Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann tiering

[Joseph619]

Here we will discuss about Gurren Lagann facts and feats. Please do not bring up banned topics such as this and this . No higher dimensional stuff.

 

[DaFritzi]

One topic is whether we should regard "Infinity Big Bang Storm" as a High 3-A feat or as plain 3-A.
2 out of 3 current theories regarding the size of the universe support infinite space, also this screenshot contains a statement about TTGLs universe being infinite as well.

So, is creating all mass within infinite space worth high 3-A?

Another feat that might be interesting is that Simon and his crew survived the collapse of a spacetime continuum (both anime and movie). This does two things, validate movie simons low 2-C rating and should bring up the durability of all top tiers to universe+ level. This on the other side would be another reason to upgrade their AP as well (I would even go as far as saying that this might even validate the low 2-C they had before the recent downgrade). If Simon survives a spacetime collapse nearly unharmed, what does this tell us about AS attacks? And seeing TTGL as nearly equal it would scale to him as well.

A third topic would be upgrading movie Simon from "low 2-C" to "at least low 2-C". By overpowering Antispiral he should be capable of a similar feat like SuperGranzebome + upholding a Universe. Since this was never actually shown a plain 2-C rating would be too much (even though Simons profile states "capable of creating universes", which would be 2-C, maybe some guidebook could help here).

 

[Joseph619]

I think that profile is wrong maybe, Simon was never stated to be capable of creating universe. Could it be movie only?

 

[DaFritzi]

possible, or it might be from the guidebook or via powerscaling from AS (which is a spiral being just like Simon, by beating him he should be at least equal in spiral energy, thus capable of similar feats)

What do you think about my claim #2?

 

[Joseph619]

Are you referring to this statement- "The energy that maintained that universe between dimensions has vanished" after Anti-Spiral's defeat? Hmm I am not sure. Will need more input for this

 

[DaFritzi]

Yeah that statement, Simon and co were inside AS universe when they defeated him. Thus the spacetime collapsed around them.

 

[Joseph619]

Yeah that statement, Simon and co were inside AS universe when they defeated him. Thus the spacetime collapsed around them.

Hmm. That's the universe that Anti Spiral created right? And Anti Spiral was also maintaining it with his Spiral energy.

So our points are

1) The universe created by Anti Spiral could be infinite

2) Anti Spiral's defeat caused collapse of its entire universe

The points are coming along nicely. I will now get scans for Anti Spiral being 2-C

 

[Joseph619]

Spirals are capable of destroying a universe. More scans coming

 

[Joseph619]

Anti Spiral creates several universes and spreads the crew's consciousness across the alternate realities

 

[Joseph619]

Anti Spiral can create entire universes with just thought, and can also control it completely. The destruction of Anti Spiral will also cause the Super Spiral Universe to collapse

 

[Joseph619]

Simon meets with Kamina from alternate universe (which was created by Anti Spiral)

 

[DaFritzi]

That's the multiversal labyrinth thing right, there have been discussions about it with the result that this only was high level mind manip (even though I'm not sure about that, since their bodies in the ship were not solid at that time).

I think we should drop that part, since it has been denied multiple times.

 

[Joseph619]

That's the multiversal labyrinth thing right, there have been discussions about it with the result that this only was high level mind manip (even though I'm not sure about that, since their bodies in the ship were not solid at that time).
I think we should drop that part, since it has been denied multiple times.

You sure about that? Anti Spiral said he can create universe with a thought (not talking about multiversal labyrinth, but Super Spiral Universe). Anyhow lets keep it for now, if somebody has to debunk it they can do it here. We have all the scans available. However if they say it's just illusion I won't argue about it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I do agree that this does seem like a 2-C feat, but I would prefer to wait for Lina Shields, or other knowledgeable staff members, to evaluate this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The "Infinite Universe" is just flowery langague, that much is crystal clear.

But the other thing does seem to be 2-C.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Well, surviving the universe collapsing on itself along with the space-time continuum would be a Low 2-C dura feat, meaning it would scale to Granzemboa's AP, which scales to TTGL due to being equal to Granzemboa

 

[Joseph619]

Wasn't the Multidimensional Labyrinth considered as an illusion on this site?

Actually in the show it was never stated to be illusion or telepathy. And why would writer describe illusion as series of universes? It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Joseph619]

Whether Anti Spiral creating multiverse labyrinth is an illusion or not, creating the Super Spiral Universe (which is also maintained by Anti Spiral's energy) is a Low 2-C feat at least.

 

[Joseph619]

Also for Regenerationn, not sure what this qualifies

 

[Ryukama]

2-C seems fine to me based upon what is in this thread.

Also if this character was broken down on a quantum level and regenerated himself from that, I think that would be very high end "High Regenerationn."

 

[DaFritzi]

The "Infinite Universe" is just flowery langague.

^True, but since 2 out of 3 current theories regarding the size of the universe support infinite size, shouldn't we assume infinite space until it is stated that it is not? (Just a suggestion, since this could derail the thread, pls answer on my wall if your interested in discussing this, ignore it if not)

@Joseph, your last screenshots are from Lazengan Overload, is that right? In that case it would rather be high level energy absorption (which I think he already has). However I think we should give TTGL a regen class. I don't know which though, as long as Simon is alive he can create a new TTGL from his energy, even if the previous one gets completely destroyed. Wouldn't this also be type 8 immortality reliant on Simon?

Also once we are done with this we have to add the abilities the smaller versions have to the bigger ones. E.g. 4-D omnipresential attack, BFR, reactive evolution, size manip etc. (especially STTGL lacks most of his abilities)

Also we should make a note on the TTGL and STTGL pages, that Simon + crew have to be considered as well when debating a vs-thread with either of this two robots, unless stated otherwise.

About STTGL. I made a quick calc scaling speed feats of Granzeboma to the size of STTGLs giga drill and ended with a speed of "at least 44 trillion ly per second". Would be cool if one of the calc group could confirm this, than we would have a definitive number to add to his page.

 

[Ryukama]

^True, but since 2 out of 3 current theories regarding the size of the universe support infinite size, shouldn't we assume infinite space until it is stated that it is not?

We only assume universes to be the size of the observable universe unless statements otherwise. Or else every universe traveller in fiction has infinite speed.

Also an infinite sized 4-D universe is considered Low 2-C here. So if we rate them at Tier 2 they'll be at a similar if not greater level than saying their universe is infinite.

 

[DaFritzi]

Yeah, this was rather a question about how this wiki handles this.

Also could we implement a redirect so that searching ttgl or TTGL leads to Tengen Toppa Gurren Laganns page? Same for STTGL. If it's too much work, no worries, would just be convenient.

 

[Reppuzan]

@DaFritzi

Not as hard as you might think. I'll get on it.

 

[Reppuzan]

@DaFritzi

Both redirects should be done. Test them out for me.

 

[DaFritzi]

Is this correct so far?

TTGL post IBBS, Granzeboma: low 2-C both AP and Dura

STTGL, Super Granzeboma: at least low 2-C both AP and Dura (given they are depicted massively superior to their prior form)

AS: 2-C in AP, low 2-C in durability (i suggest a new key for AS himself, given he himself is more powerful than the mechs he created)

Simon (anime): low 2-C both AP and Dura

Simon (movie): at least low 2-C, possibly 2-C in AP; low 2-C in durability

Regarding Simons "possibly 2-C". By overpowering AS in h2h combat, he must have somewhat equal spiral power (maybe we can even write "likely 2-C", but I'm not sure). Thus he should be capable of performing similar feats like AS (like creating universes).

Regarding all the abilities and other stuff that is missing on their pages, I think I'll make a new thread once this one is concluded.

@Rep redirects work nicely, thank you very much

 

[The_Everlasting]

The "Infinite Universe" is just flowery langague, that much is crystal clear.
But the other thing does seem to be 2-C.

^ This.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with 2-C.

 

[Szutjo]

Have anyone checked the fan hypothesis about the energy for TTGL to move around dwarf the entire energy in the Observable universe? I believed i read that somewhere but can't remember and i also didn't see any calculation so may be it is just a saying but if it is legit shouldn't it upgrade the AP of TTGL before eating Infinity Big Bang Storm?


One more thing, after all these years i still find it very strange that an attack that only have the power of a Big Bang be named "Infinity Big Bang Storm". I had hope that It is something similar to the Nevada Gun from Marvel Ultimate Universe but this time create an entire multiverse to use all the Big Bang as weapon.


Can someone give these concern of mine a thought?

 

[DaFritzi]

@Szutjo. We decided that all characters in question are at low 2-C or higher, this means they are strong enough to create/destroy a 4D spacetime continuum or survive the collapse of such.

Therefore TTGLs total energy is already way beyond your first example. Even though I have to admit this theory is interesting and might even be true. For STTGL it is most certainly true.

Your second example is something we sadly cannot prove, since Infinity Big Bang Storm never finished as it was absorbed by Lazengan Overload. However I doubt it would have been multiversal and if we regard it as 3-A (possibly high 3-A), it wouldn't change anything about the rating currently in discussion.

 

[Dark649]

2-C seems fine, but remember that Lord Genome was affected by the Big Bang Storm.

 

[DaFritzi]

Lazengan Overload requires the user to undergo quantum breakdown to turn into energy himself. That way the user can channel energy he mixes with. So yeah if a person performs it, at least top end high regen would be needed in order to survive (which Lord Genome sadly didn't have)

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

2-C seems fine

 

[Takanome_shanks]

No he can block a attack who generate universe so low 2-C is fine and time manipulation

 

[DaFritzi]

We are talking 2-C only for Antispiral (and maybe a "possibly 2-C" for Simon via power scaling), there is enough of proof and reasoning above for this to have been accepted by numerous admins/moderators by now. I don't see a problem with this.

You are right about time manipulation though. Anti-spiral should have time manip in the form instant time travel (and via power scaling Simon should too). This comes from the Ashtanga-Class Ships that AS sent to fight super galaxy guren lagann.

@joseph Do you happen to have a screenshot of them jumping along the timeline as well?

To prevent derailing the thread I will adress that in the ability thread as well.

 

[Ryukama]

Why does Simon need a "possibly 2-C"? If he defeated someone who is 2-C and powerscales to him, then he himself is 2-C. No need for a "possibly." If Simon scales to Anti-Spiral, rating him as plain 2-C is what I think we should do.

 

[Joseph619]

Why does Simon need a "possibly 2-C"? If he defeated someone who is 2-C and powerscales to him, then he himself is 2-C. No need for a "possibly." If Simon scales to Anti-Spiral, rating him as plain 2-C is what I think we should do.

This is the same as kaguya being 5-B with ETTSB. Naruto and Sasuke both fought and beat her but they are Low 5B at most. Simon and crew can't create multiple universes, and also Anti Sprial is only Low 2C in combat. He is not 2C while fighting. Also AS is sorta glass canon like Kaguya

 

[Ryukama]

"Simon and crew can't create multiple universes"

Irrelevant if they can harm someone with multiple universe level durability without hax.

But why don't the Anti-Spiral's 2-C feats apply to him physically and he's only physically Low 2-C?

We consider creation feats to scale the same way a destruction feat would tier wise. Unless cases like Haruhi Suzumiya or Adam Conover where their AP feats are explicitly pure hax that doesn't scale to them physically.

 

[Joseph619]

This is similar to Kaguya's ETTSB who can create a new planet sized dimension and is 5B with that. However Kaguya herself is only Low 5B in combat. In regular combat anti Spiral is simply Low 2C Anti spiral creating multiple universes is a non combat hax/ability (it was also discussed previously in other threads on the wiki thats why he is 2C and Simon and crew do not scale). You can check out Kaguya's page to see the comparison

 

[Ryukama]

Well in Kaguya's case, her feat isn't counted due to inconsistency/outlier, her durability being shown as weaker and uncertainties regarding her feat. At least according to the profile.

What indicates that Anti-Spiral creating multiple universes doesn't scale to him physically? If there is nothing that explicitly suggests so, a creation feat is scaled to one's AP the same way a destruction feat would be.