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Taking back the Mind Stone (Zamasu + Conton City Hero CRT)

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Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
If Zamasu wasn't erased from all the timeline, Zen'o shouldn't be tier 2 In the first place, because that means he hasn't destroyed all of space time.

People remembering isn't an issue and someone already pointed it out. BTW.
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Which obviously is wrong, because well you know...
the rumours space time statements, universe being space times in heroes is undeniable, for the singe fact that they are ....space times.
so we either accept they zamasu fused with the fabric of space time, becoming U7's timeline and invading other timelines, got erased along with siad timeline, regenerated from history level EE, thus high godly
or We downgrade each universe to 3-A. and he would still get High godly , because timelines are space times The bigger one] which got erased, thus zamasu regened from that, and he would keep his high godly nonetheless.
 
Well, the way I read it Zen'o simply erased the universe that was Zamasu, as everybody remembered Zamasu afterwards and Goku could travel back there via a time machine afterwards. Erasing the entire timeline was never either mentioned or proven within the story, and we cannot expect the writers to keep our tiering distinction between Low 2-C and 3-A constantly in mind.

Anyway, rating Zamasu as having High-Godly regeneration without any explicit proof and reliant entirely on artificial speculation about acausality combined with complete timeline destruction is entirely unacceptable.

@AKM sama

I would still appreciate some help here, as I am overwhelmed with work.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, the way I read it Zen'o simply erased the universe that was Zamasu, as everybody remembered Zamasu afterwards and Goku could travel back there via a time machine afterwards. Erasing the entire timeline was never either mentioned or proven within the story, and we cannot expect the writers to keep our tiering distinction between Low 2-C and 3-A constantly in mind.
work.
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So are you arguing the universes are 3-A? And that Zen-Oh should be 3-A too?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
being erased from the pages of history
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Except, that is not the case, because the "pages of history" still allow for Trunks and Mai to return to the past of that universe and encounter another Zamasu.

In the case of Xenoverse, Chronoa mentioned that everything leading up to Zen-Oh erasing Zamasu was a concrete part of history and was destined to happen, meaning that nothing was removed from the "pages of history".
 
I am arguing that in this particular case all that Zen'o was explicitly shown doing was erase the universe rather than the timeline, and that the Dragon Ball writers have always had a very floating or nonexistent distinction between destroying a universe and a space-time continuum, and not all fictions treat a universal space-time continuum and a timeline as the same thing, even though we give both the same tier.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
We have 2 Choices here: 3-A DBS, so Zen-Oh ans the tier 2s of DBS get downgraded, or High Godly Zamasu.

Pick one. There's no in between.
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As I said above, Dragon Ball is inconsistent in this regard, and we have been very generous in our interpretations regarding its tiers, to not give 3-A to every single character from SSG Goku to Zen'o, but there are limits to how generous we can get, given how ridiculously extreme a power High-Godly regeneration really is. We need some very convincing explicit evidence to allow it.
 
Antvasima said:
As I said above, Dragon Ball is inconsistent in this regard, and we have been very generous in our interpretations regarding its tiers, to not give 3-A to every single character from SSG Goku to Zen'o, but there are limits to how generous we can get, given how ridiculously extreme a power High-Godly regeneration really is. We need some very convincing explicit evidence to allow it.
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I mean, I'm basing what I'm saying from our standards. If Zen-Oh didn't destroy space time, he shouldn't be tier 2.

Unless we enter the realm of a discrete 2nd temporal dimension, which would make everything consistent without any tier change. Ultima mentioned it once.
 
We base Zen'o being 2-C on him being able to completely erase at least 18 universes at the same time effortlessly. However, Dragon Ball evidently treats timelines and universal space-time continuums as separate concepts. It is not particularly logical, but neither is Dragon Ball as a whole. At the end of the day it's made as a kids power fantasy, not for deep intellectual content.

Do you really want to force us to downgrade the entire verse and cause massive amounts of drama over this comparatively trivial issue?
 
Antvasima said:
Well, the way I read it Zen'o simply erased the universe that was Zamasu, as everybody remembered Zamasu afterwards
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As I said before, people in DB can remember others even if their universe is erased, as seen in tournament of power
Antvasima said:
and Goku could travel back there via a time machine afterwards. Erasing the entire timeline was never either mentioned or proven within the story, and we cannot expect the writers to keep our tiering distinction between Low 2-C and 3-A constantly in mind.
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If that's so, then both Zamasu's AP (and anyone who scales from him) and range should be downgraded, since at least for now we treat Zamasu as a being who became an space-time continuum

Also, I can't find a clip, but I remember something about a time ring being destroyed after Zen'oh destroyed the timeline. Maybe anyone can help on the scan?
 
1. Dragon Ball use branching timeline, thus acausality and memory is a moot point to debate
2. IZ's history doesn't mean it must be also Zamasu's history, it can just be IZ history, mean just IZ himself, and when IZ merged with space-time continuum of U7 he is omnipresent across history/timeline of Future Trunks U7 and only that, history of Zamasu who take Goku body -> become Black or the other Zamasu who use Super Sheron to have immortality belong to different history now because of branching timeline. Also this is talking about DBH treat history, timeline and space-time, not DBS one, cuz DBS IZ never show up again.
3. If we actually trying to imprint the whole acausality and memory on IZ's case, then we should also downgrade the verse canon cosmology to 3-A and Low 2-C, not 2-C anymore cuz despite many time Zeno blow up other universe people still remember them
 
Again, Dragon Ball is mainly a kids power fantasy show without much cosmological logic, and which as far as we have been shown treats universal space-time continuums and timelines as separate concepts. I am very unlikely to budge regarding this issue, and do not have the time to keep repeating myself here when there are lots of other tasks for me to handle.

We should wait for AKM and pause this discussion until then.
 
JustANormalPerson01 said:
As I said before, people in DB can remember others even if their universe is erased, as seen in tournament of power

If that's so, then both Zamasu's AP (and anyone who scales from him) and range should be downgraded, since at least for now we treat Zamasu as a being who became an space-time continuum

Also, I can't find a clip, but I remember something about a time ring being destroyed after Zen'oh destroyed the timeline. Maybe anyone can help on the scan?
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Before and after Zeno's erase.
 
Vietthai96 said:
1. Dragon Ball use branching timeline, thus acausality and memory is a moot point to debate
2. IZ's history doesn't mean it must be also Zamasu's history, it can just be IZ history, mean just IZ himself, and when IZ merged with space-time continuum of U7 he is omnipresent across history/timeline of Future Trunks U7 and only that, history of Zamasu who take Goku body -> become Black or the other Zamasu who use Super Sheron to have immortality belong to different history now because of branching timeline. Also this is talking about DBH treat history, timeline and space-time, not DBS one, cuz DBS IZ never show up again.
3. If we actually trying to imprint the whole acausality and memory on IZ's case, then we should also downgrade the verse canon cosmology to 3-A and Low 2-C, not 2-C anymore cuz despite many time Zeno blow up other universe people still remember them
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It doesn't remotely matter if what is being argued here is that a specific character was erased through all of his personal timeline/history regardless how much he jumped around between different timelines.

Again, we are being nice about the Dragon Ball statistics, despite the lack of explicit proof of a higher degree of cosmology, because, again, it's not made for that purpose, and now you are collectively using this generosity as a weapon against us to relentlessly and unreasonably argue for something that is evidently completely irrational and exaggerated. A thank you would have been better in my view.
 
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Antvasima said:
Again, we are being nice about the Dragon Ball statistics, despite the lack of explicit proof of a higher degree of cosmology, because, again, it's not made for that purpose, and now you are using this generosity as a weapon against us to relentlessly and unreasonably argue for something that is evidently completely irrational and exaggerated. A thank you would have been better in my view.
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huh, i don't know why you think this way, but i made 1 comment with my opinion. Also because you mention the memory part thus i give my opinion on that part so.....if you think like this then i'm sorry then
 
I do not mean to refer to you specifically Vietthai. You have been very helpful elsewhere. I am talking about the sum total of the people here arguing for High-Godly Zamasu.
 
According to high godly page, you can get high godly via regenerating after having your past, present and future is erased.
Until now this understandable.
heroes zamasu was able to fuse with the fabric of space time , becoming the universe, space time , history, and timeline itself.
Universes in heroes are specifically treated as timelines/space times.
Zamasu managed to fuse with one , becoming the very timeline of U7.
He got erased by the lord of all, zeno, along with the entire future timeline.
But thanks to his regen be was able to come back after having history/history of the world being erased, which is high godly. Please explain to me, just this once without Stone walling or using non canon sources, why this doesn't qualify, when you literally agree'd with it on the first thread.
 
Orange said:
According to high godly page, you can get high godly via regenerating after having your past, present and future is erased.
Until now this understandable.
heroes zamasu was able to fuse with the fabric of space time , becoming the universe, space time , history, and timeline itself.
Universes in heroes are specifically treated as timelines/space times.
Zamasu managed to fuse with one , becoming the very timeline of U7.
He got erased by the lord of all, zeno, along with the entire future timeline.
But thanks to his regen be was able to come back after having history/history of the world being erased, which is high godly. Please explain to me, just this once without Stone walling or using non canon sources, why this doesn't qualify, when you literally agree'd with it on the first thread.
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Just post the Q&A thread you made the other day, so we can get this clarified
 
Anyway, the point is that by your logic any character who is a space-time continuum of any size who manages to regenerate from destruction should automatically get the highest level of regeneration available in our wiki, even though their entire personal histories should also be erased at a minimum.

Also, take note that I think that we should make our standards stricter in this regard so only characters that regenerate after the concepts that define them are destroyed should get High-Godly. I think that Sera was the one who inserted that temporal erasure should also qualify, and she turned out to not exactly be reliable and well-intended towards this community, to say the least.
 
Antvasima said:
Also, take note that I think that we should make our standards stricter in this regard so only characters that regenerate after the concepts that define them are destroyed should get High-Godly. I think that Sera was the one who inserted that temporal erasure should also qualify, and she turned out to not exactly be reliable and well-intended towards this community, to say the least.
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Yeah I agree with this history erasure should not be an qualifying factor for high godly
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, the point is that by your logic any character who is a space-time continuum of any size who manages to regenerate from destruction should automatically get the highest level of regeneration available in our wiki, even though their entire personal histories should also be erased at a minimum.

Also, take note that I think that we should make our standards stricter in this regard so only characters that regenerate after the concepts that define them are destroyed should get High-Godly. I think that Sera was the one who inserted that temporal erasure should also qualify, and she turned out to not exactly be reliable and well-intended towards this community, to say the least.
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Well...yeah, you are being said space time, being the past, present and future of yourself or a universe , and when getting erased, your past, present and future are getting erased along with it. Regenerating from that is a text book definition of high godly.
I even made a thread to get as many confirmation about this regeneration before making the revision.
Also it's pretty late for you to pull up "it isn't reliable, and we should change standards" after a db character gets high godly, why haven't you noticed it before? Maybe you were too busy, why didn't you say anything when the standards of regeneration Were being implemented? Perhaps you too busy? Why didn't you say it on the first thread, or when you agree'd with the proposal, or when you unlocked the profiles, or when you asked us to check if the changes are fine, why didn't you check the changes ,why did you agree with the thread even when you don't?
 
Orange said:
Well...yeah, you are being said space time, being the past, present and future of yourself or a universe , and when getting erased, your past, present and future are getting erased along with it. Regenerating from that is a text book definition of high godly.
I even made a thread to get as many confirmation about this regeneration before making the revision.
Also it's pretty late for you to pull up "it isn't reliable, and we should change standards" after a db character gets high godly, why haven't you noticed it before? Maybe you were too busy, why didn't you say anything when the standards of regeneration Were being implemented? Perhaps you too busy? Why didn't you say it on the first thread, or when you agree'd with the proposal, or when you unlocked the profiles, or when you asked us to check if the changes are fine, why didn't you check the changes ,why did you agree with the thread even when you don't?
Click to expand...
Chill Anasu, no need to get so worked up.
 
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