Superman (Rebirth) 2-A removal

[Antvasima]

I completely agree, I think at the very least, the wording on the profile implies Superman can do this whenever he wants, which doesn't seem like the case.

Thank you. This could be an acceptable compromise solution for me. Currently the page is very misleading.

 

[Antvasima]

Question, why would it be rated as 1-A to 1-B despite that obviously not being the case? Or are you just settling for this revised tier because you are (understandably) tired of going back and forth with 1-A/1-B supporters? I'm asking for clarification

The World Forger is currently listed as 1-A in the 6th Dimension, but might get downgraded to 1-B later. I may misremember this detail of our upcoming revision though.

 

[AKM sama]

Let's not talk about revisions that haven't even started yet.

 

[The_Impress]

It isn't relevant to Superman's personal scaling, so I disagree.

I very strongly disagree about that it should be listed in the current manner by scaling from a single confrontation. If we absolutely have to mention it, it should state that Mxyzptlk had previously elevated Superman to a 6th Dimension level, as that is the only way we can make this make any sense whatsoever. But I would much prefer a footnote instead.

And I completely disagree with this notion, said fight is crucial by nearly every definiition and should be reflected on the file, us reducing it to a note is just us baiting further attempts to get it added and leading to this thread being made 900 times in the future. Just key it and be done with it

Anyway, I have to go and eat now.

Take care

 

[Antvasima]

Would it be an acceptable compromise if we list it as a power-up key titled "Raised to the 6th Dimension by Mister Mxyzptlk" or somesuch instead of us heavily implying that Superman can raise himself to a tier 1-A scale whenever he takes a sun-dip?

 

[Confluctor]

Pretty sure batman made those stars appear with the machine.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Would it be an acceptable compromise if we list it as a power-up key titled "Raised to the 6th Dimension by Mister Mxyzptlk" or somesuch instead of us heavily implying that Superman can raise himself to a tier 1-A scale whenever he takes a sun-dip?

What, no
he just dipped in specific stars lol

 

[Antvasima]

Gah. We obviously cannot claim that Superman can fight evenly with Multiversal Eternity whenever he feels like it just by standing in the Sun for a few minutes. That would be absolutely ridiculous.

Specifying the circumstances considerably better, meaning the exact reasons for the feat, could work though.

 

[Overlord775]

Ant, you seem to have missed the part where he needs special stars to do that

 

[Swerzye29038]

What, no
he just dipped in specific stars lol

Yes, and he was also amped by mxy, and said stars are sixth dimensional. There's no evidence he can do this with normal stars, and evidently he probably wouldn't be able to.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, and he was also amped by mxy, and said stars are sixth dimensional. There's no evidence he can do this with normal stars, and evidently he probably wouldn't be able to.

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, I could go along with this solution in lack of better options. Meaning that we would list the feat in a separate key, but specify all of the reasons for why he was able to perform it in combination.

 

[Confluctor]

Yes, and he was also amped by mxy, and said stars are sixth dimensional. There's no evidence he can do this with normal stars, and evidently he probably wouldn't be able to.

His comprehension... we literally discussed this crap ton last time and added a note too.


You guys either need to make up your mind regarding amped suns of regular amps.

 

[Swerzye29038]

His comprehension... we literally discussed this crap ton last time and added a note too.


You guys either need to make up your mind regarding amped suns of regular amps.

I wasn't responding to you, and my argument is more or less that the reason for the extra key (if it stays, which I don't think it should) is misleading and should be changed.

 

[Confluctor]

Doesn't matter to whom it was, we are trying 5o clearing something

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the story was not properly explaining what was happening in it, but claiming that Superman can reach the scale of high-level abstract entities whenever he wants by standing in the Sun for a little while is asinine, whereas Mxyzptlk temporarily elevating Superman to nearly the same scale as the World Forger, after which Superman powered-up further, would at least make some measure of sense.

 

[Overlord775]

Well, the story was not properly explaining what was happening in it, but claiming that Superman can reach the scale of high-level abstract entities whenever he wants by standing in the Sun for a little while is asinine, whereas Mxyzptlk temporarily elevating Superman to nearly the same scale as the World Forger, after which Superman powered-up further, would at least make some measure of sense.

you are still ignoring the whole argument that it's the stars themselves that are making the difference ...

 

[Antvasima]

One argument here is that Superman was already elevated to the scale of the 6th Dimension, and then powered up further via the stars within it.

 

[Swerzye29038]

you are still ignoring the whole argument that it's the stars themselves that are making the difference ...

No, he isn't. Read it again:

Well, the story was not properly explaining what was happening in it, but claiming that Superman can reach the scale of high-level abstract entities whenever he wants by standing in the Sun for a little while is asinine, whereas Mxyzptlk temporarily elevating Superman to nearly the same scale as the World Forger, after which Superman powered-up further, would at least make some measure of sense.

 

[Confluctor]

I think story treats it fine and explaination is decent. Its a higher d sun, thus more amps and wahtnot.

 

[Antvasima]

I think story treats it fine and explaination is decent. Its a higher d sun, thus more amps and wahtnot.

So do you find my suggestion for a compromise solution acceptable?

 

[Confluctor]

I don't really care for what happens to the stat itself, so sure

 

[AKM sama]

As far as I can understand from reading the thread, I see two main arguments:

1. Either we say that the solar amp is inconsistent because other such amps for similar durations have not amped Superman by this insane magnitude in the past. This would make this particular amp an outlier.

2. Or, assume that the stars in 6th dimension are qualitatively different than normal stars, and Superman can only reach this level by getting amped by these "special" 6-D stars.

Personally, I'll go with option 1 because when something looks and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. The stars look exactly normal and nothing states that stars in 6th dimension produce a special kind of solar energy that can amp someone to multiple degrees of infinity. The fact that Superman can absorb this solar energy is proof enough that it is the normal solar energy that he gets on Earth and not anything qualitatively different or special, otherwise it wouldn't have worked. Maybe more or less in magnitude but not something that justifies a jump of multiple degrees of infinity. Moreover, I think tall roundabout assumptions like these should require direct evidence.
For that reason, I advocate option 1 is better.

 

[AKM sama]

And supposing option 2 is deemed better, it becomes a very conditional amp. Supes gets so many amps that he uses in fights. We can't make dozens of keys for dozens of amps, so simply listing it in notes or feats section should be enough imo rather than making keys like "after getting amped by stars in the sixth-dimension" imo.

 

[Swerzye29038]

So do you find my suggestion for a compromise solution acceptable?

Would your suggestion also include the removal of "2-A" and instead "2-C, possibly 2-A", since it's been clarified that Superman didn't destroy World Forgers Multiverse? (at least in the mean time, till the long awaited revision finally comes)

 

[Damage3245]

1. Either we say that the solar amp is inconsistent because other such amps for similar durations have not amped Superman by this insane magnitude in the past. This would make this particular amp an outlier.
2. Or, assume that the stars in 6th dimension are qualitatively different than normal stars, and Superman can only reach this level by getting amped by these "special" 6-D stars.

If it is inconsistent and there's no special reason given to explain the inconsistency then I'd say that we'd have to go with Option 1.

I don't see why we'd making an assumption for Option 2 unless there was supportive evidence beyond it just being inconsistent.

 

[The_Impress]

I don't see why we'd making an assumption for Option 2 unless there was supportive evidence beyond it just being inconsistent.

Option 1 is reliant on the BIGGEST assumption that the stars in Sixth Dimensions, a separate plane of eixstence, somehow work 1-to-1 as real stars with Superman's fictional absorption powers, when the feats performed by Superman alone disprove this notion being true, and by basic trends established we know everything in the Sixth Dimension is qualitatively superior.

Me and AKM had established offsite that the distinction we make right now is subjective, and from my perspective AKM's logic is completely ignorant of basic logical conclusions in favour of making a transparently wonk assumption that being from a dimension qualitatively superior doesn't mean you are, and expecting stories to just have unnecessary textwalls to explain everything that you yourself can understand.

There is no real inconsistency as asserted, because this is done under a scenario never comparably replicated again with the exact same factors.

Would it be an acceptable compromise if we list it as a power-up key titled "Raised to the 6th Dimension by Mister Mxyzptlk" or somesuch instead of us heavily implying that Superman can raise himself to a tier 1-A scale whenever he takes a sun-dip?

Yeah sure, list it "Amped by 6th Dimensional Suns", better title.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out, AKM and Damage.

I would also much prefer if we use option 1.

However, as Impress said, the DC fans are going to drown us in revision threads to upgrade Superman to tier 1-A (or 1-B) if we do not apply this, so we would have to make very clear why it is not acceptable, and likely also add a discussion rule.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah sure, list it "Amped by 6th Dimensional Suns", better title.

And if that turns out to not be acceptable, we can go with this instead.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

If it is inconsistent and there's no special reason given to explain the inconsistency then I'd say that we'd have to go with Option 1.

I don't see why we'd making an assumption for Option 2 unless there was supportive evidence beyond it just being inconsistent.

Wasn’t it stated very clearly that Superman was never amped like this?

 

[Antvasima]

Wasn’t it stated very clearly that Superman was never amped like this?

What do you mean? Can you link to a scan please?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Anyway, I agree with Imp-ress and co. Saying this is an outlier or that the sun isn't special ignores all the context of the feat and is frankly, extremely ******* stupid and disingenuous. The only reason people want it removed is because of the number and not whether or not this si valid from the story's PoV. It's dumb.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that taking the feat at face value breaks Superman's entire scaling narrative, but as I mentioned, I am willing to go with the above-listed compromise solution if it is necessary.

 

[Swerzye29038]

What do you mean? Can you link to a scan please?

I think he worded this badly. I think he meant to say that this scan is evidence that these are not normal stars, and he was never this powerful before by sun dipping. In other words, it’s a piece of evidence for Option 2. But if Option 1 is being chosen, fine, as long as the profile is no longer misleading

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[Confluctor]

Option 1 is objectively wrong. Option is correct. I am pretty sure i and someone mentioned it a few times and no idea where the idea of 3D/normal scans even came from. 3D/Normal sun has no basis going by the comic


Its a 1A amp done in a 1A dimensional plane.


Edit; also agree with Impress.

 

[Antvasima]

Option 1 is objectively wrong. Option is correct. I am pretty sure i and someone mentioned it a few times and no idea where the idea of 3D/normal scans even came from. 3D/Normal sun has no basis going by the comic

Its a 1A amp done in a 1A dimensional plane.

Edit; also agree with Impress.

So would you be fine with the following solution then?

Yeah sure, list it "Amped by 6th Dimensional Suns", better title.

 

[Confluctor]

Sure, I suppose

 

[Damage3245]

I'm fine with it being treated as a special amp. If the supportive evidence is there, then it's fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Let's wait to see what the other members here think as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, should we add a "higher after charging himself inside of a star (Could almost fight the Kryptonian goddess Cythonna, who overpowered him in base)" rating to the Superman (Post-Crisis) profile page, while we are at it?