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Tarmiel's Ocean Proper Calc (Please Comment)

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Not to mention Galan tanked this:

http://217.23.10.62/manga/Nanatsu-No-Taizai/0206-007.png

http://217.23.10.62/manga/Nanatsu-No-Taizai/0206-008.png

While being naturally susceptible to it and Tarmiel getting scaled to 10Teratons.

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Weaker feats do not disqualify stronger feats from being applied. And Galan has them.

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As for the Archangels: Durability doesnt mean you have to no-sell attacks. It means you can take whatever AP is thrown at you and keep going.

I still find a tad strange, if not hilarious, that stuff is being brought up about Galand slicing Tarmiel but this is somehow not addressed as if it isn't of equal importance in showing Raven's point.

Like he said, Galand had the annoying bad luck of getting the laughing stock and measuring stick job, and not coming out of it in a pretty way.
 
Are you sure about that? Especially in recent times with several staff gettting banned? (I'm not talking about Kep, he did nothing wrong of course)

I'd beg to differ on that. Some Staff have been known to do just this, so don't treat them as innocent. While user led revisions have gone through just fine in the past.

It's certainly better than the trash heap I came from (Spacebattles) I'll give you that. But for that reason, you'll forgive me if I'm especially vigilant when it comes to making sure decisions don't go through soley because a Staff Member willed it. That stuff happened all the time back over there.
 
It's not being addressed because I wasn't disputing that feat.
 
Sariel tanks Monspeet's flamebird, albiet the exact method isn't shown, but there's no tornado visual effect until after he already took it. There's also no Regenerationn visual.

Tarmiel describes Derieri's first punch as "barely stong enough to kill a fly", and the others only warp his body.

Tarmiel is cut in half by base Galand.

Sariel is completely unharmed by Fraudrin, with no signs of having used Regenerationn, but there's also no indication that he did not use Tornado.

Tarmiel is easily blasted through by Monspeet's attack.

Sariel's eye is pierced by Derieri.

Sariel gets hit by an Ark, here he only shows to be regenerating from Derieri's attack, so I'd say he wasn't all that harmed. He also is directly hit, so he probably didn't use Tornado, and it wouldn't matter if he did.

Sariel and Tarmiel are heavily burned (or blasted, not sure if it's a heat attack) by Indura Monspeet.

I'll get to the Estarossa fight soon.
 
Regarding Sariel being hit by Fraudrin, I believe the implication there is that Fraudrin only hit his Tornado-shield as Fraudrin's hand was cut up.
 
It looks like the blood spray comes in after, but I'll add to the edit.
 
@VersusJunkie

The staff here are mostly trying to be as reasonable, polite, and respectful as they can. They are far from tyrannical, and as such I think that you are overreacting. I just want to avoid complete chaos that results in almost nothing getting done.

Also, I tried my best to sort out the mess relating to the Discord group and The Everlasting, even though I am autistic and as such rather bad at handling complicated drama.
 
Anyway, it is best if we stop derailing the thread.
 
I agree. We should make a content revision thread for the high tier characters and discuss it there.
 
@Damage3245

Can you give a TLDR summary of the current on-topic discussion and its conclusions?
 
Peter1129 said:
Oh so Low 6-B+ Danafor calc vaporization End. If so than it would be something like this
God Tiers (Since we are not using the multipliers) (At least 6-B Likely far higher): Supreme Deity and Demon King

Top Tiers (At least 6-B): Hawk Mama (Potentially higher), The One Escanor, 3C and 4C Mael, 5C and normal Assault Mode Meliodas, and Full Grown Induras

High Tiers (6-B): The Archangels, 2C Mael, New Induras, Zeldris w/ God, Post-Revival Demon Mark Meliodas, and True Form Masters

Mid-High Tiers (Low 6-B - Low 6-B+): Stronger Ten Commandments such as Base Zeldris, Monspeet Derrieri, Drole, Gloxinia, Base Masters, and Unsealed Demon Mark Meliodas

Low-High Tiers (High 6-C+ Likely Low 6-B): Weaker Ten Commandments Galand, Melascula, Grayroad, And Fraudrin
Click to expand...
I believe this was the last summary of estimated character stats after the Ocean calcs were discarded.

There was some debate about characters specific rankings and about the God Tiers not being High 6-B due to multipliers.

I don't think there is a consensus on conclusions yet but that would need to be covered by a Revision thread.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
I did not merely refer to the feat, but to this.
Weaker feats do not disqualify stronger feats from being applied. And Galan has them.
Click to expand...
Except that Galand has been consistently treated as one of the weakest Ten Commandments. He got annhilated by Unsealed Meliodas, and Escanor at dawn, both are weaker than the Archangels. Scaling Galand like this makes little to no sense.

Either Tarmiel is a glass cannon, or it is just an outlier.
 
I don't think Tarmiel was a glass cannon in that instance Versus; it's just that Galand didn't really hurt him because Tarmiel has elemental intangibility.

It's like a logia getting cut in half in One Piece; they just reform like Tarmiel did.
 
Logias disperse. Tarmiel got cleanly cut in half. Similar to how he got cleanly burned through from Monspiets flames.There was no elemental intangibility present, as we later saw how it looks when he turns intangible.

The difference between regenerating via element and factually being elementally intangible are vast and need to be separated.

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I agree with VersusJunkie54s proposal of him being "Likely low 6B" in base.
 
@Damage

Okay. Thanks for the summary.
 
> Tarmiel got cleanly cut in half.

Just like how he got cleanly stabbed through the chest by Estarossa's hand?
 
Here's the rest of the Tarmiel and Sariel durability feats.

Estarossa either cuts out their midsections, or just covers them with Darkness. I think it's the former given it's a killing saucer.

Estarossa punches through Tarmiel. He's clearly not using Elemental Intangibility here, as Tarmiel's chest clearly moves in when he punches.

Tarmiel is only scratched by Truth Estarossa, also showing that latter can go through the seal around Tarmiel. He then withstands a hit.

Sariel's bones are broken by Truth Estarossa.

Sariel and Tarmiel are easily cut through by 3 C Estarossa.

Now, a note for the above. They describe their human forms as fragile.

Tarmiel has to dodge attacks from 3 C Estarossa.

Tarmiel and Sariel appear to be in the blast radius of Mael's attack.

A slightly destabilised Tarmiel is oneshot by 4 C Mael.
 
The difference is that you don't see any sort of damage from Estarossa, just a hand through a chest.

Like with Sariel getting his eye pierced, Tarmiel is regenerating from actual damage, not scoffing and becoming water to reassamble.
 
Danafor Meliodas is superior to Galand,yes but it's because Mels magic>Galans and Mel's physicals>Galands however Meliodas used a magical attack for the danafor feat which is the important part and Galands physical attributes are > Meliodas magic. Mel is 3K in magic and 50K in strength,Galand is 1K in magic and 24K in Strength. His physical attacks scale to low 6B+ and he should be 6B in Critical over for picking up Tarmiels attack etc
 
Darkness is portrayed as comparable to these characters physically, which Meliodas used to destroy Danafor. Even sometimes superior in Estarossa's case.
 
> Meliodas used a magical attack for the danafor feat

Not really. Demons can still use their darkness when entirely depleted of magic.

Also, Meliodas only had a power level of about 32,000 when he wrecked Galand.
 
George Hatziantoni said:
Danafor Meliodas is superior to Galand,yes but it's because Mels magic>Galans and Mel's physicals>Galands however Meliodas used a magical attack for the danafor feat which is the important part and Galands physical attributes are > Meliodas magic. Mel is 3K in magic and 50K in strength,Galand is 1K in magic and 24K in Strength. His physical attacks scale to low 6B+ and he should be 6B in Critical over for picking up Tarmiels attack etc
Click to expand...
No.....

That's.... not how that works. You just pulled those ratings out of nowhere
 
@Damage I think Meliodas said he was a little weakened at that time as well.
 
I am severely overworked, so I am unsubscribing to this thread now. You can place a note on my message wall when you reach a conclusion.
 
He's significantly lower in PL then than the other upper level Commandments that have better feats against the Archangels.

If the difference isn't really that much, I think we get into a situation where we have weird backwards scaling with Galand and others in the first part of the series.
 
Last night, I did a lot of research to try and find some differences in how Sariel and Tarmiel acted in the present to how they acted during the battle in the Holy War.

Sariel and Tarmiel are portrayed as being far more casual during the Holy War, even in the presence of 4 members of the Ten Commandments at the time. I'm aware that Fraudrin doesn't really count, but he still is in the lower level power range regardless. This is lore consistent with 2 Archangels = 2 Commandments. The two sides were roughly even, with neither side really holding a massive advantage.

The Archangels did not use their Graces to the same degree as they used on Mael as Estarossa though. Against Mael, they were instantly serious and there's even an example of this. Sariel initially used his abilities with the same level of potency as he did during the war against Mael. Then he showcased the true level of his ability by knocking Mael away easily. In the past, they relied more upon the basic Goddess abilities such as Ark instead of their Graces.

It appears to me that the Archangels were mostly suppressed in the past and that their real power vastly exceeds those that they were fighting against. In my opinion, Galand as well as the others were fighting the Archangels not at the fullest extent of their abilities.

That being said, the current proposed scaling is mostly correct. I would think that the only characters who should be rated as "At least 6-B" should be the God tiers. Top tiers should still be in 6-B because the difference between baseline and the end of the tier is 14x. The new scaling would look like this:

God Tiers (Since we are not using the multipliers) (At least 6-B): Supreme Deity and Demon King

Top Tiers (6-B): Hawk Mama (Potentially higher), The One Escanor, 3C and 4C Mael, 5C and normal Assault Mode Meliodas, and Full Grown Induras

High Tiers (6-B): The Archangels, 2C Mael, New Induras, Zeldris w/ God, Post-Revival Demon Mark Meliodas, and True Form Masters

Mid-High Tiers (Low 6-B - Low 6-B+): Stronger Ten Commandments such as Base Zeldris, Monspeet Derrieri, Drole, Gloxinia, Base Masters, and Unsealed Demon Mark Meliodas

Low-High Tiers (Low 6-B): Weaker Ten Commandments Galand, Melascula, Grayroad, And Fraudrin

I believe that this fits our scaling mostly with the calc we've been given as well as the feats we have available in context.
 
I still think it's better to have the weaker Commandments at High 6-C+ Likely Low 6-B simply due to the scaling. Gloxinia and Drole who are some of the stronger Commandments in the 50k range can only lightly injure Unsealed Demon Meliodas who is Low 6-B+. So I think it's safer to keep the weaker Commandments like Base Galand who is only 27k at High 6-C+ with Critical Over Galand who is 40k being Likely Low 6-B.

Also I'm pretty sure we could use at least 6-B for the Top Tiers since they are ridiculously more powerful than the High Tiers. The God Tiers also have statements of being unable to stay in the normal world so making them at least 6-B likely far higher is fine.
 
If the general consensus is for the weaker Commandments to be High 6-C+, that's fine. I was mostly following Raven's suggestion. Low 6-B Critical Over Galand works because it would also make sense with Post Training King and Diane being scaled there as well. There are also numerous changes to other characters, but that's off the top of my head.

It might be better to treat Galand's base as separate from the others. He got stomped by Meliodas and we do know that he's still significantly weaker than the others at least in just his base.

I do not think that the Top Tiers are anywhere near 14x stronger than their counterparts to place them near the end of the tier though. Since we are scaling from a Low 6-B+ feat, unless there is another feat that places them higher we should just have them stronger than baseline 6-B, but still in the tier.

In terms of in-verse power levels, this means:

20,000 PL range = High 6-C+

30,000 & 40,000 PL range = Low 6-B

50,000 & 60,000 PL range = At least Low 6-B, likely Low 6-B+

88,000+ = 6-B
 
The 6-B High Tiers came from the Archangels being twice as strong as the Commandments. Which would make anybody starting from 88k 10 Teratons.

It's probably going to be more like this.

20k-36k+ range High 6-C+

39k-49k+ range Likely Low 6-B or just plain Low 6-B

50k-54k range At least Low 6-B

56k-61k range Low 6-B+

88k+ range 6-B
 
That's fine as well, I'm just shooting out ideas for how we can do this. I don't think we need to break up the 50K PL's that much though. They were all capable of dealing damage to Unsealed Demon Meliodas at that point.
 
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