Tekken CRT: Verse meets Updates

[BlackDarkness679]

We finally reached here to tackle the new game stuff, without further do, lets go over them

Hopefully i didnt forget anything and managed to cover as much as possible with this, it was tiring how to organize and how to split the sections and how many get anything left to them

Common/Near common
To get the obvious stuff out of the way

Limited Body Control: Some characters, precisely the male ones, can roid themselves up with the muscles, these are present even in cutscenes, so yeah, those who can make their muscles more buffed should get this

Intelligence upgrade (?): So in the series, this is a thing, all characters speak their native languages for the most part and they understand each other without a problem, also its not like its assumed they speak the same language in universe, as there have been some instances characters spoke in another language before, Jin and Hwoarang as seen earlier speak in english only that time so it debunks the assumptions all speak the same thing canonically, overall even in that game, they speak their respective languages outside that scene and you cant set characters to speak between two or more languages either or one specifically

Even the animals like bears can be understood and they make a sound only, what level of intelligence this may be, im not entirely sure, so i will like to hear some opinions for this if it counts for anything overall, most i asked told me its Gifted, but im open for any better levels suggested if it ammounts to anything as said earlier

Extra change

I wanna change a thing now while still at it, at the moment True Devil Kazuya is the name for Kazuya forms in 7th and 8th game along the movie on the profile, this name should apply only to the 8th game, because they officially name him in it as such, especially story mode, meanwhile in the 7th game and the movie they arent named as such and they arent anyway the same form as the one in the 8th game and creates confusion that way, as latter was achieved by absorbing someone to become complete with his devil form, unlike the formers which were done without absorbing anyone

Therefore its more appropiate to name those before Tekken 8 which are similar anyway, as Super Devil Kazuya, its much more fitting and they are pretty much that, a super powered devil form, same will apply with Jin form from the movie too, being called Super Devil Jin as its same deal with the formerly mentioned to what it is

Nina & Anna

Durability Negation: Pretty simple, Nina pretty much palm strikes the opponent in the chest and makes their heart explode, its obvious even from the visuals, let alone how the characters with their hands on the chest groaning, im including Anna to have it too cuz this is obviously an assassin technique/martial art move, we concluded in a previous CRT how both sisters learned the same styles and moves too from their bios so its not far fetched the other gets it too, unless its openly stated one has something unique over the other

Mishimas/Devil Gene Users common and non common

Surface Scaling: Jin manages to ride a motorbike vertically on a building and this ability should also be given to other Mishimas too, those being Kazuya, Lars and Jinpachi, Heihachi already has this from his own demonstration and dont think the others wouldnt be capable of it as well if two are able to do it


Self-Sustenance (Type 1): This should be shared with all Mishimas as well, both Jin and Kazuya fell from space in base form, after they lost their powers as said in the scene by Jin himself and so yeah this should shared with all part of the bloodline

Self-Sustenance (Type 2): Just later it came through my mind this existed when looking through some videos, so Jin at the end of the game ended up buried in sand since he killed Azazel and according to the next game, its been a few days since his disappearance and later we see of him, went for some time with no food or water and it shows, plus Azazel fight left him in rough shape, Heihachi already has it on the profile for a similar feat more or less although his lasted more, but the thing is, he points out about Mishimas being invincible and what not when questioned about the event he endured, so this should point out his they all can last long times like this, given Mishimas overall are very resilient, its fair to give them all this one


Limited Fourth Wall Break: Their clash shockwave makes the "Cameraman" camera to shake before it stabilizes, straight forward, Heihachi also displayed his own example, looking at the "Cameraman" and tells him next, Jinpachi as well has its own example, which is as meta as you get, along other characters


Empowerment: Devil Gene users can access their powers by an emotion, specifically desire, such as the desire to steal, destroy, rule for example, which makes them more powerful, which is why Kazuya was able to beat Jin in their fight back in chapter 1 when both were in devil form, let alone Kazuya was able to be more dominant, as well as why Jin couldnt access his devil form in chapter 2 and had his physicals decrease too as a result, he lacked desire for anything in particular like Kazuya did, which only in chapter 12 managed to get him the ability to transform again and access an awakened form too while at it, we are also told, Kazuya power grows ever stronger, so this emotion can make them grow in power, i looked for a definition on the phrase and this was the result "It is a past participle phrase and can be used to describe a continuous or ongoing action that has become stronger over time", so yeah its a very important thing in lore and reason how Kazuya > Jin when it was always the opposite for so long even in the 7th game


Awakened Power: So we are told that the devil gene responds during dire situations, which later Jin clarifies it it was protecting him in these situations, its user, although i wanna point out this doesnt apply to Kazuya at this point or Jin after getting his Awakened Devil Jin form in chapter 13, as this is for the times their devil self werent becoming part of the user vanishing away, Kazuya made his be gone and be a part of him, while Jin made him give the wheel to him no matter what so yeah, other like Reina and Kazumi can simply be given no issue, cuz there arent instance of them doing something like the other two


Deconstruction: Here Kazuya shown being capable of making Azazel not feel so good, as he is fading apart after striking him, this goes in line with Azazel being stated to have the power to reduce any being to ashes, let alone a claim from Kazuya to grind an opponent into dust, grind means to "reduce (something) to small particles", visual demonstration exists and so do statements of such as well, this is more then supported to be true and to claim it is anything else goes against what Kazuya does in the cutscene, its not anything else and statements cant mean anything other then that


Further Vibration Manipulation: While this is done by him in devil form, it should be available even for his human form, its just a stomp to the ground, plus the game has to balance him by making it available just in devil form due to Kazuya gaining unique devil stuff if accessing heat only, so it shouldnt be restricted from his base form (Kazuya only)


Aura (Overwhelming and Explosive): Not much to say, the visuals alone are self explanatory, something else to further add is this scene, that displays the power even more, being of humangous proportions in size and at the end causing a huge explosion bursting out


Negation: Jin and Kazuya during their clash managed to cancel each other power, removing it from both for good, as Jin confirms to us, Azazel could also pull a similar thing, it can be also seen Jin has no tattoo on his left arm anymore either, which was branded to him since tekken 3


Regeneration Negation: Heihachi displayed an instance of killing Kazumi, a devil gene user, by snapping her neck and as such being dead for good since then, the devil users have mid level regeneration to them, under such a circumstance Kazumi should still be alive and healed from this no problem, yet it wasnt the case, so this should count as negation of regeneration of this level

Pocket Reality Manipulation: Devil Gene users can basically pull Domain Expansions from Jujutsu Kaisen, as seen from Jin, Kazuya, Reina and Azazel too, by Jin again


Further Teleportation: This is how it looks like in the game for all who displayed it, nothing else to add, obvious enough


Summoning: Straight forward, nothing else to say (Kazuya only)


Portal Creation: For chains to exit out of them and attack others with those, basically a mini gate of babylon (Jin only)


Magma Manipulation: Lava was made to emerge from the piece of rock they fight on, while in space, Azazel already has on the profile this ability from causing an impossible geological event with lava too, so yeah


Weapon Creation: Can make a sword of energy, in the rage art for Devil Jin it can be seen near end to do a similar thing (Jin only)


Crystal Manipulation: Jin punches the opponent and makes crystals to emerge from behind, Kazuya also makes some to emerge from the ground, Azazel on the profile has it, but under summoning, should be its own thing separated from it, especially since, he can make some crystal around an opponent to trap them in place, Kazuya also shown he can even make a shield out of crystal


Further Healing: Kazuya even as a human at this point could heal himself, so he should get it (Kazuya only)


Further Energy Projection: Its already on the profile, but Devil Jin shown they can fire multiple of them at once, seen here and here, so it should be updated to their profiles


Life Manipulation, Holy Manipulation and Purification (Type 2): Angel Jin uses Kazama power in this form which according to Jun has these powers (Jin only)


Power Bestowal: Azazel creates devils, by giving humans a fraction of his power (Azazel only)


Clairvoyance (Psychic Navigation): Kazuya was able to locate Jin despite just arriving to the battefield on the island and being on an entirely different area inside a tree (Kazuya only)


Supernatural Willpower: The two things linked are the best examples of it, there are a few more, but these should cut it, one thing the series made clear is that Mishimas just dont know when to give up from a fight, even after using all their best things, raging their lungs out and keep hitting the other to the point they struggle to stand on their feet or try catching their breath, let alone keep going after tanking severe ammounts of punishment from each other, they should all gain it at this point


Weapon Mastery: Forgot to add this last time, Heihachi uses a sword here, even in his older arts he has some at him and we seen him use a gun too, Kazuya uses a gun here as well and even in his older arts he has one at him, thats pretty much it (Heihachi and Kazuya only)


Animal Manipulation: Forgot to add this last time, but Heihachi can ride a horse, as seen in the first thing from previous section, which is straight forward (Heihachi only)


Also one last thing, True Devil Kazuya has to have all the P&A of Azazel as he absorbed him to gain that form and its seen many of his stuff are displayed to this Kazuya too, likewise Angel Jin has to get all P&A of Jun Kazama as its stated he uses their clan power in the form and it reflects that as well, unfortunately Jun has no profile right now, but when she gets it in the future, i want it to be known that in this thread it was accepted and brought up about it for reference so that no separate CRT is made just to handle this matter due to lack of a profile currently


Resistances:


*Cold Manipulation: The whole fight takes place during a thunderstorm with heavy raining and tornadoes in background, while also sustaining injuries from their own blows to each other shirtless, doubt a normal person would even survive for this long like them with such weather with this little clothing and without hitting hypothermia under prolonged exposures, other Mishimas should also get this, as again, they are with no powers at this point and given they shown to handle extreme heat from enviroments, they should also gain for cold ones


*Wind Manipulation: Even when a huge tornado heads to Jin (as well as Kazuya in bad ending) and he is inside, he is not budging in the slightest and to be noted Jin had to fight Kazuya in their final battle for a long time at this point, so he isnt in his peak condition yet isnt fazed by the mass of air, same applies to Kazuya if he wins in his ending


*Biological Manipulation: This one proves that the devil gene prevents baldness, which apparently happens to Mishimas from 20s to 50s biologically, this was also confirmed officially to be true on top of it


*Deconstruction: As it can be seen Claudio with his light manages to pull a thanos snap on somebody with the devil gene, does it again with Zafina helping here, Devil Jin manages to take his light and laugh in his face unfazed, True Devil Kazuya also takes it fully head on off guard and is unfazed, for the most part except on the shoulder, yet not like Azazel gotten, but something to be noticed with Claudio, is that he can make his light more powerful, in the one with Devil Jin its more basic in look, with Azazel it can be seen he utilized a sigil and even earlier in the link to that can be seen to have used several of them, with True Devil Kazuya, the light was a huge one launched at him, let alone name dropped too which greatly differenciates it from his other ones, we saw how it performed vs him, so in conclusion there are various degrees of them

Initially i was gonna exclude Azazel, but then looking at Claudio light in various different scenes, they arent all visually the same exact thing and clearly are varying in power too, so i yeah they should all gain resistance to it, it can be pointed that a powerful enough attack can be more then they withstand going from Claudio varying degree of power it has in them, but the fact should still remain they can resist it, depends on the devil gene users level of power in their forms too

Kuma

Further Weapon Mastery and Explosion Manipulation: Just like last time, Kuma uses a salmon as a weapon, this time it can become a rocket and explode against the opponent though

Further Martial Arts: Kuma utilizes moves from Heihachi now, like here and here, he didnt had these moves before and uses them now to honor his master

Panda

Weapon Mastery: Can weaponize a beach ball for combat

Further Martial Arts: Panda shown utilizing moves from Xiaoyu, like here and here, things she didnt have before to her skill

Jack 8

Electric Field and Vibrations: His barrier is electrical in nature and so are the vibration of his stomp to the ground that makes the opponent lose balance

Immortality (Type 2) and Explosion Manipulation: He is still functionable even with his head ripped off and is able to explode it as well, he is even able to cause small explosions with his punches

Weapon Mastery, Energy Projection and Flight: The weapon he uses can fly on its own at him and shoot an energy beam at their opponent

Shown to be bullet proof

Lee

Limited Fourth Wall Break: Salutes and winks at us, the audience

Teleportation: The battle suit gives the user a teleport

Flight: His suit makes him fly like Ironman basically

Further Weapon Mastery and Explosion Manipulation: A grenade exploding in the shape of a rose, even a golf ball and a detonating bow, utilizes guns too, along swords

Yoshimitsu

Non Physical Interaction: Many of his moves are capable of splitting the opponent soul in pieces

Stat Amps and Aura (Explosive): The evil blade gave him an aura around the body which pushed Bryan up in the air when he jumped to punch him, as well as buffed him to the point he stomped Bryan, when earlier he was having issues with him

Bryan

Fire Manipulation: He can ignite fire from his fists now, even in gameplay it can be seen being a thing

Further Weapon Mastery: Just add a grenade and a steel beam as part of his arsenal of weapons he uses

Feng

Energy Projection: He can blast energy as a huge beam, obvious enough

Vibration Manipulation: His stomping can cause the ground to shake for the opponent to kneel down

Dragunov

Ice Manipulation: Can generate ice and shown to be capable of freezing as well

Limited Fourth Wall Break: He turns the "camera man" camera away from him

Lili

Limited Fourth Wall Break: Recently found it out, her eyes looks at the "Cameraman" when she was focused on the opponent earlier, it can be seen how her glance changes at where she stares at

Alisa

Limited Fourth Wall Break: Just like Lili above, she looks at the "Cameraman" when earlier she was focused on something else

Resistance to Electricity Manipulation: While she took damage, she was otherwise fine, considering she is robotic in nature

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus (Staff), Tonygameman, NaruRiasUzumaki, BoastJr, SamanPatou (Staff), Just_a_Random_Butler (Staff), Shadow-Ragna

Disagree:

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looking good to me so far.

 

[Tonygameman]

Uncontroversial to agree wlth.

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

I agree with OP's stated.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'll start by saying that anything not mentioned below counts as an agreement for me.

Limited Body Control: Some characters, precisely the male ones, can roid themselves up with the muscles, these are present even in cutscenes, so yeah, those who can make their muscles more buffed should get this

Paul's example is clear-cut, while I believe Law and Kazuya are just flexing, it doesn't seem to be any noticeable increase in size tbh.

Intelligence upgrade (?):

Hworang speaking in english in just one game might be a design choice on the developer's part, but aside from that, I guess a possibly Automatic Translation fits better.

Durability Negation:

Agreed, but maybe Pressure Points fits better, and the DN part is already implied. I'd out is a possibly for Anna, as Nina might have learned or developed that technique at a later time.

Surface Scaling: Jin manages to ride a motorbike vertically on a building and this ability should also be given to other Mishimas too, those being Kazuya, Lars and Jinpachi, Heihachi already has this from his own demonstration and dont think the others wouldnt be capable of it as well if two are able to do it

While still a case of Surface Scaling, Jin's feat is a byproduct of Vehicula Mastery, so I don't see why it should scale to all Mishimas, as if driving the mortcycle was an inherited ability.
I see your point for Heihachi's own demonstration, but at the same time I don't like to stretch things too far unless we have solid proof of scaling for genetic purposes or such, because with that logic you could extend the same ability to many other characters just as capable as Heihachi, since it doesn't appear to be biological or mishima-style related.

Self-Sustenance (Type 1): This should be shared with all Mishimas as well, both Jin and Kazuya fell from space in base form, after they lost their powers as said in the scene by Jin himself and so yeah this should shared with all part of the bloodline.

I'd write it as a possibly Space Survival. Someone more knowledgeable than me might clarify things, but the two of them might not have passed enough time in there to warrant the ability, idk. They should still have absorbed a fuckton of radiations anyway, so it might count as a limited SS anyway.

Self-Sustenance (Type 2):

Is there a way to pinpoint a rough amount of days? Because Jin might just have hit the threshold of resistance, as in not enough days without sustenance. Regardless, it's good for stamina at least.

Limited Fourth Wall Break: Their clash shockwave makes the "Cameraman" camera to shake before it stabilizes, straight forward, Heihachi also displayed his own example, looking at the "Cameraman" and tells him next, Jinpachi as well has its own example, which is as meta as you get, along other characters

The first camera shake doens't seem really a nod to the fourth wall on their own, but just a design choice, but with these things it's easy to mistake. Heihachi also doesn't seem to really look into the camera, but once again it could be. Jinpachi's clear as the daylight.

Awakened Power:

It's ok in itself, but we don't have a page for AP anymore, as it's been included under Stats Amp, and these showings now don't seem to translate just as in the same way, though we can simply word it that way, since in itself it's good.

Deconstruction:

O have serious doubts on this, because Kazuya's ability isn't supported anywhere else and I suspect it's either the way Azazel dies, a common trope in videogames when it comes to these evil beings blowing up, or a side-effect of Kazuya's absorption, in which case it could work but I'd limit it to the instances he absorbs devil gene power.
The other statements are clearly figures of speech, Azazel's refers to how strong he is (and his energy attacks but have a role in it) and Kazuya's is just akin to any other form of bragging, a more elaorate way to say he'll beat the shit out of Jin, rather than physically transmute him into dust.

Further Vibration Manipulation: While this is done by him in devil form, it should be available even for his human form, its just a stomp to the ground, plus the game has to balance him by making it available just in devil form due to Kazuya gaining unique devil stuff if accessing heat only, so it shouldnt be restricted from his base form (Kazuya only)

Is there a display of him doing it at a little higher distance? Right now it looks like he's stomping the enemy's foot.

Regeneration Negation:

This feels more like a case of PiS and the developers not really taking into account any precise past showing of regeneration. We also don't have any actual indication of this, other than it should make sense according to our standards because of our indexing work.

Summoning:
Portal Creation:

I'd cram these two under Crystal Manip and Weapon Creation, as it seems more like these objects are being created on the spot rather than pulled out from somewhere else.

Magma Manipulation:

This feels like simply and unrealistic depiction of rock and magma for the rule of cool tbh

Holy Manipulation

Unsure about this bit, as Devils and Angels in Tekken aren't really divine or demonic, aren't they? iirc Azazel just pummeled from the sky / another dimension, so it's more akin to an alien whose powers have been labeled as such.
https://youtu.be/ZHpv1AliaSM?si=9L6HgLoQBT0qoa6d&t=458

Weapon Mastery: Forgot to add this last time, Heihachi uses a sword here, even in his older arts he has some at him and we seen him use a gun too, Kazuya uses a gun here as well and even in his older arts he has one at him, thats pretty much it (Heihachi and Kazuya only)

I don't see any particular display of mastery or even just skill here, they either carry them or use them in a very basic way. I can accept them as optional equipment though.

Animal Manipulation: Forgot to add this last time, but Heihachi can ride a horse, as seen in the first thing from previous section, which is straight forward (Heihachi only)

Riding a horse isn't Animal Manipulation, unless you brainwash or charme said horse in some way. It doesn't even fit for Vehicular Mastery, as we don't know the degree of skill Heihachi has.

*Cold Manipulation:

Agreed but I either wouldn't extend it to all Mishimas or just put it as a likely, because at thatpoint we could say the same of all strong warriors, as I doubt Akuma, Ogre etc... would just start trembling, in-game narrative speaking, but it just isn't shown or connected in a direct way.

Limited Fourth Wall Break
Limited Fourth Wall Break: Just like Lili above

Not shure about this because it's super minor, but the label "minor" could fit as well.

Resistance to Electricity Manipulation: While she took damage, she was otherwise fine, considering she is robotic in nature

The fact she took damage implies she didn't resist, maybe the discharge wasn't strong enough to deal such a destructive damage or short circuit her.

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

Sorry, I'm late, I attended a meeting.

Limited Body Control: Some characters, precisely the male ones, can roid themselves up with the muscles, these are present even in cutscenes, so yeah, those who can make their muscles more buffed should get this

Some examples, I can agree on. Some examples are just straight up flexing though, I think.

Intelligence upgrade (?): So in the series, this is a thing, all characters speak their native languages for the most part and they understand each other without a problem, also its not like its assumed they speak the same language in universe, as there have been some instances characters spoke in another language before, Jin and Hwoarang as seen earlier speak in english only that time so it debunks the assumptions all speak the same thing canonically, overall even in that game, they speak their respective languages outside that scene and you cant set characters to speak between two or more languages either or one specifically

I'm not familiar enough with Tekken to determine if this is intentional or just game mechanics. If it is intentional, I don't know if it's due to intelligence or an in-universe mechanic or ability.

Even the animals like bears can be understood and they make a sound only, what level of intelligence this may be, im not entirely sure, so i will like to hear some opinions for this if it counts for anything overall, most i asked told me its Gifted, but im open for any better levels suggested if it ammounts to anything as said earlier

Without context, this sounds like an ability more than anything.

Durability Negation: Pretty simple, Nina pretty much palm strikes the opponent in the chest and makes their heart explode, its obvious even from the visuals, let alone how the characters with their hands on the chest groaning

Pressure Points, makes sense.

Surface Scaling: Jin manages to ride a motorbike vertically on a building and this ability should also be given to other Mishimas too, those being Kazuya, Lars and Jinpachi, Heihachi already has this from his own demonstration and dont think the others wouldnt be capable of it as well if two are able to do it

Agreed, but I am not sure about the second-half of this proposal. I'd only argue for those with their own demonstration, but not for those without. Unless it's been proven that this motorbike skill is somehow present in every Mishima???

Self-Sustenance (Type 1): This should be shared with all Mishimas as well, both Jin and Kazuya fell from space in base form, after they lost their powers as said in the scene by Jin himself and so yeah this should shared with all part of the bloodline

If they were there for long enough, sure.

Self-Sustenance (Type 2)

Unsure. But it's a good stamina feat.

Limited Fourth Wall Break: Their clash shockwave makes the "Cameraman" camera to shake before it stabilizes, straight forward, Heihachi also displayed his own example, looking at the "Cameraman" and tells him next, Jinpachi as well has its own example, which is as meta as you get, along other characters

Unsure for the first one, but the second example's good.

Empowerment: Devil Gene users can access their powers by an emotion, specifically desire, such as the desire to steal, destroy, rule for example, which makes them more powerful, which is why Kazuya was able to beat Jin in their fight back in chapter 1 when both were in devil form, let alone Kazuya was able to be more dominant, as well as why Jin couldnt access his devil form in chapter 2 and had his physicals decrease too as a result, he lacked desire for anything in particular like Kazuya did, which only in chapter 12 managed to get him the ability to transform again and access an awakened form too while at it, we are also told, Kazuya power grows ever stronger, so this emotion can make them grow in power, i looked for a definition on the phrase and this was the result "It is a past participle phrase and can be used to describe a continuous or ongoing action that has become stronger over time", so yeah its a very important thing in lore and reason how Kazuya > Jin when it was always the opposite for so long even in the 7th game

Wasn't that phrase used in the context of the clairvoyance, predicting he will bring the world to ruin? I thought it referred to his ominous glow, which grows ever stronger.

Awakened Power

Agree.

Deconstruction:

I'm on the fence with this one. The "to grind an opponent into dust" thing sounds more like he'll beat his opponent so hard rather than what you are suggesting.

Further Vibration Manipulation

I'm not sure.

Aura (Overwhelming and Explosive)

Looks fine.

Negation: Jin and Kazuya during their clash managed to cancel each other power, removing it from both for good, as Jin confirms to us, Azazel could also pull a similar thing, it can be also seen Jin has no tattoo on his left arm anymore either, which was branded to him since tekken 3

For the first one, I don't know the context, but seems fine? The Azazel one is very straightforward.

Regeneration Negation: Heihachi displayed an instance of killing Kazumi, a devil gene user, by snapping her neck and as such being dead for good since then, the devil users have mid level regeneration to them, under such a circumstance Kazumi should still be alive and healed from this no problem, yet it wasnt the case, so this should count as negation of regeneration of this level

Can I ask if there are other instances of him doing this?

Further Teleportation

Agreed. The one at 0:50 looks much better to use as an example.

Summoning

Crystal Manipulation?

Portal Creation: For chains to exit out of them and attack others with those, basically a mini gate of babylon (Jin only)

Does he make a portal for those chains to go through, or does he conjure those chains? Seems like the latter. At 4:25, it looks like he's making those circles to conjure the chains, but I could be wrong.

Magma Manipulation

This looks very cosmetic-like to me. But if Azazel has it for the same reason, I guess it's fine?

Weapon Creation

Fine with me.

Crystal Manipulation: Jin punches the opponent and makes crystals to emerge from behind, Kazuya also makes some to emerge from the ground, Azazel on the profile has it, but under summoning, should be its own thing separated from it, especially since, he can make some crystal around an opponent to trap them in place, Kazuya also shown he can even make a shield out of crystal

Further Healing: Kazuya even as a human at this point could heal himself, so he should get it (Kazuya only)

Further Energy Projection

Agreed

Life Manipulation, Holy Manipulation and Purification (Type 2): Angel Jin uses Kazama power in this form which according to Jun has these powers (Jin only)

Agree. As for Holy, only if this Angel actually means he's a divine being, and not just for title/name sake.

Power Bestowal: Azazel creates devils, by giving humans a fraction of his power (Azazel only)

Clairvoyance (Psychic Navigation): Kazuya was able to locate Jin despite just arriving to the battefield on the island and being on an entirely different area inside a tree (Kazuya only)

Weapon Mastery: Forgot to add this last time, Heihachi uses a sword here, even in his older arts he has some at him and we seen him use a gun too, Kazuya uses a gun here as well and even in his older arts he has one at him, thats pretty much it (Heihachi and Kazuya only)

Sure.

Animal Manipulation: Forgot to add this last time, but Heihachi can ride a horse, as seen in the first thing from previous section, which is straight forward (Heihachi only)

I disagree.

*Cold Manipulation: The whole fight takes place during a thunderstorm with heavy raining and tornadoes in background, while also sustaining injuries from their own blows to each other shirtless, doubt a normal person would even survive for this long like them with such weather with this little clothing and without hitting hypothermia under prolonged exposures, other Mishimas should also get this, as again, they are with no powers at this point and given they shown to handle extreme heat from enviroments, they should also gain for cold ones

Agreed, but I am not sure if this should extend to others.

Everything from the resistances section onward, I pretty much agree with, though I'm uncertain about the Electricity one for Alisa.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Sorry, I'm late, I attended a meeting.

Better late then ever

Some examples, I can agree on. Some examples are just straight up flexing though, I think.

For Kazuya i found another video where it zooms more and shows frames of it

Which ones you say are flexing only?

I'm not familiar enough with Tekken to determine if this is intentional or just game mechanics. If it is intentional, I don't know if it's due to intelligence or an in-universe mechanic or ability. Without context, this sounds like an ability more than anything.

Didnt knew there was an ability for it on wiki as pointed above earlier last reply, so scratch that on intelligence, though to clarify again, you cant set up the characters language, all will speak their native and nothing allows to change them, so Jin and Hwoarang cutscene is a rare moment characters speak a language other then their mother one and only time they do, besides that even in that game they speak overall their native

Thats why i said in universe its not assumed all speak the same thing and the diversity is only for us, but anyway as pointed in the last comment above, apparently there is an ability for this so i guess it takes care of that

Agreed, but I am not sure about the second-half of this proposal. I'd only argue for those with their own demonstration, but not for those without. Unless it's been proven that this motorbike skill is somehow present in every Mishima???

After what was pointed earlier im changing my mind on this, so im fine with just Jin to get it, Heihachi has his own feat already accepted for a long time

If they were there for long enough, sure.

In chapter 1 Jin shows another demonstration by sinking in an ocean down and seems unfazed, like not drowing or that he needs air and he didnt held his breath either, while in base form and stays quite a while there

Unless the Space Survival ability fits better to cover that as suggested above instead

Unsure. But it's a good stamina feat.

In the Middle East buried in sand with no clothes (given he had his leader outfit against Azazel) for a few days (between 2-3 according to google meaning of the word) should be type 2 self sustenance, dont think anyone in Jin place would have survived under these conditions

Unsure for the first one, but the second example's good.

The screen shaking like that, gotta be limited 4th wall break, else there wont be a point theirs specifically doing like that from a clash of their blows, other characters whom have a clash of blows doesnt even shake at all

Also by second you mean Heihachi or you meant Jinpachi? cuz former is 2nd one

Wasn't that phrase used in the context of the clairvoyance, predicting he will bring the world to ruin? I thought it referred to his ominous glow, which grows ever stronger.

In context it talks about Jin losing his light, which from earlier we know it means his devil powers, thats in chapter 2, Zafina refers to that, meanwhile Kazuya grew more powerful, normally Kazuya shouldnt be above Jin, as it was always other way around and the clarification in chapter 4 being by specific emotion to access their powers, its not talking of any clairvoyance

I'm on the fence with this one. The "to grind an opponent into dust" thing sounds more like he'll beat his opponent so hard rather than what you are suggesting.

With the display of it way earlier in story, it has to be that, im aware it also has this meaning, but when they shown the capability on screen, at that point has to be literal

I'm not sure.

Given earlier i was told it needs to be shown from some distance if that is indeed a thing, here it is, Kazuya can make opponents kneel down even from a distance with the stomp, it is an example of vibration manip

For the first one, I don't know the context, but seems fine? The Azazel one is very straightforward.

For the first one the scene before the previous thing linked

Can I ask if there are other instances of him doing this?

The only time in the series we see him do it

Agreed. The one at 0:50 looks much better to use as an example.

Its the same thing as the one linked by me, 0:50 just shows him doing it after a move of his

Crystal Manipulation?

They already have their individual examples, as listed on this ability, Summoning gotta be more appropiate given they are appearing mid air, where as when they physically touch something is when crystals pop up, unlike here

Does he make a portal for those chains to go through, or does he conjure those chains? Seems like the latter. At 4:25, it looks like he's making those circles to conjure the chains, but I could be wrong.

Devil Jin shows also its via portals

This looks very cosmetic-like to me. But if Azazel has it for the same reason, I guess it's fine?

Unless its possible to have lava emerge from a falling rock in outer space or lava in general in space, that gotta be an ability, especially cuz he specifically triggers it by his power

Agree. As for Holy, only if this Angel actually means he's a divine being, and not just for title/name sake.

Asuka Kazama on her profile has it under holy manipulation already accepted and unlike Jun and Jin, she isnt aware of them nor shown much use of them unlike these two, so i just went with what was on hers allowed at some point in the past, gotta be divine in nature to be accepted? first time i hear about this

Agreed, but I am not sure if this should extend to others.

If Jin and Kazuya can while with no powers anymore, i dont see why Heihachi or Lars for example shouldnt have it too, unless they showns specifically only a certain member can resist, which as fair as im aware dont think there was any

Everything from the resistances section onward, I pretty much agree with, though I'm uncertain about the Electricity one for Alisa.

What about limited one for Alisa? She is a robot, so normally she should be shut down or unable to function at all, while she is still up

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Paul's example is clear-cut, while I believe Law and Kazuya are just flexing, it doesn't seem to be any noticeable increase in size tbh.

Look up for Kazuya when he is on left side and at 0.x25 speed, his whole arm increases in mass, not just the biceps, check from Butler above

Law cant possibly keep himself flexed as he swings his weapons

Is there a way to pinpoint a rough amount of days? Because Jin might just have hit the threshold of resistance, as in not enough days without sustenance. Regardless, it's good for stamina at least.

I explained at Butler above, see there

The first camera shake doens't seem really a nod to the fourth wall on their own, but just a design choice, but with these things it's easy to mistake. Heihachi also doesn't seem to really look into the camera, but once again it could be. Jinpachi's clear as the daylight.

Explained at Butler above, see there

Heihachi looks behind him and says next after talking to the opponent earlier, there is nobody else to refer himself to behind, especially in stages where only he can fight at

O have serious doubts on this, because Kazuya's ability isn't supported anywhere else and I suspect it's either the way Azazel dies, a common trope in videogames when it comes to these evil beings blowing up

Absolutely not......

Azazel there slowly vanishes in smoke with Kazuya, other instances of him being killed dont match with Kazuya smoking him literally

, or a side-effect of Kazuya's absorption, in which case it could work but I'd limit it to the instances he absorbs devil gene power.

Absolutely not at all......

Either the devil gene or not, absorbption is nothing like what he does to Azazel there

The other statements are clearly figures of speech, Azazel's refers to how strong he is (and his energy attacks but have a role in it)

Hard no, only times we are told about how powerful he is is when they mention he can destroy the planet, this aint one of them, especially when the phrase says specifically says about 2 different powers, with first one being accepted already for a long time

Kazuya display is a new thing never seen before and falls in line with what we know from Azazel being specifically said that he has that capability, i aint accepting any reason against this anymore after having the scene with Kazuya existing there

Also Claudio almost did the same thing on Kazuya as stated for his stuff, all explained in there, it aint anything else supposed to be

and Kazuya's is just akin to any other form of bragging, a more elaorate way to say he'll beat the shit out of Jin, rather than physically transmute him into dust.

i explained at Butler above, check there

Is there a display of him doing it at a little higher distance? Right now it looks like he's stomping the enemy's foot.

Check at Butler above

I'd cram these two under Crystal Manip and Weapon Creation, as it seems more like these objects are being created on the spot rather than pulled out from somewhere else.

Went over at Butler, check above

This feels like simply and unrealistic depiction of rock and magma for the rule of cool tbh

Check above at Butler

Unsure about this bit, as Devils and Angels in Tekken aren't really divine or demonic, aren't they? iirc Azazel just pummeled from the sky / another dimension, so it's more akin to an alien whose powers have been labeled as such.

Only character belieavable as an alien is Ogre and thats from bios suggesting it, Azazel is a diety from another plane of existence and Angel is stated not to be a part of Kazuya either, Devils and Angels are supernatural in nature

Agreed but I either wouldn't extend it to all Mishimas or just put it as a likely, because at thatpoint we could say the same of all strong warriors, as I doubt Akuma, Ogre etc... would just start trembling, in-game narrative speaking, but it just isn't shown or connected in a direct way.

Whether Ogre, Akuma, etc would or not is irrelevant here, if they dont show on screen a display, no reason to claim they can have it, a character can be strong yet not resist something

We have no reason to believe other Mishimas cant last like these two whom have been at it for long without powers at hand, in general they share the same powers and resistances unless precisely shown something is unique to somebody

Not shure about this because it's super minor, but the label "minor" could fit as well.

A character eyes moving to look at the "camera" is an example of it, there is nothing in universe for them to glance at to begin with, i didnt put it as straight up as they dont show anything more clear anyway

The fact she took damage implies she didn't resist, maybe the discharge wasn't strong enough to deal such a destructive damage or short circuit her.

i pointed at Butler something on this, look over there, a robot would shut off or not function to begin with

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

For Kazuya i found another video where it zooms more and shows frames of it

Which ones you say are flexing only?

Alright, never mind, I agree.

Didnt knew there was an ability for it on wiki as pointed above earlier last reply, so scratch that on intelligence, though to clarify again, you cant set up the characters language, all will speak their native and nothing allows to change them, so Jin and Hwoarang cutscene is a rare moment characters speak a language other then their mother one and only time they do, besides that even in that game they speak overall their native

Thats why i said in universe its not assumed all speak the same thing and the diversity is only for us, but anyway as pointed in the last comment above, apparently there is an ability for this so i guess it takes care of that

After what was pointed earlier im changing my mind on this, so im fine with just Jin to get it, Heihachi has his own feat already accepted for a long time

In chapter 1 Jin shows another demonstration by sinking in an ocean down and seems unfazed, like not drowing or that he needs air and he didnt held his breath either, while in base form and stays quite a while there

Unless the Space Survival ability fits better to cover that as suggested above instead

Probably Self-Sustenance, considering that you specified that they also went underwater for long periods of time, and the space thing is a supplementary feat to solidify the ability further.

The screen shaking like that, gotta be limited 4th wall break, else there wont be a point theirs specifically doing like that from a clash of their blows, other characters whom have a clash of blows doesnt even shake at all

Also by second you mean Heihachi or you meant Jinpachi? cuz former is 2nd one

For the first one, it is difficult for me to know if that was the intention or not, that's why I said I was unsure.

Oh, and yes, I meant the third one, it's super apparent. The second one, I am quite unsure, but it's at least better than the first example.

With the display of it way earlier in story, it has to be that, im aware it also has this meaning, but when they shown the capability on screen, at that point has to be literal

I will agree if there's a display of feat, and that there is an actual deconstruction ability, and not just a byproduct or a consequence of some other ability that results in a similar effect to deconstruction.

Given earlier i was told it needs to be shown from some distance if that is indeed a thing, here it is, Kazuya can make opponents kneel down even from a distance with the stomp, it is an example of vibration manip

Could you show a timestamp where the attack doesn't quite hit the opponent's feet or comes very close? Because to me it suggests that its connection is due to the hitbox.

They already have their individual examples, as listed on this ability, Summoning gotta be more appropiate given they are appearing mid air, where as when they physically touch something is when crystals pop up, unlike here

Fine with me.

Devil Jin shows also its via portals

Okay, never mind, the 7:40 mark looks like he has portals and he calls the chains from there.

Unless its possible to have lava emerge from a falling rock in outer space or lava in general in space, that gotta be an ability, especially cuz he specifically triggers it by his power

Maybe it's fine, but I am not sure, I don't trust my judgement on that one.

Asuka Kazama on her profile has it under holy manipulation already accepted and unlike Jun and Jin, she isnt aware of them nor shown much use of them unlike these two, so i just went with what was on hers allowed at some point in the past, gotta be divine in nature to be accepted? first time i hear about this

If the Devils and Angels in Tekken are truly divine or angelic and demonic, then I will agree. Regarding your second point, the Holy Manipulation page specifies that it is the ability to manipulate divine or sacred energy, which aligns with what I meant by divine.

If Jin and Kazuya can while with no powers anymore, i dont see why Heihachi or Lars for example shouldnt have it too, unless they showns specifically only a certain member can resist, which as fair as im aware dont think there was any

The second-half of your statement is why I argued that it shouldn't be extended to others, maybe their capacity to resist cold are unique to them? Maybe at most, I'd argue for a "likely" for the others...

What about limited one for Alisa? She is a robot, so normally she should be shut down or unable to function at all, while she is still up

There's also the possibility that the discharge simply wasn't strong enough to cause a short circuit, but I guess l'm fine with limited.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

For the first one, it is difficult for me to know if that was the intention or not, that's why I said I was unsure.

I can provide examples of other characters clashing blows like them and be seen how Jin and Kazuya clash makes the "camera" shake

While with others that detail isnt occuring, again realistically there shouldnt be any camera that records the cast fight at all, yet some characters affect it as if someone is there

Oh, and yes, I meant the third one, it's super apparent. The second one, I am quite unsure, but it's at least better than the first example.

I explained in my previous reply above more on that one

I will agree if there's a display of feat, and that there is an actual deconstruction ability, and not just a byproduct or a consequence of some other ability that results in a similar effect to deconstruction.

Well i provided it already in OP and all so yeah

Could you show a timestamp where the attack doesn't quite hit the opponent's feet or comes very close? Because to me it suggests that its connection is due to the hitbox.

i already did with that link, in that one its not even point blank and is from a distance and opponent still gets kneeled down

If the Devils and Angels in Tekken are truly divine or angelic and demonic, then I will agree. Regarding your second point, the Holy Manipulation page specifies that it is the ability to manipulate divine or sacred energy, which aligns with what I meant by divine.

Did so earlier on my reply from earlier

The second-half of your statement is why I argued that it shouldn't be extended to others, maybe their capacity to resist cold are unique to them? Maybe at most, I'd argue for a "likely" for the others...

Im fine with a likely too for rest

There's also the possibility that the discharge simply wasn't strong enough to cause a short circuit, but I guess l'm fine with limited.

There isnt indication or showings of power put into it and considering its in an all out war, Jack wouldnt do a a light one even if there was levels of such

 

[SamanPatou]

Look up for Kazuya when he is on left side and at 0.x25 speed, his whole arm increases in mass, not just the biceps, check from Butler above

Kinda yes, I can accept it.

I explained at Butler above, see there
Explained at Butler above, see there

I'd give it a possibly to Jin just because it's not super sure tbh, he might stand just at the threshold of survivability.
I can accept Heihachi, I'm still unsure about the shake, but it's not that offensive anyway.

Absolutely not......
Azazel there slowly vanishes in smoke with Kazuya, other instances of him being killed dont match with Kazuya smoking him literally
Absolutely not at all......
Either the devil gene or not, absorbption is nothing like what he does to Azazel there

He dies in a pretty similar way tbh, one time he pops into bugs, the other not, but he still turns into smoke / dust kinda like Kazuya does to him. I need more evidences of him being able to turn anyone into dust, especially because we are going by visuals alone performed on a supernatural character who doesn't abide to human biology.

Hard no, only times we are told about how powerful he is is when they mention he can destroy the planet, this aint one of them, especially when the phrase says specifically says about 2 different powers, with first one being accepted already for a long time

Reducing the world to ashes can mean anything, saying he's literally going to transmute everything to dust is a lit bit silly, because once again we have no other indication of him doing that.

Kazuya display is a new thing never seen before and falls in line with what we know from Azazel being specifically said that he has that capability, i aint accepting any reason against this anymore after having the scene with Kazuya existing there

Kazuya's statement is clearly a figure of speech, it's a pretty common form of bragging, he could have said anything else. Given how unclear it is, I went to look up if there was a transcript of the game's dialogues in japanese to try and find what exactly says, and while I couldn't find it, I noticed several threads on reddit and the likes pointing out how Bandai kinda slipped all over the place with such figures of speech in dialogues, twisting the meaning a little or just taking too many liberties (something I also noticed while hearing Claudio's italian compared to the subs). So I wouldn't be so eager to trust Kazuya's "I'll grind you to dust" as an academic exposition of his abilities.

Also Claudio almost did the same thing on Kazuya as stated for his stuff, all explained in there, it aint anything else supposed to be

That's a whole different ability though.

i explained at Butler above, check there

I still believe it's a case of unrealistic depiction of rock, but I can find a middle ground with Heat Aura or something, since they don't really manipulate magma but the release of their power seems to heat up and melt the rocks, although it's still kinda weird and seemingly not something the devs meant to convey.

Check at Butler above

It's fine then, your clip shows him doing at a distance.

Went over at Butler, check above

Whether they appear from nowhere or are shown coming out from what looks like a portal, my issue is that they don't seem to match the fundamentals of the ability. Summoning and Portal implies there's another place filled with crystals and chains from which they pull them, instead of creating them on the spot, which seems to be what they do, especially Jin's golden chains which are seemingly energy constructs and disappear after the attack.

Only character belieavable as an alien is Ogre and thats from bios suggesting it, Azazel is a diety from another plane of existence and Angel is stated not to be a part of Kazuya either, Devils and Angels are supernatural in nature

Being from another plane of existence doesn't really make you a deity and angel might be something else. Holy and Unholy manip are kind of controversial abilities that went on the edge of deletion more than once for how arbitrary and unclear they are, so we've grown much more strict on them. There's also often cases of beings called devils and angels without really belonging to a divine pantheon or else, in Tekken I've always seen them as forces of evil and good but not really like deities. I can settle for a possibly, if anything.

Whether Ogre, Akuma, etc would or not is irrelevant here, if they dont show on screen a display, no reason to claim they can have it, a character can be strong yet not resist something
We have no reason to believe other Mishimas cant last like these two whom have been at it for long without powers at hand, in general they share the same powers and resistances unless precisely shown something is unique to somebody

The first line is my issue, they share genetics but it doesn't mean they are 1:1 copies of each other, and this resistance is more tied to personal thoughness. I could accept it for Heihachi because we've had hints this with his battle at the volcano, but I wouldn't give it to Lars and Reina yet, as it's not a straight up biological property of the family.

A character eyes moving to look at the "camera" is an example of it, there is nothing in universe for them to glance at to begin with, i didnt put it as straight up as they dont show anything more clear anyway.

As above, more of a matter of choice at the end of the day, I'm not against having it on files, although I wouldn't personnaly put it.

i pointed at Butler something on this, look over there, a robot would shut off or not function to begin with

Not really, machines are insulated and built to resist to a degree, maybe Jack's electricity wasn't that strong, or didn't get transmitted that well or else, it's not as straightforward as, say, water on fire.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I can accept Heihachi, I'm still unsure about the shake, but it's not that offensive anyway.

I explained further on Butler last comment a little

He dies in a pretty similar way tbh, one time he pops into bugs, the other not, but he still turns into smoke / dust kinda like Kazuya does to him.

No he doesnt, its one thing you blow into pieces after a physical strike and another to be hit by a charged blow that makes your body vanish into smoke

None of the Tekken 6 scenes match with what Kazuya done to him there, its a clear visual difference, let alone Azazel still speaks or shows last moments of being alive from Kazuya, while the scenes from 6 show him immediately done

Reducing the world to ashes can mean anything, saying he's literally going to transmute everything to dust is a lit bit silly, because once again we have no other indication of him doing that.

Nowhere says in the jap bio its reducing the world, it talks of his appearance which is causing fear which even the game had few moments on that and that he has a power to reduce something to ashes and Kazuya shown he can do that, someone with the devil gene like him

That's a whole different ability though.

The visuals are the same in both instances as a result, even if done through different means by the characters in question, so this is nitpicking one is denied when it has visual and statement of such a power

I still believe it's a case of unrealistic depiction of rock, but I can find a middle ground with Heat Aura or something, since they don't really manipulate magma but the release of their power seems to heat up and melt the rocks, although it's still kinda weird and seemingly not something the devs meant to convey.

Why would a power being realistic or not matter, unless they work under real life physics like Fire Force world does, realism shouldnt be a factor, especially when in regards to this series

Jin causes lava to gush out and erupt as if it was a volcano, in outer space, also Azazel has it on his profile for causing a geological impossibility product of his power, why Jin demonstration is doubted for unrealism when someone with same power source did an unrealistic thing as well by this logic

Whether they appear from nowhere or are shown coming out from what looks like a portal, my issue is that they don't seem to match the fundamentals of the ability. Summoning and Portal implies there's another place filled with crystals and chains from which they pull them, instead of creating them on the spot, which seems to be what they do, especially Jin's golden chains which are seemingly energy constructs and disappear after the attack.

He punches with crystals out of the opponent back and slices with huge energy swords, the chains in questions arent there anymore since the first blow landed, even before the chains snatch the opponent they are seen coming briefly from a portal behind Angel Jin

If they were constructs of energy only, the portals wouldnt be needed in question whenever pulled out with them

And for the summoning thing, to appear in mid air and vanish just like that too is more akin to a summon, the crystal manip from all 3 were done by physical contact with something which i already pointed a while ago too

Being from another plane of existence doesn't really make you a deity and angel might be something else.

Still doesnt make him an alien which isnt implied like with Ogre, Azazel is described as a demon coming from a higher dimensional plane, point of the matter is, his origins are supernatural as for Angel given she isnt meant to be a good side of Kazuya, means she has to be an actual angelic entity, cuz the series doesnt describe her as being something else and what else can she be

Holy and Unholy manip are kind of controversial abilities that went on the edge of deletion more than once for how arbitrary and unclear they are, so we've grown much more strict on them.

As far as i looked at it before the thread, nothing striked its being strict of what qualifies like with other things

Asuka has it on the profile listed and accepted as of now speaking, so why those who put it to use more then her and aware of it are denied of it?

The first line is my issue, they share genetics but it doesn't mean they are 1:1 copies of each other, and this resistance is more tied to personal thoughness. I could accept it for Heihachi because we've had hints this with his battle at the volcano, but I wouldn't give it to Lars and Reina yet, as it's not a straight up biological property of the family.

Reina stood in that same rain ever since she "died" in chapter 10, which end credits show

Lars is the only human outside his father from the family, why would he not have it? When they even drew a parallel to him when trying to hold out Kazuya in chapter 11

If the resistance is personal toughness as claimed that still would mean they get it, cuz Mishimas trait is their resilience which all shown in their own right

Not really, machines are insulated and built to resist to a degree, maybe Jack's electricity wasn't that strong, or didn't get transmitted that well or else, it's not as straightforward as, say, water on fire.

To assume its potency was lower is to suggest Jack wasnt trying to kill her which makes no sense under that assumption, also Alisa isnt your typical robot like those irl, so the first part mentioned assumes something on a equivalence not supported as such

 

[BoastJr]

I will watch the thread until a final verdict is made but agree for now

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

I will watch the thread and I agree with this CRT.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I will add when i get the chance what was accepted so far from here

 

[SamanPatou]

I explained further on Butler last comment a little

I know only they make the screen shake, I still believe it's not really 4th wall breaking on their part, but it's still rather ininfluential and not outside of reason.

No he doesnt, its one thing you blow into pieces after a physical strike and another to be hit by a charged blow that makes your body vanish into smoke
None of the Tekken 6 scenes match with what Kazuya done to him there, its a clear visual difference, let alone Azazel still speaks or shows last moments of being alive from Kazuya, while the scenes from 6 show him immediately done
Nowhere says in the jap bio its reducing the world, it talks of his appearance which is causing fear which even the game had few moments on that and that he has a power to reduce something to ashes and Kazuya shown he can do that, someone with the devil gene like him

Azazel dies in a pretty similar nonetheless and iirc he doesn't have any showing of using such deconstruction abilities. The fact he already dies in a "supernatural" fashion a bunch on times (event in the campaing iirc, even if he explodes there) strengthens my perception of Kazuya not really having ability, especially because we don't have any other showings of him deconstruction someone or something who isn't supposed to die like that.

Also, I still believe his statement at the end is not a reference to his abilities, as neither the wordings nor the context connects in any way. I went over to translate the original sub 宇宙の塵にしてやろう and while most of its translations give "I'll turn you into space dust", it's still heavily spoken in a not literal way.

The visuals are the same in both instances as a result, even if done through different means by the characters in question, so this is nitpicking one is denied when it has visual and statement of such a power

No, because the visuals are different even in this case, Claudio literally turns him into gray dusy that slowly fades away, while against Kazuya he dissolves into purple smoke that remains aloft as a cloud, before he inhales him.
And the different mean does count, since Claudio uses exorcist magic specifically meant to vanquish evil.

Why would a power being realistic or not matter, unless they work under real life physics like Fire Force world does, realism shouldnt be a factor, especially when in regards to this series
Jin causes lava to gush out and erupt as if it was a volcano, in outer space, also Azazel has it on his profile for causing a geological impossibility product of his power, why Jin demonstration is doubted for unrealism when someone with same power source did an unrealistic thing as well by this logic.

The point here isn't realism or not, but the fact I don't see any indication of them being the directly causing the event, as in actually manipulating the magma instead of unleashing their power which caused magma to erupt as an earthquake just because the devs wanted it to be so.
Azazel's feat is different, as the npc specifically refers to the geological even occurring and saying it shouldn't be possible, clearly indicating a supernatural origin.

He punches with crystals out of the opponent back and slices with huge energy swords, the chains in questions arent there anymore since the first blow landed, even before the chains snatch the opponent they are seen coming briefly from a portal behind Angel Jin
If they were constructs of energy only, the portals wouldnt be needed in question whenever pulled out with them
And for the summoning thing, to appear in mid air and vanish just like that too is more akin to a summon, the crystal manip from all 3 were done by physical contact with something which i already pointed a while ago too

To appear and vanish in mid air can be just a result of those being created in that very moment. The "portals" also might no be connected to another place, but just the spot from where they are created. Angel Jin's rage art shows them appear first from glowing "magic symbols" and then from his back. My issue here is that these portals only look like such, but don't have any indication of leading elsewhere.
About Kazuya, we don't have any reason to believe they appear from another place, because otherwise we could say the same of the crystals he evokes from the ground. It is also rather redundant, Crystal Manipulation already covers it, I don't see why we have to clog the profile with something that is both dubious and doesn't add anything.

Still doesnt make him an alien which isnt implied like with Ogre, Azazel is described as a demon coming from a higher dimensional plane, point of the matter is, his origins are supernatural as for Angel given she isnt meant to be a good side of Kazuya, means she has to be an actual angelic entity, cuz the series doesnt describe her as being something else and what else can she be
As far as i looked at it before the thread, nothing striked its being strict of what qualifies like with other things
Asuka has it on the profile listed and accepted as of now speaking, so why those who put it to use more then her and aware of it are denied of it?

I could settle for a possibly, I guess, because we still have no clear information on their very nature.

Reina stood in that same rain ever since she "died" in chapter 10, which end credits show
Lars is the only human outside his father from the family, why would he not have it? When they even drew a parallel to him when trying to hold out Kazuya in chapter 11
If the resistance is personal toughness as claimed that still would mean they get it, cuz Mishimas trait is their resilience which all shown in their own right

Mishima resilience is a thing, but they aren't built 1:1 on everything. Reina can have it, she sleeps for a very long time in there, somehow, so ok I guess, but Lars is the most dubious one, I'm generally against doing such scalings without strong implications.
If we were to make a similar comparison, without plunging in whataboutism, Baki also has a lot of this "genetic scaling", but even then it's more a matter of potential to be unlocked through training and determination, not a natural gift.

To assume its potency was lower is to suggest Jack wasnt trying to kill her which makes no sense under that assumption, also Alisa isnt your typical robot like those irl, so the first part mentioned assumes something on a equivalence not supported as such

Alisa not being your typical robot only makes the assumption stronger, because she's clearly much more advanced than any real life machinery. But still, being ran by an external electric current doesn't automatically lead to a shutdown or a shortcircuit anyway.
Had Jack released an MP or was he stated to having actively tried to shut her down, then I would have agreed, but here it's just an attack like any other.


Also, since we are going through a little contention, I'd like to ask @DarkDragonMedeus, who has previously commented, to give a second look and provide further input on their part.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I know only they make the screen shake, I still believe it's not really 4th wall breaking on their part, but it's still rather ininfluential and not outside of reason.

They cause it by their clashing at the end of the day, there is no camera realistically to record them battle and there is no reason for the view to be shaken by it either, i put it as limited anyway like most of them here

Reina also has her own example too, stomping Namco logo in pieces as it cuts back to her, outside the others examples

Azazel dies in a pretty similar nonetheless and iirc he doesn't have any showing of using such deconstruction abilities. The fact he already dies in a "supernatural" fashion a bunch on times (event in the campaing iirc, even if he explodes there) strengthens my perception of Kazuya not really having ability, especially because we don't have any other showings of him deconstruction someone or something who isn't supposed to die like that.

Where in the blazes is it similar when other instances are literally blowing in pieces of his body, while the other is being turned into smoke, this is ridiculous at this point with the constant persistance of claiming they are identical

Also Azazel has a statement of being able to do it, which you dismiss it under the premise of "we didnt see him do it", might as well remove any power or info described through words only from profiles, like Giorno willpower hax cuz "never saw him do it" or anime/manga databooks like "this move can do that and is that fast"

And dont pull me the "wrongs dont do a right" or they have other standards different, its the same exact thing, im sick of these double standards some franchises get on a matter, with excuses against it ti boot too

No, because the visuals are different even in this case, Claudio literally turns him into gray dusy that slowly fades away, while against Kazuya he dissolves into purple smoke that remains aloft as a cloud, before he inhales him.
And the different mean does count, since Claudio uses exorcist magic specifically meant to vanquish evil.

Both instances are deconstruction visually and you gonna act like his sacrificial attempt when it him Kazuya didnt have his shoulder with smoke coming out exactly like what Kazuya done?

You saw what effects it had on Azazel, yet you wanna tell me Kazuya doesnt have it just cuz its done on Azazel which has no relevance, meanwhile a bio mentions clear as day it talks of deconstruction, this absurd requirement to be used on someone else to prove it else its not accepted is simply foolishness to prevent it being a thing

The point here isn't realism or not, but the fact I don't see any indication of them being the directly causing the event, as in actually manipulating the magma instead of unleashing their power which caused magma to erupt as an earthquake just because the devs wanted it to be so.

If a character causes fire, ice, electricity or wind to start somewhere from their power, thats blatantly them having the ability and i will ask this as nicely as possible, what scene are you watching? Magma erupting like of a volcano from the piece of rock falling down in outer space, after unleashing his power, unless you can make lava spew in space now somehow, this is just beating a dead horse as well against it, for no actual reason other then personal doubt

Azazel's feat is different, as the npc specifically refers to the geological even occurring and saying it shouldn't be possible, clearly indicating a supernatural origin.

Oh and the above is not as impossible, maybe even more given the conditions, this is nitpicking now

Mishima resilience is a thing, but they aren't built 1:1 on everything. Reina can have it, she sleeps for a very long time in there, somehow, so ok I guess, but Lars is the most dubious one, I'm generally against doing such scalings without strong implications.

Remembering now, in the T5 DR opening Heihachi gets out the rubble from the assault with raining occuring there and on the profile its already seen and accepted how long he has been there, so yet another example actually of staying in the cold of a rain, further proves they can resist cold, like they do heat

If we were to make a similar comparison, without plunging in whataboutism, Baki also has a lot of this "genetic scaling", but even then it's more a matter of potential to be unlocked through training and determination, not a natural gift.

As far as my knowledge of Baki goes for the Hanmas, Yujiro is the pinnacle of it, Jack did surgical enhacements and took many pills for getting his body that way, while Baki himself only when he got older achieved certain things

Training and what not is to develop skills or how to handle certain type of opponents like the time he has mental training against a giant mantis, only genetic thing he gained later was the back

That doesnt anyway compare to Mishimas which several times shown most powers or resistances are geneticall shared, unless its something specific that really none shown to have a hint of sharing with the other

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Ok i added on the profiles the stuff that were agreed/accepted by all, besides Mishimas and devil gene users, till all thats left from them is handled and then add all of them all at once when its wrapped up

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's a lot of text that I am a bit lost, but the parts agreed by other staff are good to keep for sure. As for others, I suppose uncertain. But I suppose listing who agreed or questioned with one for each addition might be a good idea.

 

[SamanPatou]

They cause it by their clashing at the end of the day, there is no camera realistically to record them battle and there is no reason for the view to be shaken by it either, i put it as limited anyway like most of them here
Reina also has her own example too, stomping Namco logo in pieces as it cuts back to her, outside the others examples

As said, I wouldn't put it myself, as I believe it's just a nod of the devs without actual intervention of the characters themselves, but all in all it doesn't hurt.

Where in the blazes is it similar when other instances are literally blowing in pieces of his body, while the other is being turned into smoke, this is ridiculous at this point with the constant persistance of claiming they are identical
Also Azazel has a statement of being able to do it, which you dismiss it under the premise of "we didnt see him do it", might as well remove any power or info described through words only from profiles, like Giorno willpower hax cuz "never saw him do it" or anime/manga databooks like "this move can do that and is that fast"

The point here is not the power not being shown, but both statements being flowery language. "reducing the world to ashes" and "grinding to dust" are common figures of speech, not literal exposition of the abilities, as it would be in the case of a power being explained as such by text even if not shown.
And Azazel dying in similar ways in other instances suggests he meets a supernatural death unlike other normal beings. This also comes only at the very end of the battle, when Azazel is already beaten down and Kazuya delivers the killing blow before sniffing him up.

Both instances are deconstruction visually and you gonna act like his sacrificial attempt when it him Kazuya didnt have his shoulder with smoke coming out exactly like what Kazuya done?

One is just Kazuya simply punching hard the supernatural higher dimensional demon which then fades into smoke without a word being spoken, the other is Claudio using what has been repeteadly stated to be an exorcise attack from his powers which are repeteadly stated to be meant to vanquish evil creatures.

You saw what effects it had on Azazel, yet you wanna tell me Kazuya doesnt have it just cuz its done on Azazel which has no relevance, meanwhile a bio mentions clear as day it talks of deconstruction, this absurd requirement to be used on someone else to prove it else its not accepted is simply foolishness to prevent it being a thing

Azazel's bio isn't a textbook on his powers, it just says he's going to bring ruin to the planet, "Reducing the world to ashes" is cleary figurative talk to indicate the destructing he brings.

If a character causes fire, ice, electricity or wind to start somewhere from their power, thats blatantly them having the ability and i will ask this as nicely as possible, what scene are you watching? Magma erupting like of a volcano from the piece of rock falling down in outer space, after unleashing his power, unless you can make lava spew in space now somehow, this is just beating a dead horse as well against it, for no actual reason other then personal doubt
Oh and the above is not as impossible, maybe even more given the conditions, this is nitpicking now

Normally those elements follow as the characters intentionally bring them down, here it's just a side effect of them unleashing the power that to me is nothing more than rule of cool.
But since we're just going back and forth, I can settle for a possibly, if anything.

snip

I see it more as a potential within the Mishima bloodline, otherwise you can say they should all have the same strength, stamina, abilities etc... only because of that, as if training and else wouldn't matter.
But since we're once again going back and forth with the same arguments and it's not too out of the window, maybe a likely for the resistance could pass.

The only thing I'm not settling for with a compromise is Deconstruction, as I don't see it neither as a likely or possibly, that just doesn't really exist to me.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

The point here is not the power not being shown, but statement being flowery language. "reducing the world to ashes" is common figures of speech, not literal exposition of the ability, as it would be in the case of a power being explained as such by text even if not shown.

"A grotesque being that appeared in the present day as a result of the contact between two world-shaking evil stars, namely Jin Kazama and Kazuya Mishima, who possess the Devil Factor. Its appearance overwhelms anyone who sees it, and it has the power to reduce any being to ashes."

What reducing the world to ashes exists here? None, you made up something unrelated to the bio text in question

For clarification, since i actually know this verse better on this site then anyone else, no matter what some staff may try to tell around otherwise on it

Azazel has indication of his AP in the games themselves, in prologues or story modes to even pachinko machines, regarding destroying Earth/planet as power indication, which is a different matter entirely

Which i have issues on how they are treated here thanks to you and few others in the past with a mindset that should be buried in the past forever

The text above mentions for the most of it information the games tell as well, it showed up in the present because of Jin and Kazuya war with each other and they are claimed to be the evil stars in question with both possessing the same power that Azazel is the source of, found out later

Next it mentions he has fear manip, the overwhelm thing can be used for that in meaning too, which few characters point out in support of it, then you have "it has the power to reduce any being to ashes", what is vague of this? What is flowery language here? Character bios are meant as information to clue people on them

And Azazel dying in similar ways in other instances suggests he meets a supernatural death unlike other normal beings. This also comes only at the very end of the battle, when Azazel is already beaten down and Kazuya delivers the killing blow before sniffing him up.

For the millionth time, they DONT match

Neither Wang or Baek in their endings when they deliver a killing blow show him to start vanishing in smoke, he blows into pieces of his body, doesnt become smoke unlike with Kazuya which is a slow process where he is still alive during it, unlike the previous 2 where his glow fades off and suddenly bursts shortly after, yet that is somehow identical

One is just Kazuya simply punching hard the supernatural higher dimensional demon which then fades into smoke without a word being spoken

Looking again at the scene, Kazuya shoots energy with his fist charged of it and goes out behind him, so it wasnt even a regular blow unlike the previously mentioned who did just a physical hit with nothing else

The other is Claudio using what has been repeteadly stated to be an exorcise attack from his powers which are repeteadly stated to be meant to vanquish evil creatures.

The effects lead to the same thing, again ignoring the fact that in story mode both Kazuya and Claudio attack made essentially the same entity to slowly vanish into smoke, difference being only the means to achieve it

Claudio exorcism, the chains in Tekken 4 used by Heihachi in his ending, Kazama power, Angel herself, all are things meant to counter/neutralize the Devil Gene, yet not all are the same thing and each is different, yet they all achieve the same purpose

Azazel has a clear indication of reducing a being to ashes and Kazuya demonstrates such a capability, clear as day and dots connect

You can beat this dead horse for eternity, im not gonna agree with your opinion for this and not seeing it as such based on headcanons with other things at all and that is final

Azazel's bio isn't a textbook on his powers, it just says he's going to bring ruin to the planet, "Reducing the world to ashes" is cleary figurative talk to indicate the destructing he brings.

Your quote was proven false and not even remotely the way you make it out earlier, nothing you said here is true in the slightest

I see it more as a potential within the Mishima bloodline, otherwise you can say they should all have the same strength, stamina, abilities etc... only because of that, as if training and else wouldn't matter.

You can see it yourself i didnt give to all the same stuff, unless more of them shown the same thing too which makes sense others have it as well in return, unless they were specifically proven not to at all, for the most part they all share most of the stuff together

Let alone you saw me not argue anymore on some stuff either, im not unreasonable but neither im bending the knee on some stuff just cuz some find it weird to do so, like it or not thats how things stand deal with it

 

[BlackDarkness679]

That's a lot of text that I am a bit lost, but the parts agreed by other staff are good to keep for sure. As for others, I suppose uncertain. But I suppose listing who agreed or questioned with one for each addition might be a good idea.

At this point i guess only thing left is deconstruction as a power to be had for those with devil power from a visual showing and info given from a bio about it

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Its been 4 days i need the last things left wrapped up so this thread can conclude already

 

[SamanPatou]

Apologies, I forgot to send a reply.
I mixed up the reducing the world to reducing any being, but my interpretation still stands in my opinion, it being that the bio refers to the strength and power of Azazel to overcome any opponent, not literally turning them into dust. And since we are being very very literal with the things, as in Azazel's death in T6 not being comparable to what happens to him in T8, we also need to acknowledge that Kazuya isn't turning him into ash either.
And for all that's worth, you can pointlessly keep accusing me of making headcanon or being in bad faith, but I still stand by the opinion the evidences presented are insufficient, both materially and theoretically (as in statements and wording).
We're just bashind heads at this point and without further material we're just repeating ourselves. At this point, I guess it falls into members and staff opinion.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think we're good now IMO.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I think we're good now IMO.

Is deconstruction passing too or not? Cuz i cant tell from this comment which side it is

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I personally have no real contentions against it tbh.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I personally have no real contentions against it tbh.

Alrighty then

Then overall everything else by the rest was agreed on too and only one person disagreed with most in the long run till conceding as it went on back and forth

I will add whats left now, including the last thing that needed a tie breaker soon when i get access to a laptop

 

[Theglassman12]

I don't see how that's deconstruction, do you have any evidence that what Azrael does and what Kazuya does is an explicit ability and not just their raw power destroying someone?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You again....and with your usual....

 

[Theglassman12]

And? Do you have anything new to justify actual deconstruction or are you still relying on Kazuya's general line of beating someone up or grinding them to dust or Azazel burning someone away?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

And? Do you have anything new to justify actual deconstruction or are you still relying on Kazuya's general line of beating someone up or grinding them to dust or Azazel burning someone away?

The fact you still run this gaming theory of yours and choose to be unreasonable as always is getting really boring

For the Nth time, Azazel has no burning or fire ability to do that in favor of your delusional theory, its literal deconstruction talked there among fear hax in same sentence which was accepted

And Kazuya displays on screen deconstruction with the victim in question vanishing into dust and another character with their own deconstruction accepted here, shown similar effects to what Kazuya done

 

[BlackDarkness679]

And this time DDM favors it as being a thing and its a recent reply, so you have nothing in here to claim he thinks otherwise from a second look at it

And i dont have time for your shenanigans during the wraps after weeks of waiting, i got stuff to do irl

 

[Theglassman12]

Except for the fact that your translation doesn't back up Azazel's power of deconstruction as it's stated to be more of raw power than anything. Kazuya's power of killing Azazel and his body disintegrating doesn't look any different than any of the tekken 6 endings where anyone else that killed Azazel results in his body disintegrating, so no this doesn't scream deconstruction, just that he dies in this specific way.

Ok? Saman disagrees with you and even Butler finds the ability skeptical so your obsession with one staff vote here is really stupid when this isn't a universal agreement. By "I don't have time to for your shenanigans" I assume you mean you don't want to even try to give solid evidence on deconstruction? Because your attitude to me and Saman in this thread doesn't do you any favors.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Admittedly, Deconstruction often seems a bit broad based on the general definition. While I am fine with being outvoted or it not being deconstruction, I have seen profiles get deconstruction for more simplistic or generic types of powers or abilities.

I have not remembered any content revisions reclarifying what deconstruction is or if there are sterner requirements for the ability after that. But it is fairly common for characters to have the ability via simple combustion related powers.

 

[Theglassman12]

@DarkDragonMedeus if those other profiles have the same type of faulty reasonings then I'd argue they shouldn't have deconstruction either, especially if they do it with raw power akin to Dragon Ball and not some special thanos snap ability.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Except for the fact that your translation doesn't back up Azazel's power of deconstruction as it's stated to be more of raw power than anything.

Cite one thing in the translation remotely implying AP/physical strength or shut it, you never ever see Azazel make anybody cause someone become dust by strength which is never supported and the bio is in reference to his supernatural powers not physicals which tell a completely different thing when referring to straight up AP

Kazuya's power of killing Azazel and his body disintegrating doesn't look any different than any of the tekken 6 endings where anyone else that killed Azazel results in his body disintegrating, so no this doesn't scream deconstruction, just that he dies in this specific way.

Yeah no at this point i have literally no patience with this shit from you and Saman anymore to tolerate, are you two simply choosing to have this degree of stubborness and insertions of definitive undisputable opinion ?

The T6 instances has him die by a physical blow where he explodes in pieces! Kazuya in T8 blasts him with a charged beam turning into smoke, where in tarnation are these two remotely similar?!

We really are entertaining this bullshit of blowing in pieces being identical to someone vanishing to dust, this is the equivalent of saying Cell self destruct regen = Buu smoke regen

Ok? Saman disagrees with you and even Butler finds the ability skeptical so your obsession

Butler said he agrees if there is a display and isnt a byproduct/consequence of something else to which i explained to him isnt as such, so how about you cut off with your way of counting votes

By "I don't have time to for your shenanigans" I assume you mean you don't want to even try to give solid evidence on deconstruction? Because your attitude to me and Saman in this thread doesn't do you any favors.

Ofc you assume even these as well by what you only think....no it means i have other stuff to do irl which you wouldnt care about at all and instead i gotta somehow make time to argue here back and forth over obvious stuff that somehow to select few is hard to grasp about it

And wanna know why you and Saman im not having a liking to? Due to both of you being universally known as incredibly hard minded staff which ISNT based on haters, misunderstandings or whatever excuse you give me for it

The reality of it is that off site you two are simply viewed in a bad light overall by how you judge verses left and right and what you justify as right and wrong and then universally most will side you simply cuz of your positions while others dont matter in voting later, cuz screw non staff users having a right in the end

On top of past instances both of you had against me that didnt help to like either of you any better in the long run and wished i didnt have to interact in general with either of you, other verses left and right get away with all sorts of stuff, receive help to the teeth, easy acceptance, meanwhile lesser verses if they attempt anything similar, we just toss the hammer down against them under what assumption? Obvious double standards and favoritism?!

 

[Theglassman12]

The fact that nothing about it says it has a special ability and more on it's power itself. Plus none of your other scans remotely back up the idea that Azazel can turn people to ash like a thanos snap.

Keep insulting me and Saman, you're not gonna get anything accepted with that kind of attitude. Tomato tomoto, the point is it's literally the same form of process that Azazel dies, the only difference between 6 and 8 is that Kazuya just absorbs Azazel's power into himself. Also nice apples to oranges comparison when Cell and Buu are explicitly two different beings with separate forms of regenerations with a clear limit on where both stops, where Azazel is still Azazel.

And yet you still claim that it's somehow universally accepted that it's deconstruction, again not really buying it.

Coolio, an appeal to motive fallacy you pulled on me and Saman, great job, you just proved to me that you don't have any argument beyond what you've already made and just resort to making fallacies now to push what you want.

 

[Planck69]

@BlackDarkness679 No more of that. Argue your point as you will but don't get hostile over it.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

@BlackDarkness679 No more of that. Argue your point as you will but don't get hostile over it.

What to argue and for what? Just so in the end this individual just keeps saying "no, no, no, imo its not like that i know better" and be outweighted simply cuz his staff status gives him credibility by default without calling anything out from him?