and the time for those who can recognize are different, with the time for those who can only recognize being relatively short, Rimuru vol19 was the only one so far who managed to recognize and follow everything that happened at the time stop, since in the case of volume 19 Velgrynd and Testarossa spent a short time having the feeling of the time stop, but for now that's all I thought and theorized, I would find it interesting if it were two types of time stop, even because the concept of Chloe and Velzard's skills are different, what do you think about it?

I have would have disagree. I think this just trying add some sort of credence to the idea that DLF aren't directly connected to whether or not someone has time stop. You are doing this because you think there's a inconsistency which can be a contradiction in logic that she's been DLF since V11 because of the battle with Jiwu.

But the narrative already answered the question. Chloe not being able to control her powers doesn't have to extention the length of time stop and how inefficiently she was using energy. Remember that DLF's in SW operate and move based on transference of information between particles. A individuals superiority over another is dependent on adept you are at transferring. So if Chloe is so bad at controlling her ability to stop time wouldn't stand to reason she'd equally incapable at managing the transfer? Especially when doing both at the same time?

If you want to peruse the angle about DLF's becoming them at different times. Maybe you should look into Sariel.
Although trying to prove that's the case for all DLF's is currently impossible because you don't information about Velzard and Guy....and potentially Prime Rudra.

 

[Community_Gamer]

ah, another thing I noticed too is that Chloe can't deactivate Velzard's time stop, that could mean two things, or that only whoever activates the time stop can deactivate, or that you can't disable the other's time stop if yours is different, but of course this second possibility will only work if there really are two types of time stop

After her "ultimate evolution" does seem to have greater control over time and could disable Michael's time stop.

Btw when do you believe that Velzard stopped time? And why?

 

[Peak]

You've heard of the theory that there is a "God" above Veldanava, and that this supposed god would be the true omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

The worst that if you think about Veldanava's story it really makes sense, how he lost his powers and then life for the system he created, apart from the various things that happened and were created without him even knowing, is this possible or a mere paranoia

I personally would find it bad for the story, and I doubt it's true

 

[Peak]

After her "ultimate evolution" does seem to have greater control over time and could disable Michael's time stop.

Btw when do you believe that Velzard stopped time? And why?

Well, there was no time she actually stopped time, we know she has this ability because Michael got the time stop analyzing Velzard's ability, and it would be weird if someone inexperienced in battle like Michael could use it and Velzard couldn't, besides that I don't see anyone else that Guy could copy the time stop

 

[Peak]

Rudra's not a Saint. Also he has reincarnate forcefully in order to rest Michael as well. Which honestly had the opposite effect.

Chloe is also much older that 2,000 years old but simply haven't seen that part of her history.

But isn't a 'chosen hero' something above a saint? I had this doubt based on this assumption

 

[ImmortalDread]

I personally would find it bad for the story, and I doubt it's true

But again, I still do not understand how he lost them if he was genuinely omnipotent. An omnipotent user can't lose the powers; in fact, those are not powers. It is literally his nature.

You've heard of the theory that there is a "God" above Veldanava, and that this supposed god would be the true omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

The worst that if you think about Veldanava's story it really makes sense, how he lost his powers and then life for the system he created, apart from the various things that happened and were created without him even knowing, is this possible or a mere paranoia

Is it a theory, or it has been mentioned? Never heard of it.

 

[Peak]

I have would have disagree. I think this just trying add some sort of credence to the idea that DLF aren't directly connected to whether or not someone has time stop. You are doing this because you think there's a inconsistency which can be a contradiction in logic that she's been DLF since V11 because of the battle with Jiwu.

But the narrative already answered the question. Chloe not being able to control her powers doesn't have to extention the length of time stop and how inefficiently she was using energy. Remember that DLF's in SW operate and move based on transference of information between particles. A individuals superiority over another is dependent on adept you are at transferring. So if Chloe is so bad at controlling her ability to stop time wouldn't stand to reason she'd equally incapable at managing the transfer? Especially when doing both at the same time?

If you want to peruse the angle about DLF's becoming them at different times. Maybe you should look into Sariel.
Although trying to prove that's the case for all DLF's is currently impossible because you don't information about Velzard and Guy....and potentially Prime Rudra.

I can't disagree with what you say so I agree, I don't know why I rush so fast on this subject, end of this month I believe Fuse will take the time to talk more about digital life forms and the time stop

 

[Peak]

But again, I still do not understand how he lost them if he was genuinely omnipotent. An omnipotent user can't lose the powers; in fact, those are not powers. It is literally his nature.

as been mentioned? Never heard of it.

He didn't lose, he threw it away willingly, if an omnipotent being can't do that, then he's not omnipotent, since an omnipotent being must be able to change everything, and altering one's nature isn't really uncommon in Tensura, anyway, don't think about it too much, it's not like we're saying he's 1-A or something, because that's not possible with the little information we have, it's just that in the verse of Tensura he is the supreme God

 

[ImmortalDread]

He didn't lose, he threw it away willingly, if an omnipotent being can't do that, then he's not omnipotent, since an omnipotent being must be able to change everything, and altering one's nature isn't really uncommon in Tensura, anyway, don't think about it too much, it's not like we're saying he's 1-A or something, because that's not possible with the little information we have, it's just that in the verse of Tensura he is the supreme God

You got a point in the first sentence. I almost forget about it.

 

[Peak]

You got a point in the first sentence. I almost forget about it.

Yes, and you had asked about a being above Veldanava, this is nothing more than a theory, and Fuse has never shown any interest in it, he has already said that he intends to make Veldanava the supreme being and having other creations besides his is something that is part of his wishes

 

[Peak]

do you think Chloe beats Rimuru? I mean, Chloe has reverse fate and a new level evolution unknown to us, even while before she could face Michael, but Rimuru has Ciel, castle guard and all the abilities of the angelic system, not to mention his usual abilities and others he didn't show, not to mention that he may have 100k+ EP (although there is nothing confirming that Rimuru receives the EP from whoever devours), honestly after all I think if Chloe stops time and manages to reverse fate, she wins, as she nullifies all of Rimuru's defenses (including the castle guard)

 

[JV_DLS]

do you think Chloe beats Rimuru? I mean, Chloe has reverse fate and a new level evolution unknown to us, even while before she could face Michael, but Rimuru has Ciel, castle guard and all the abilities of the angelic system, not to mention his usual abilities and others he didn't show, not to mention that he may have 100k+ EP (although there is nothing confirming that Rimuru receives the EP from whoever devours), honestly after all I think if Chloe stops time and manages to reverse fate, she wins, as she nullifies all of Rimuru's defenses (including the castle guard)

Great question, reverse fate is really powerful and if it hits Rimuru it is capable of leaving him incapacitated as I don't think Chloe would reach Rimuru's real body within imaginary space but it would still be a win for her but in the middle of everything we have a big "IF" because if she uses immeasurable speed Rimuru will still have her defenses and if she stops time everything depends on the control of information particles and I don't think there is anyone better than Ciel in this so far, besides that we haven't seen the what Rimuru's new abilities can do, for me it would be, 55% Rimuru vs 45% Chloe

 

[Peak]

Great question, reverse fate is really powerful and if it hits Rimuru it is capable of leaving him incapacitated as I don't think Chloe would reach Rimuru's real body within imaginary space but it would still be a win for her but in the middle of everything we have a big "IF" because if she uses immeasurable speed Rimuru will still have her defenses and if she stops time everything depends on the control of information particles and I don't think there is anyone better than Ciel in this so far, besides that we haven't seen the what Rimuru's new abilities can do, for me it would be, 55% Rimuru vs 45% Chloe

Rimuru LN has no parallel existence to leave a body in imaginary space.

But he has type 8 immortality, even though killing Veldora wouldn't be difficult for Chloe, now Ciel is really the biggest problem, and Rimuru does have a lot of skills, but Chloe also received it with her skill evolution

 

[Community_Gamer]

Well, there was no time she actually stopped time, we know she has this ability because Michael got the time stop analyzing Velzard's ability, and it would be weird if someone inexperienced in battle like Michael could use it and Velzard couldn't, besides that I don't see anyone else that Guy could copy the time stop

Oh yes I agree. I thought you referencing Velzard stopping time for a specific event. Although considering her perfect control over her energy, despite the massive amount of energy she (potentially more than Veldora). As well as her attribute being of fixation I wouldn't be surprised she had the inherent control over time with actually practicing it.

I don't, I don't really think anyone's really practicing their time stop itself. If you have an understanding of the ability and mastery of your energy should be fine. The main reason I think that though...is because SW effects the whole cosmology.

 

[Community_Gamer]

But isn't a 'chosen hero' something above a saint? I had this doubt based on this assumption

Chosen Hero/True Hero = Champion/Hero
Chosen Hero = Champion
True Hero = Hero

Remember that Saint is physical existence where a Hero is a type of existence similar Demon Lords. Becoming a Hero doesn't change your physical disposition.

Now when you have the Hero Egg which get from the qualification. If you have the blessings from all the spirits specifically the Great Spirit of Light. You are considered a Hero just like a Demon Lord Seed is a Demon Lord.

You need to awaken the Hero Egg to become a Hero or True Hero. Rudra was a True Hero but a True Hero has nothing to do with being a Spiritual lifeform. Just like being a True Demon Lord doesn't necessarily mean that you are a Spiritual lifeform. Ex: Rimuru wasn't one when evolved.

BUT its just that people who strong enough and in human's case (have the determination and character) TEND TO BE Spiritual Lifeforms or at least semi-spiritual lifeforms.

TLDR: Rudra's soul was being weakened through constant reincarnations. So he actually lost his spiritual lifeform body. Just like how Hinata wasn't ever a spiritual lifeform because she was transitioning.

 

[Community_Gamer]

But isn't a 'chosen hero' something above a saint? I had this doubt based on this assumption

I explained this above but no. They aren't even directly related.

 

[Community_Gamer]

He didn't lose, he threw it away willingly, if an omnipotent being can't do that, then he's not omnipotent, since an omnipotent being must be able to change everything, and altering one's nature isn't really uncommon in Tensura, anyway, don't think about it too much, it's not like we're saying he's 1-A or something, because that's not possible with the little information we have, it's just that in the verse of Tensura he is the supreme God

Omnipotent statements don't really mean much anyway. It just scales them above the cosmology and that's it. Which means if the cosmology isn't especially fleshed out its usually just multiversal at best.

And you can't actually ever prove a statement like that to be sound or true. You would need to omnipotent yourself to do so which it in itself would contradict the claim. Not to get too philosophical in this particular thread.

Anyways people shouldn't worry too much about it being contradictory because you can prove anyway. Instead you simply build an argument that shows credibility to the statement and try to make a valid argument.

Which already exists, so its less about if Veldanava is or isn't. Its more about if we care or not and where that gets him.

 

[Community_Gamer]

do you think Chloe beats Rimuru? I mean, Chloe has reverse fate and a new level evolution unknown to us, even while before she could face Michael, but Rimuru has Ciel, castle guard and all the abilities of the angelic system, not to mention his usual abilities and others he didn't show, not to mention that he may have 100k+ EP (although there is nothing confirming that Rimuru receives the EP from whoever devours), honestly after all I think if Chloe stops time and manages to reverse fate, she wins, as she nullifies all of Rimuru's defenses (including the castle guard)

She could already blitz Ciel and Rimuru when giving them Sariel's data/dregs. Which is easily the best speed feat in series. Since Rimuru can perceive the Instanteous battle of Chloe vs Michael (potentially beyond instantaneous). Yet he nor Ciel could see Chloe move.

That shit is wild.... and her evolution wasn't even complete yet.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Rimuru LN has no parallel existence to leave a body in imaginary space.

But he has type 8 immortality, even though killing Veldora wouldn't be difficult for Chloe, now Ciel is really the biggest problem, and Rimuru does have a lot of skills, but Chloe also received it with her skill evolution

Great question, reverse fate is really powerful and if it hits Rimuru it is capable of leaving him incapacitated as I don't think Chloe would reach Rimuru's real body within imaginary space but it would still be a win for her but in the middle of everything we have a big "IF" because if she uses immeasurable speed Rimuru will still have her defenses and if she stops time everything depends on the control of information particles and I don't think there is anyone better than Ciel in this so far, besides that we haven't seen the what Rimuru's new abilities can do, for me it would be, 55% Rimuru vs 45% Chloe

I don't actually think Ciel is that much more impressive than other Manas especially fused Chloe and Chronoa. We tend hype up Ciel because of all her skill alterations and analytical abilities. But remember that Michael specializes in Domination, Ciel comes Raphael originally specialized in Wisdom but with Deviant's abilities too she also has Synthesis. But actually I think Ciel really specializes in Management.

Anyways so if we are judging them on their specialties I don't they can beaten in their fields.

Now what about Chronoa. She comes from Chloe's energy which essentially made a copy of Chloe. So we are look Chloe's power and skills it'd be easy to say Chronoa embodies Time. But I don't think that's the case. Chloe is Hope, she became a hero because she surpassed her trial of determination BUT she did so because of her Hope for a better future. Her hope she'd save everyone and her hope she'd be with Rimuru.

Why is this important? Because Hope allows you to survive and overcome any obstacles. Hope endures. When think about Chloe's character and everything she's done. Most recently she overcame the impossible. No one could break free of the Angelic Domination. Yet she did. She surpasses expectations, saves the day, because she's the truest Hero.

She was able to do what Ciel wasn't through strength will and determination. Its no surprise that Ciel needed Chronoa's help to create the Emergency Response System and evolving Rimuru into a DLF. After all Ciel operates on analysis and calculations.

Aka Chloe the goat.

 

[Diablo_]

I don't actually think Ciel is that much more impressive than other Manas especially fused Chloe and Chronoa. We tend hype up Ciel because of all her skill alterations and analytical abilities. But remember that Michael specializes in Domination, Ciel comes Raphael originally specialized in Wisdom but with Deviant's abilities too she also has Synthesis. But actually I think Ciel really specializes in Management.

Anyways so if we are judging them on their specialties I don't they can beaten in their fields.

Now what about Chronoa. She comes from Chloe's energy which essentially made a copy of Chloe. So we are look Chloe's power and skills it'd be easy to say Chronoa embodies Time. But I don't think that's the case. Chloe is Hope, she became a hero because she surpassed her trial of determination BUT she did so because of her Hope for a better future. Her hope she'd save everyone and her hope she'd be with Rimuru.

Why is this important? Because Hope allows you to survive and overcome any obstacles. Hope endures. When think about Chloe's character and everything she's done. Most recently she overcame the impossible. No one could break free of the Angelic Domination. Yet she did. She surpasses expectations, saves the day, because she's the truest Hero.

She was able to do what Ciel wasn't through strength will and determination. Its no surprise that Ciel needed Chronoa's help to create the Emergency Response System and evolving Rimuru into a DLF. After all Ciel operates on analysis and calculations.

Aka Chloe the goat.

Credit goes to Fuse's Editor "I-san" .That Lolicon guy forced Fuse to write Chloe's story way better .

 

[Community_Gamer]

Credit goes to Fuse's Editor "I-san" .That Lolicon guy forced Fuse to write Chloe's story way better .

Oh well I don't want to thank him if he's a lolicon but...

 

[Diablo_]

Oh well I don't want to thank him if he's a lolicon but...

Fuse called him "Lolicon " most likely because he was so obsessed with Chloe .
I don't think he is literally a Lolicon .
By the way he is also the Editor of Class room of the Elite

 

[Community_Gamer]

Fuse called him "Lolicon " most likely because he was so obsessed with Chloe .
I don't think he is literally a Lolicon .
By the way he is also the Editor of Class room of the Elite

Oh COTE is my favorite LN. Already he's cool

 

[LoganKroos]

damn, 42 pages, I noticed a thing, if you see all the notifications right then you will continue to receive notifications, but if you ignore at least one of them you will stop receiving notifications, that's something I noticed today

 

[LoganKroos]

about Veldanava's omnipotence, it seems a lot like a paradox of omnipotence itself, about if you can give up your powers and stop being omnipotent you wouldn't be omnipotent anymore because you lost your powers, but if you can't let go of your powers then so are you would not be omnipotent as you are bound by your own powers but veldanava gets around that very well as he was omnipotent and willingly left his omnipotence but also he could be revived at his will and with all his powers so he really does not present any limitation and can be considered omnipotent within its verse according to the logic

 

[LoganKroos]

about Veldanava's omnipotence, it seems a lot like a paradox of omnipotence itself, about if you can give up your powers and stop being omnipotent you wouldn't be omnipotent anymore because you lost your powers, but if you can't let go of your powers then so are you would not be omnipotent as you are bound by your own powers but veldanava gets around that very well as he was omnipotent and willingly left his omnipotence but also he could be revived at his will and with all his powers so he really does not present any limitation and can be considered omnipotent within its verse according to the logic

the guy is really badass and insane

 

[Peak]

Oh yes I agree. I thought you referencing Velzard stopping time for a specific event. Although considering her perfect control over her energy, despite the massive amount of energy she (potentially more than Veldora). As well as her attribute being of fixation I wouldn't be surprised she had the inherent control over time with actually practicing it.

I don't, I don't really think anyone's really practicing their time stop itself. If you have an understanding of the ability and mastery of your energy should be fine. The main reason I think that though...is because SW effects the whole cosmology.

maybe you can practice to make the SW spend less energy, it seems that the time stop is the one that consumes the most energy in Tensura

 

[Peak]

Chosen Hero/True Hero = Champion/Hero
Chosen Hero = Champion
True Hero = Hero

I always confuse the names, but I was referring to the true heroes

Remember that Saint is physical existence where a Hero is a type of existence similar Demon Lords. Becoming a Hero doesn't change your physical disposition.

Now when you have the Hero Egg which get from the qualification. If you have the blessings from all the spirits specifically the Great Spirit of Light. You are considered a Hero just like a Demon Lord Seed is a Demon Lord.

You need to awaken the Hero Egg to become a Hero or True Hero. Rudra was a True Hero but a True Hero has nothing to do with being a Spiritual lifeform. Just like being a True Demon Lord doesn't necessarily mean that you are a Spiritual lifeform. Ex: Rimuru wasn't one when evolved.

BUT its just that people who strong enough and in human's case (have the determination and character) TEND TO BE Spiritual Lifeforms or at least semi-spiritual lifeforms.

TLDR: Rudra's soul was being weakened through constant reincarnations. So he actually lost his spiritual lifeform body. Just like how Hinata wasn't ever a spiritual lifeform because she was transitioning.

Hinata managed to become a full saint, I just don't remember when, I think it was against Granbell, but back to the main topic, I thought it went something like this:wise> >saint>hero egg>true hero

but apparently being a saint doesn't interfere with anything regarding the hero's egg, I accept this easily because a true demon lord like Gabiru couldn't evolve into a full spiritual lifeform, this concept is interesting too, actually world building by Tensura is something I've never seen the same, it's an absurd richness, this immersion that I feel reading and discovering about the work is something I only felt watching mushoku tensei

 

[Peak]

Omnipotent statements don't really mean much anyway. It just scales them above the cosmology and that's it. Which means if the cosmology isn't especially fleshed out its usually just multiversal at best.

And you can't actually ever prove a statement like that to be sound or true. You would need to omnipotent yourself to do so which it in itself would contradict the claim. Not to get too philosophical in this particular thread.

Anyways people shouldn't worry too much about it being contradictory because you can prove anyway. Instead you simply build an argument that shows credibility to the statement and try to make a valid argument.

Which already exists, so its less about if Veldanava is or isn't. Its more about if we care or not and where that gets him.

Yeah, but on second thought, as long as it's not Rimuru, I wouldn't mind if Fuse left Veldanava way above cosmology or something, something like umineko for example, like the way they treat Featherine, I don't think it would be that bad, but I also don't want something absurd like everything we've seen so far to have been a dream, as they are theorizing, actually I don't know what kind of ending I would like in Tensura

 

[Peak]

She could already blitz Ciel and Rimuru when giving them Sariel's data/dregs. Which is easily the best speed feat in series. Since Rimuru can perceive the Instanteous battle of Chloe vs Michael (potentially beyond instantaneous). Yet he nor Ciel could see Chloe move.

That shit is wild.... and her evolution wasn't even complete yet.

Scaling Chloe to immeasurable above baseline gg

I wonder why Fuse made Chloe so OP in LN, she wasn't like that in WN, right? Maybe it was the editor's request lol

 

[Peak]

I don't actually think Ciel is that much more impressive than other Manas especially fused Chloe and Chronoa. We tend hype up Ciel because of all her skill alterations and analytical abilities. But remember that Michael specializes in Domination, Ciel comes Raphael originally specialized in Wisdom but with Deviant's abilities too she also has Synthesis. But actually I think Ciel really specializes in Management.

Anyways so if we are judging them on their specialties I don't they can beaten in their fields.

Now what about Chronoa. She comes from Chloe's energy which essentially made a copy of Chloe. So we are look Chloe's power and skills it'd be easy to say Chronoa embodies Time. But I don't think that's the case. Chloe is Hope, she became a hero because she surpassed her trial of determination BUT she did so because of her Hope for a better future. Her hope she'd save everyone and her hope she'd be with Rimuru.

Why is this important? Because Hope allows you to survive and overcome any obstacles. Hope endures. When think about Chloe's character and everything she's done. Most recently she overcame the impossible. No one could break free of the Angelic Domination. Yet she did. She surpasses expectations, saves the day, because she's the truest Hero.

She was able to do what Ciel wasn't through strength will and determination. Its no surprise that Ciel needed Chronoa's help to create the Emergency Response System and evolving Rimuru into a DLF. After all Ciel operates on analysis and calculations.

Aka Chloe the goat.

It makes me think aloud of Granbell as well, as he was able to acquire Sariel on his own, but didn't know how to use it properly, from what was said in the battle against Luminas, Sariel's specialty is also life and death, but it seems Chloe has elevated that to something else, this should be another skill that Ciel should explain better in the next volume as he is analyzing the skill.

And the characters should give more credit to Chloe's feat, they were impressed that Ciel altered Veldanava's abilities, but Chloe in addition to doing that, got out of the domination system without losing Sariel, and was also able to change his own ability to God level, something only Ciel had achieved