Tarmiel's Ocean Proper Calc (Please Comment)

[RavenSupreme]

Escanor during his fight with Estarossa withstood his own regular attack - which would usually be scaled to 5TT - amplified by 2 - which puts it to 10TT. This was at the beginning of the fight.

Estarossa then managed to overpower Escanor till the later reached 11/11.30.

This was Base Estarossa, managing to overpower someone who can facetank 10TT of potency.

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Both Archangels had no problems dealing with Base Estarossa. Hence them being higher than the 10TT Escanor from 100 chapters ago get scaled to is warranted.

Fun fact: Using that approach we would reach 20TT AM Mel / The One / Mael / King / Gods etc., since later we had another FC multiplier between Mels and Escanors fight. Doesnt matter much tho.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

(I'm on my phone rn)

i'm pretty sure estarossa didnt overpower escanor i think you're forgetting that a single punch from the latter brought the former to his knees it was thanks to full counter that estarossa was able to fight him

 

[Captain_Torch]

Wait, why are 50-54k "At least Low 6-B, likely 6B" and 56k-61k "range 6B" if we are scaling to a Low 6-B calc of a 56k meliodas?

 

[Peter1129]

Oh the full counter 2x multiplier thing was accepted well than I agree with some of the scaling. But still I think the 16k-27k characters like Base Galand should just be just High 6-C+ since they are ridiculously weaker than the others. The ones around 30k-36k like Melascula should be At least High 6-C+ Likely Low 6-B.

Also I'm pretty sure Estarossa didn't overpower Escanor. He just kept full countering his attacks.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Wait, why are 50-54k "At least Low 6-B, likely 6B" and 56k-61k "range 6B" if we are scaling to a Low 6-B calc of a 56k meliodas?

We have 2 x2 Multipliers.

 

[Captain_Torch]

@Raven

But wait... I understand if people above 56k Meliodas get the x2 multipliers, but why are 56k characters above the calc they scale to?

 

[RavenSupreme]

Because they, Dolor and Gloxinia are good examples, fought with, injured, fend of for a little while and endured attacks from True form Masters (Chandler). 2 Masters have been said to be enough to bridge the gap left by 9! commandements.

 

[Captain_Torch]

Aren't the masters around the same strength as demon mark meliodas, which had the 5 teraton feat?

 

[Peter1129]

@Captain Torch This is what's happening right now.

Escanor tanked a full countered attack from himself which is 5 Teratons x2 = 10 Teratons. And Estarossa can still damage him so he also scales. Therefore everybody that's in the 60k range would be 6-B.

 

[RavenSupreme]

In base form maybe. They fought in true form against the Dolor and Gloxinia. Them replacing the gap left by 9 commandements would not be possible ifthey are weaker then Dolor himself.

 

[Captain_Torch]

Does that mean that Escanor has stronger durability than AP?

 

[Peter1129]

Ehh I don't think so. When Escanor casually attacked Estarossa the full countered strike didn't bother him that much. But when he tried to strike Estarossa with a serious attack the second time he was wounded pretty badly by his own attack multiplied by 2. Not to mention Estarossa was still able to hurt him.

 

[Peter1129]

Also I think this scaling would probably be better.

16k-27k (Hunter Fest Ban, Post-Wings Elaine, and Base Galand): At least High 6-C+

30k-36k (Melascula, Fruadrin, Gowther, Unsealed Base Meliodas and etc.): At least High 6-C+ Likely Low 6-B

39k-49k (Grayroad, Critical Over Galand, Post-Training King and etc.): At least Low 6-B Possibly Low 6-B+

50k-56k (Unsealed Demon Meliodas, Gloxinia, Monspeet, Drole, Derrieri and etc.): At least Low 6-B+ Possibly 6-B

60k+ (Post-Revival Base Meliodas, Base Zeldris, Base Estarossa, Base Masters and etc.): 6-B

88k+ (2C Estarossa, Sariel, Tarmiel and etc.): At least 6-B Likely higher

It's true that Drole And Gloxinia did fight True Form Chandler and even managed to minorly wound him. But when they fought him he already had his power halved. And Unsealed Meliodas even admitted Escanor was stronger than he is not to mention he was losing to Base Zeldris so he doesn't scale directly.

 

[Captain_Torch]

But if his durability scales to his AP then this x2 multiplier would continue on infinitely.

"Escanor's AP is 5 teratons, he withstood x2 of the attack, so his durability is 10 teratons. Durability = AP, so his AP is 10 teratons. However he withstood x2 of the attack, o his durability is 20 teratons......"

 

[Peter1129]

I don't think that's how it works. Not to mention AP does not equal Durability in NNT. This isn't Bleach where Reiatsu is AP and Durability.

 

[RavenSupreme]

HF Ban, Elaine, Base Galan - at least High 6C - likely low 6B

Melascula - likely low 6B - at least low 6B with barriers

Fraudrin Gowther, sealed base Mel - Low 6B

Grayroad - likely low 6B

CO Galan, King, Diane post training: at least low 6B, possible 6B

Unsealed Demon Mel, Gloxinia, Mon, Derr, Dolor - 6B

60K: 6B

anything higher: at least 6B

 

[Peter1129]

Wait so why are the 50k+ characters straight up 6-B all of a sudden?

Also I don't think we should use the 10 Teratons scaling for anyone but the 60k+ characters. 56k Meliodas was clearly shown to be inferior to 60k+ characters like Zeldris same with Derrieri being stomped by 60k Meliodas. The 50k+ characters should just be At least Low 6-B+ Possibly 6-B.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I personally agree with Peter's scaling more than Raven's.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Derriere fought evenly with the Archangels who are at least 88K. Same with Monspiet. Dolor and Gloxinia fought for a time with True form Chandler who likely is on the same level. We dont scale things because of personal preferences, we scale them due to making sense from an in-verse perspective.

Derriere, Dolor, Gloxinia, Monspiet, therefore get the scaling.

 

[Peter1129]

Derrieri didn't fight evenly with the Archangels. She had to struggle to barely get her bone through Sariel's Tornado Barrier after her hand were shredded just to hurt him once. Before that she was blasted away by one of Tarmiel's head like nothing. And Monspeet was easily cut apart by Sariel's Tornado. Not to mention there's also the whole thing with Archangels being potential glass cannons like Melascula.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Both Monspiet and Derriere have been able to continue their fights without much trouble (after being blasted, after being cut). Which means their durability is at least up to that level. Durability doesnt mean you tank every attack without scratch any dont notice them. Durability is the amount of damage in a single blast you can endure and still keep going.

And both Monspiet and Derriere took hits from and dished out hits to people who are "at least 6B".

Your argument would make sense if either of them would have been down after taking those hits, but they were not.

 

[Peter1129]

Being able to continue fighting even after being cut into pieces or heavily wounded is just stamina that's not durability.

They only took hits from their casual attacks. Sariel literally showed that he could easily cut apart Monspeet with Tornado while Derrieri and Base Galand were blasted away by a casual Arc from one of Tarmiel's head. Otherwise in the current chapters fodders would've been scale to 3C Mael for tanking his causal attacks.

Them not being knocked out doesn't mean they scale.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Monspiet also showed that he can easily tank those attacks without being cut apart, I dont know why you have not linked the instance.

http://217.23.10.62/manga/Nanatsu-No-Taizai/0205-014.png

Also, Fraudrin, a 30K PL guy withstood Sariels attack as well without being cut.

http://217.23.10.62/manga/Nanatsu-No-Taizai/0205-016.png

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These are two instances in clear combat where both, Monspiet and Fraudrin take attacks and are not bothered by it too much.

Its not about not being knocked out. Its plain and simple about receiving and taking hits.

The same thing applies to Dolor and Gloxinia by the way:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EBy3mAeiY...kdGW1IqtTpjmWf05QCHMYBhgL/s16000/0241-016.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n2fZZVGLe...BMlrrqeaU24blzYhACHMYBhgL/s16000/0241-017.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NKVj_pXUP...BmXAlLbmgKf3vCUBgCHMYBhgL/s16000/0241-018.png

 

[Peter1129]

Those first two instances weren't from Sariel using Tornado. That's from them touching his barrier which has been shown to be weaker than his actual Tornado attacks in the fight with 2C Estarossa.

The last three didn't show Drole or Gloxinia tanking attacks from True Form Chandler who was not only weakened but also got his power halved. It only showed them dealing minor damages to Chandler. Which was why I said they should be At least Low 6-B+ Possibly 6-B. In fact those pages you showed proves my point with how Chandler was able to casually slice through Drole in the final page despite being weakened and having his power halved.

 

[RavenSupreme]

It doesnt matter how much more powerful Chandler hypothetically could be - he was specifically stated, after his transformation - to be on "another level" than before.

Someone with scaling A inverse defeating someone else doesnt mean scaling A doesnt get applied when throughout the fight the defeated can fight back.

His barrier is his Tornado. He even states so himself.

http://93.190.142.23/manga/Nanatsu-No-Taizai/0264-014.png

So yes, Monspiet very clearly withstood an Archangel using his Grace. I dont know why you try to deny this.

 

[Peter1129]

And before he transformed he was weakened to the point where 41k King was only slightly weaker than he was in his base. So we don't actually know how strong his weakened True Form is. So at most that could only give the Drole and Gloxinia a Possibly 6-B.

I know the barrier is also apart of Tornado. But it's shown to be far weaker than his offensive uses of Tornado. As shown in the next page when he cut 2C Estarossa in half with his wind scythe. When his barrier was broken by 2C Estarossa.

Monspeet only withstood the barrier slightly cutting him. It's not like he straight up destroyed the barrier like 2C Estarossa or tanked the grace when used offensively.

 

[RavenSupreme]

It doesnt matter whether or not his barrier is weaker than his cleaving. The fact that it worked on 60K Estarossa, who gets the 10TT scaling, already qualifies for it to have at least that potency.

http://93.190.142.23/manga/Nanatsu-No-Taizai/0263-010.png

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Chandler are likely at least equaly as strong as an Archangel, even taking into account them being "significantly weaker" than usual, seeing how they fill the voids the accumulated power of every TC except Zeldris would make

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JJf7JTaSs...H87SlwMFmFPeX6j5ACHMYBhgL/s16000/0235-019.png

As such arguing for them to be anything below 88K or even 60K in weakened state is pointless.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems to be going in circles with nothing getting done. Can somebody give me a TLDR summary?

 

[RavenSupreme]

Everything seems to be settled aside from the people who hang in the PL between 50 and 60K

 

[Peter1129]

We should probably close this thread and make a new one to discuss the power scaling. Also I'm gonna be offline for quite a while now so don't expect me to reply anytime soon.

 

[RavenSupreme]

I just found another thing contradiction your logic. All the time you argue about how true form Chandler was in a 50% weakened state, but when taking a look this was a) just temporary due to Gowther and not his base state and b) more importantly, it just affected his magic, not his physical strenght

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ESxeUefXo...odflfV7khyFeXYVWwCHMYBhgL/s16000/0239-006.png

Aside from the fact that the temporary debuff was cleared seeing how it and the fight was several chapter apart, more importantly is that Chandler in true form not once used magical attacks - he just used his sword and fists for physical attacks.

Meaning even accounting for the magic still being halfed, it doesnt really matter in the context of the fight.

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I am against closing this thread. We have cleared all of the contested points. I prefer to decide these things for good now.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think Mitch?

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I can make a new thread summarizing the points here.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that might be helpful, but remember to link to it here.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

IMO

HF Ban, Elaine, Base Galan - at least High 6-C - likely low 6-B

Melascula - likely low 6B - at least low 6-B with barriers

Fraudrin Gowther, sealed base Mel - Low 6-B

Grayroad - Low 6-B

CO Galan, King, Diane post training, Gloxinia, Monspeet, Derrieri, Dolor At least Low 6-B, possibly 6-B

Unsealed Demon Mel - 6-B

60K: 6-B

Gods: At least 6-B+, likely higher


I really don't think the 10 Commandments below 60K, can't for sure be 6-B

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[RavenSupreme]

Given the portrayal of the 50K range against solid 6Bs and the fact they are only 2 TTs short off true 6B is more than enough reason to fully scale them. Anythen else would be purposedly denying story portrayal.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am afraid that I am not of much help here.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Alright, I've Changed my Mind

16k-27k (Hunter Fest Ban, Post-Wings Elaine, and Base Galand): At least High 6-C+, Likely Low 6-B

30k-36k (Melascula, Fruadrin, Gowther, and etc.): Low 6-B

39k-49k (Grayroad, Critical Over Galand, Post-Training King and etc.): Low 6-B+

50k-56k (Unsealed Demon Meliodas, Gloxinia, Monspeet, Drole, Derrieri and etc.): 6-B

60k+ (Post-Revival Base Meliodas, Base Zeldris, Base Estarossa, Base Masters and etc.): 6-B

88k+ (2C Estarossa, Sariel, Tarmiel and etc.): At least 6-B Likely higher

God's Full Power: At least 6-B+, likely higher

 

[RavenSupreme]

I can get behind that. I would remove the"+" behind the tiers since I dont think we have it and replace it with "possibly higher" and Merascylla would for her barrier get a full 6B.

Otherwise im fine.