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Taking back the Mind Stone (Zamasu + Conton City Hero CRT)

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Pain_to12 said:
I agree with the OP
Whether the standards for the high godly thread change or not Zamasu does not qualify
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Which means Zen-Oh needs to be downgraded to 3-A, and so does all of DBS. Since ya know, even in the ToP people remember the erased universes, which means Zen-O can't erase time and thus doesn't qualify for tier 2.

1- 3-A DBS (you also need to downgrade the universes to 3-A)
2- we dismiss this stuff as a plot hole or PIS or inconsistency
3- the verse has a discrete 2nd temporal dimension

We can't have both 2-C Zen-Oh and Zamasu below High Godly, with the current standards and way we treat the characters, contradictions appear otherwise. We need to wait for the staff thread because things may change for one side or the other.
 
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Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
Which means Zen-Oh needs to be downgraded to 3-A, and so does all of DBS. Since ya know, even in the ToP people remember the erased universes, which means Zen-O can't erase time and thus doesn't qualify for tier 2.

1- 3-A DBS (you also need to downgrade the universes to 3-A)
2- we dismiss this stuff as a plot hole or PIS or inconsistency
3- the verse has a discrete 2nd temporal dimension

We can't have both 2-C Zen-Oh and Zamasu below High Godly, with the current standards and way we treat the characters, contradictions appear otherwise. We need to wait for the staff thread because things may change for one side or the other.
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Okay fine by me
 
We are not going to downgrade Dragon Ball, and using that as a negotiating point is a very low blow, as it would cause massive uproar and be unfair to DB in combination.

Given that everybody else remembered Zamasu afterwards and it was possible to travel back to his timeline, we simply don't have sufficient evidence for him regenerating from absolutely nothing. His personal history was evidently still intact, even though the universe that he became was not. It may be somewhat of a story inconsistency, or maybe he simply regenerated from the part of his history that was still intact from before he travelled to the universal continuum that he became?
 
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Antvasima said:
We are not going to downgrade Dragon Ball, and using that a negotiating point is a very low blow, as it would cause massive uproar and be unfair to DB in combination.

Given that everybody else remembered Zamasu afterwards and it was possible to travel back to his timeline, we simply don't have sufficient evidence for him regenerating from absolutely nothing. His personal history was evidently still intact, even though the universe that he became was not. It may be somewhat of a story inconsistency, or maybe he simply regenerated from the part of his history that was still intact from before he travelled to the universal continuum that he became?
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That's what I said, and zeno has other 2C feats and statements aside zamasu erasure. But either way zamasu history was not erased
 
I'm usually pro 3-A DBS, but here's my take on this situation based on MY UNDERSTANDING of the feats and definitions involved.

low 2-C destruction =/= high godly in any way. High godly is based on the "information" of someones existence that's deleted, people remembering Zamasu is an anti-feat for high godly, but not low 2-C.

If Zeno performed low 2-C feat AND no one could remember Zamasu, that would indicate Zeno destroyed the timeline as well as another component of Zamasu's "information" that would entail high godly.

Since Zamasu was remembered, that indicates to me his "history" (as it pertains to my understanding of the high-godly definition) wasn't destroyed alongside the timeline.

Some characters can destroy both the physical timeline and the histories of the people that exist as information in the minds of others and even physical evidence of their existence from all timelines. Characters who can regenerate from that level of destruction in my eyes fit the definition of high godly (as it's: soul, body and utter history erasure).

I could be wrong though.
 
@Antvasima The people in the ToP remembered the erased universes.

Yes you can argue that it's a story inconsistency if you think that Zen-Oh truly nuked every instance of time (basic requirement for being tier 2) in the timeline, though that would just destroy the downgrade side's argument instead of being an anti feat

@Hasty Temporal erasure currently fits for High Godly, if the thread won't change its standard that is

Maybe Ultima could give us clarifications.
 
Hasty12345 said:
I'm usually pro 3-A DBS, but here's my take on this situation based on MY UNDERSTANDING of the feats and definitions involved.

low 2-C destruction =/= high godly in any way. High godly is based on the "information" of someones existence that's deleted, people remembering Zamasu is an anti-feat for high godly, but not low 2-C.

If Zeno performed low 2-C feat AND no one could remember Zamasu, that would indicate Zeno destroyed the timeline as well as another component of Zamasu's "information" that would entail high godly.

Since Zamasu was remembered, that indicates to me his "history" (as it pertains to my understanding of the high-godly definition) wasn't destroyed alongside the timeline.

Some characters can destroy both the physical timeline and the histories of the people that exist as information in the minds of others and even physical evidence of their existence from all timelines. Characters who can regenerate from that level of destruction in my eyes fit the definition of high godly (as it's: soul, body and utter history erasure).

I could be wrong though.
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I largely agree with this.
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
@Antvasima The people in the ToP remembered the erased universes.

Yes you can argue that it's a story inconsistency if you think that Zen-Oh truly nuked every instance of time (basic requirement for being tier 2) in the timeline, though that would just destroy the downgrade side's argument instead of being an anti feat
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Zen'o likely did not erase the entire histories for the universes on that occasion.
 
@Hasty Temporal erasure currently fits for High Godly, if the thread won't change its standard that is

I don’t think it does, I think the word “history” in the current definition:

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying concept(s) or information needed for them to exist.

is being misinterpreted. “Entire history” would entail the component of information of those left over to remember the events that took place surrounding said character, certain Acausals would be an exception to this I suppose.

The physical object (the timeline) doesn’t hold the entirety of the information that makes up a characters “history”. Memories also contribute to this information.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
Since ya know, even in the ToP people remember the erased universes, which means Zen-O can't erase time and thus doesn't qualify for tier 2.
Click to expand...
That's not true, tho. He erased the space-times (assuming that they're space-times). If people have to not remember it for it to qualify for Tier 2, then literally half of our tier 2 verses are getting downgraded. Even the heavy hitting verses are getting severely downgraded, so this logic doesn't work.
 
Tarang123 said:
That's not true, tho. He erased the space-times (assuming that they're space-times). If people have to not remember it for it to qualify for Tier 2, then literally half of our tier 2 verses are getting downgraded. Even the heavy hitting verses are getting severely downgraded, so this logic doesn't work.
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I mean, I'm literally arguing against this. That's what the downgrade side is indirectly arguing.
 
I think tier 2 feats and regeneration should in general be kept separately. Whilst a tier 2 feat would entail the physical destruction of a character, it gives us no inherent detail on whether or not deeper levels of a characters existence were erased.

likewise, you can have a character erase another character from history on the required level without a tier 2 feat at all.

I think trying to link the two is a dangerous game and will probably lead to a lot of confusion and false positives for high godly regen.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
I mean, I'm literally arguing against this. That's what the downgrade side is indirectly arguing.
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Alr, let's literally downgrade every tier 2 verse for dumbass logic like that. My point is that if they regenerated and people remembered them, then he didn't erase the time-spaces. And he never said he was erasing all of space and time, just that he was erasing the universes, which are part of the exact same time stream, so that still doesn't work.
 
Tarang123 said:
Alr, let's literally downgrade every tier 2 verse for dumbass logic like that. My point is that if they regenerated and people remembered them, then he didn't erase the time-spaces. And he never said he was erasing all of space and time, just that he was erasing the universes, which are part of the exact same time stream, so that still doesn't work.
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Why is he 2-C then? This is literally arguing 3-A DBS. I think We are getting nowhere, can't we call Ultima or and DT?
 
Tarang123 said:
Alr, let's literally downgrade every tier 2 verse for dumbass logic like that. My point is that if they regenerated and people remembered them, then he didn't erase the time-spaces. And he never said he was erasing all of space and time, just that he was erasing the universes, which are part of the exact same time stream, so that still doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Tarang123 said:
That's not true, tho. He erased the space-times (assuming that they're space-times). If people have to not remember it for it to qualify for Tier 2, then literally half of our tier 2 verses are getting downgraded. Even the heavy hitting verses are getting severely downgraded, so this logic doesn't work.
Click to expand...
What do you mean "assuming they are space times". Are you implying universes in Super, xv and heroes aren't space times?
 
I’m not really sure where this “Zamasu is high godly or Zeno is 3-A” ultimatum is coming from. As much as I’d love for DBS to be 3-A, it’s not 3-A because of this…
 
In my country, everyone believes goku and most of the characters in DBS are just Solar system buster and Zeno is the only Universe buster and a literal glass canon. So i wouldn't mind even if All of DBS downgraded to 4B let alone 3A, seriously.
 
Also even Zeno deleted the entire timeline (including the entire past to the future) and IZ still retains its Low-2C rating due to merging with the entire Spacetime continuum. This is also equivalent to Mid godly, due to the fact that IZ's physical body itself is spacetime and He is Pure Will/Mind, it won't necessary affect his personal history
The obliteration of him as the entire spacetime continuum and he regenerates from that is just Low-Godly to Mid-godly. Infinite Zamasu/Fusion Zamasu is not only future zamasu, but also Black, whose personal history does not belong entirely to Future Trunks's timeline, but originates from another timeline, created by beerus after changing the past and he was not erased due to time ring/acausality type 1, creates a different timeline as a side effect. So...
 
Antvasima said:
It doesn't remotely matter if what is being argued here is that a specific character was erased through all of his personal timeline/history regardless how much he jumped around between different timelines.

Again, we are being nice about the Dragon Ball statistics, despite the lack of explicit proof of a higher degree of cosmology, because, again, it's not made for that purpose, and now you are collectively using this generosity as a weapon against us to relentlessly and unreasonably argue for something that is evidently completely irrational and exaggerated. A thank you would have been better in my view.
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Ok man. You can downgrade Dragon ball to whatever tier you like. Don't be nice to us please. And please don't rub your niceness on us dragon ball fans. I would really appreciate that from you and your other fellow mods.
Just A humble request
Thank you.
 
Problem is, universal space-time continuum = timeline. The reason why destroying observable universal scale spacetime continuum still infinitely > even infinite szied universe despite on visual scale infinite universe seem way larger, more impressive, etc...... because when you destroy a timeline you destroy uncountably infinite amount of snap-shot of 3d universe, the total sum of AP needed is uncountable infinitely superior to...well...infinite sized universe. Well so talk about destroy an entire timeline but the information still there is kinda, wrong assumption, it information goes with it, leav nothing behind. So other people remember is normal, cuz their memory is their own information, you can't just magically destroy timeline and the memories information of the survivor goes with it.

So what about High Godly regen from history erasure, it is not about the Informations that made up existence, but it is on Causality level of erasure, causality is the cause and effect (which every know), your past is the cause and the present is the effect, and in turn the present is the cause and future is the effect. That mean History erasure is erase you to the level where you not even exist across the era from the past to present, to future, which erase the entire causality and fate of one person across time, make him never exist, it is a watered down version of narrative, plot erasure where you erase a character across the plot of a story, make that character never exist before. thus in turn affect other character memory, because...well..after the erasure other characters will be like never met the guy, he/she is not a part of history (or the plot, narrative). So when you regen from this kind of erasure, this is a very insane regen (which i think is regen from non-existence state)

So sum this up:
1. Well unfortunately Fused Zamasu doesn't have enough evidences for High Godly (he actually one step before it), cuz he not being erased on causality level.
2. Zeno's feat on the other hand still legit tier 2 with his AP/Erasure potency, he just not erase anyone, or specifically IZ on causality level
 
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BetterThanYou said:
Why the **** should we? DBS cosmology has nothing to do with this thread. DBH U7 is CONFIRMED low-2-C.
So stick to the damn topic you all. This thread is strictly about DBH zamasu. Don't bring DBS into it.
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He blatantly said that it's not happening at all, so I was asking why not.
 
Tarang123 said:
He blatantly said that it's not happening at all, so I was asking why not.
Click to expand...
What is not happening? The zamasu regeneration upgrade? I already knew that it was not happening.
But DBH U7 is not getting downgraded to 3-A. This thread was supposed to be about zamasu's regeneration and not about DBS cosmology.
The exact same thing happened with the cosmology page thread too.
So I agree with you, just downgrade all DBS character to 3-A or whatever and just get the **** on with it. I don't wanna hear about it on other DB related threads anymore.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Don't derail the thread and using extreme swearing word, please, let keep the thread professional, we all grown-up
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You call this derail? The actual derail happened when ant brought up the DBS cosmology dispute in a thread which had nothing to do with DBS. And you don't take any issue with Ant's condescending tone, when he said that tier 2 DBS is just mods "being nice". He was rubbing it in our faces.
 
BetterThanYou said:
You call this derail? The actual derail happened when ant brought up the DBS cosmology dispute in a thread which had nothing to do with DBS. And you don't take any issue with Ant's condescending tone, when he said that tier 2 DBS is just mods "being nice". He was rubbing it in our faces.
Click to expand...
He's not wrong, tho. There were many reasons to downgrade it, and they chose not to. He's not really rubbing it in, but merely warning others to stop taking things for granted. I think people should be more open to making cosmology revisions for DB, but yeah let's stop the derailing.
 
BetterThanYou said:
You call this derail? The actual derail happened when ant brought up the DBS cosmology dispute in a thread which had nothing to do with DBS. And you don't take any issue with Ant's condescending tone, when he said that tier 2 DBS is just mods "being nice". He was rubbing it in our faces.
Click to expand...
And, you using extreme word is unnecessary and unprofessional, that what i mean for the derailment, now stop all of this for once
 
Hasty12345 said:
I think tier 2 feats and regeneration should in general be kept separately. Whilst a tier 2 feat would entail the physical destruction of a character, it gives us no inherent detail on whether or not deeper levels of a characters existence were erased.

likewise, you can have a character erase another character from history on the required level without a tier 2 feat at all.

I think trying to link the two is a dangerous game and will probably lead to a lot of confusion and false positives for high godly regen.
Click to expand...
Strongly agreed.
 
Tarang123 said:
He's not wrong, tho. There were many reasons to downgrade it, and they chose not to. He's not really rubbing it in, but merely warning others to stop taking things for granted. I think people should be more open to making cosmology revisions for DB, but yeah let's stop the derailing.
Click to expand...
Then make a separate thread and downgrade it ones and for all. Don't bring this up in other DB related threads.
As far as i know, there is no cosmology problems in DBH.
DBH Universes= low 2-C
DBH Timelines= 2-C
DBH Multiverse = 2-B
So, lets discuss about zamasu here or just close the thread.
And please make a DBS cosmology thread and fix the issue
 
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