Superman (Rebirth) 2-A removal

[Antvasima]

As much as the idea of the feat itself makes me laugh, there's really no leg to stand in regards to removing it as far as any outlier arguments go aside from arguing via incredulity.

Does it make any logical sense? No.

But by that same logic, a good chunk of the wiki would go since no one can train a finite internal energy to Tier 2, amp themselves to FTL etc.

At best, an argument could be made about it being one-off and not indexable if such a rule exists but the feat being 2-A or 1-A doesn't somehow make it less or more sensible.

It isn't just incredulity. Superman suddenly growing to the same scale of power as the Multiversal Eternity from a power-up that has never remotely worked like this in the past, and also shouldn't do so by any measure of logic is as extreme an outlier as you're ever likely to get. We usually disqualify outlier feats for enormously less reason than this, but since it is Superman, people are more likely to accept it for being cool, when we should strictly focus on consistency and reliability.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree completely with this. The only reason it should be removed is that it was in like a single issue and not relevant enough.

That is part of it, but it would also be far too inconsistent.

 

[Planck69]

It isn't just incredulity. Superman suddenly growing to the same scale of power as the Multiversal Eternity from a power-up that has never remotely worked like this in the past, and also shouldn't do so by any measure of logic is as extreme an outlier as you're ever likely to get. We usually disqualify outlier feats for enormously less reason than this, but since it is Superman, people are more likely to accept it for being cool, when we should strictly focus on consistency and reliability.

I'm not that bothered by the amp's scale, we have blind carpenters with 1-A souls and that Supergirl that went 11-D via emotion powah, but the fact that it's never showcased before or again does shake the validity alot.

And you did have a point regarding duration, its not as though number of sources of sunlight should make as much a difference as time spent absorbing it.

Overall, unsure on this feat.

 

[Antvasima]

This might be because of how little I care for tier 1/2 but I see no difference between getting 2-C and 1-A from a star, they're both infinitely and qualitatively higher amounts of energy compared to the source. But, I don't think that's reason to not use them, as silly as it is.

The issue is that Pre-Crisis Superman had a few legitimate 2-A level feats, so this scale is not unprecedented, but 1-A definitely is. It isn't just infinity. You need to multiply infinity by infinity and uncountable infinity number of times to even reach Low 1-A, and 1-A is qualitatively unreachable in comparison to that.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not that bothered by the amp's scale, we have blind carpenters with 1-A souls and that Supergirl that went 11-D via emotion powah, but the fact that it's never showcased before or again does shake the validity alot.

And you did have a point regarding duration, its not as though number of sources of sunlight should make as much a difference as time spent absorbing it.

Overall, unsure on this feat.

Okay. Thank you for being reasonable. If Superman had repeatedly displayed this level of power from the power-up in question, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but as it is, it stands out like an absolutely bizarre blip in the statistics.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Although if you want to know if this feat could be an Outlier I would recommend you to check this blog.

Outliers: How to recognize and identify them

vsbattles.fandom.com

Before deciding whether something is an outlier or not, we must check that it meets the requirements to be considered one:

- 1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several planetary feats shows himself capable of destroying a star, we cannot consider him as an outlier, for the simple reason that the jump between categories is not extreme enough to be so, no matter how big the jump between energy values we attribute to him. Having previously performed an interquartile range, we already know the answer. If the character has very few feats, we can ignore this point.

- 2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? Outliers occur rarely. If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also skip this point.

- 3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability or limiter, surely it is not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with kryptonite, it is not.

- 4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.

- 5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to the outlier.

If the answer to all or most of the above questions is "yes", we are probably facing an outlier. Recall that the decision to classify something as an outlier or not will always ultimately be an exercise of subjective interpretation.

 

[Planck69]

To be quite fair, if he repeatedly showcased this level of power, it'd leave me wondering why villains would even bother.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly believe that the answer is "yes" to all five outlier qualifiers.

 

[Eficiente]

I don't think the feat's 1-A? Yes it's inside the 6º dimension but the World Forger was inside his replicated small Multiverse, being smaller than the "Portrayed as bigger than Creation" thing his profile claims.

 

[Antvasima]

To be quite fair, if he repeatedly showcased this level of power, it'd leave me wondering why villains would even bother.

Yes, but again, as our Marvel and DC rules say, we have to use some degree of consistency when evaluating the character statistics, since the writers have an occasional very bad tendency to just say "To h*** with it!" regarding all story logic, and use absolutely ridiculous powerscaling.

 

[LordTracer]

I have to disagree with this feat fitting qualifiers 3 and 4. It is not unexplained or unjustified, it’s literally an amp. That’s an explanation. And it doesn’t break pre-established powerscaling because it doesn’t scale to anyone but Kal himself.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think the feat's 1-A? Yes it's inside the 6º dimension but the World Forger was inside his replicated small Multiverse, being smaller than the "Portrayed as bigger than Creation" thing his profile claims.

Yeah, but the World Forger was supposed to be at full power inside of the 6th Dimension, and be larger than the multiverse, including the 5th Dimension, there as well, if I remember correctly, so it didn't really make any sense that the JLA were even able to interact with him there.

 

[Planck69]

This entire feat feels like a headache, tiering aside.

And forgive me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read it but wasn't the environmental damage from the punch like Tier 6?

 

[Antvasima]

I have to disagree with this feat fitting qualifiers 3 and 4. It is not unexplained or unjustified, it’s literally an amp. That’s an explanation. And it doesn’t break pre-established powerscaling because it doesn’t scale to anyone but Kal himself.

It is definitely unjustified and unexplained why the amplification would suddenly be so much more ridiculously extreme than in previous instances, and it breaks the established powerscaling partially for the same reason, and for not fitting with any other power displays.

 

[Confluctor]

And forgive me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read it but wasn't the environmental damage from the punch like Tier 6?

yes

 

[Kulf_Boba]

I have to disagree with this feat fitting qualifiers 3 and 4. It is not unexplained or unjustified, it’s literally an amp. That’s an explanation. And it doesn’t break pre-established powerscaling because it doesn’t scale to anyone but Kal himself.

If no one else has achieved a similar level with the same amplifier, this feat is probably an Outlier.

 

[Confluctor]

If no one else has achieved a similar level with the same amplifier, this feat is probably an Outlier.

only been used once and that's it. so can't say much tbh

 

[Antvasima]

This entire feat feels like a headache, tiering aside.

And forgive me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read it but wasn't the environmental damage from the punch like Tier 6?

It was left unclear. Superman interrupted the World Forger from striking his anvil to replace the regular DC multiverse with his own nicer draft version, and I think that we were shown some chunks of the planet he stood on floating around afterwards. However, from what I recall, a Twitter comment from the writer clarified that Superman did not suddenly have the power to wreck multiverses, it was some kind of "chain reaction" due to destabilising it by preventing the World Forger from imposing it on reality. Again, the story did not make almost any sense to me.

 

[Planck69]

yes

So, he cold-clocks a 1-A and performed a 2-A feat in the process whose aftermath wasn't even 5-C? Hmm....

I know it sound like I'm leaning to an AoE fallacy on that but that doesn't seem right.

 

[Antvasima]

So, he cold-clocks a 1-A and performed a 2-A feat in the process whose aftermath wasn't even 5-C? Hmm....

I know it sound like I'm leaning to an AoE fallacy on that but that doesn't seem right.

Yes, again, the story logic was not coherently put together, explained or shown to the readers.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

only been used once and that's it. so can't say much tbh

Didn't they mention that other characters have been amplified by the sun and have not reached anywhere near similar levels?

 

[Confluctor]

Didn't they mention that other characters have been amplified by the sun and have not reached anywhere near similar levels?

not on this level, I don't think so

 

[Antvasima]

The writer did not mention it within the story, no, but Superman has made previous sun-dips and never reached anywhere near this scale.

 

[Planck69]

Is it maybe just possible that the writers probably weren't writing a villain who viewed the league as less than fiction of fiction of fiction......of fiction? The narrative didn't put World Foerger's power as high as it should be.

But we stick to what we have and that's currently 1-A Forger.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

The writer did not mention it within the story, no, but Superman has made previous sun-dips and never reached anywhere near this scale.

So it's a "Yes" for these questions:

• 2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident?
• 5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, it is a "Yes" for all 5 points, as far as I can tell.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Yes, it is a "Yes" for all 5 points, as far as I can tell.

Except in question 3

 

[Kulf_Boba]

As ridiculous as the justification is, it is still valid because the writer took the trouble to put it in. Although from what you mention the justification itself is inconsistent with what was stated or shown above.

 

[Elizio33]

While this feat is probably a big outlier, it's worth noting that given the very nature of the Sixth Dimension acting as the realm of the impossible and the unimaginable, we can assume that Superman achieved the unthinkable and defeated the World Forger. This kind of feat should be technically impossible, but that's essentially what Sixth Dimension is all about: the impossible.

So I guess this feat doesn't count as a real Superman feat given it was the nature of the Sixth Dimension that allowed such a feat to happen and should be removed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I really can't judge the cosmology of DC given I thought there was going to be arguments against it. But something being called "The 6th dimension" being a 1-A power source? I know Superman had some 6-D plot armor given to him by Mr Mxyzptlk, why was is "Sixth dimension" a 1-A structure?

I'd think it sounds massively outlierish for him to be fighting a 1-A character when it was a Low 1-C character who kind of gives him plot armor for things like this to begin with. I know he was amped by taking baths in a countless number of stars, but that in itself is a really awkward way to amplify him when simply taking one in the hottest star in the universe for long periods would logically be more effective realistically speaking. But is this the full power World Forger or just a nerfed version is the question. I think it's definite outlier for this Superman to be able to fight anyone above Mxy, but would have been fine with it if Low 1-C or below. Also, I know Prime One Million was deleted, but even back when we assumed he's logically above all those other Supermen who were in the sun for much lower periods, that version still has anti-feats that prove he's canonically weaker than Mr Mxy. If we want to be consistent with that, we should be consistent here.

I am uniformingly against it if it's a 1-A feat, but otherwise neutral unless there's arguments to say it's not that high.

 

[Planck69]

Well, I really can't judge the cosmology of DC given I thought there was going to be arguments against it. But something being called "The 6th dimension" being a 1-A power source? I know Superman had some 6-D plot armor given to him by Mr Mxyzptlk, why was is "Sixth dimension" a 1-A structure?

I'd think it sounds massively outlierish for him to be fighting a 1-A character when it was a Low 1-C character who kind of gives him plot armor for things like this to begin with. I know he was amped by taking baths in a countless number of stars, but that in itself is a really awkward way to amplify him when simply taking one in the hottest star in the universe for long periods would logically be more effective realistically speaking. But is this the full power World Forger or just a nerfed version is the question. I think it's definite outlier for this Superman to be able to fight anyone above Mxy, but would have been fine with it if Low 1-C or below. Also, I know Prime One Million was deleted, but even back when we assumed he's logically above all those other Supermen who were in the sun for much lower periods, that version still has anti-feats that prove he's canonically weaker than Mr Mxy. If we want to be consistent with that, we should be consistent here.

I am uniformingly against it if it's a 1-A feat, but otherwise neutral unless there's arguments to say it's not that high.

The naming conventions of DC's higher order planes aren't representative of their tiering. Mxyzptlk has High 1-C levels of power despite being a Fifth Dimensional Imp for instance. Granted the cosmology is due a revision but until then we operate under current standards.

As for why he did so many dips, Rule of Cool most likely.

I think Mr. Mxyzptlk not granting as much of a boon was addressed in the comic but its all very fuzzy so you might be onto something there.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Well, I really can't judge the cosmology of DC given I thought there was going to be arguments against it. But something being called "The 6th dimension" being a 1-A power source? I know Superman had some 6-D plot armor given to him by Mr Mxyzptlk, why was is "Sixth dimension" a 1-A structure?

It's considered as such currently, but I heard it's gonna be downgraded to Low 1-C eventually (which is still too high based on feats shown by the characters imo, but it's better than Outerversal). The Sixth Dimension being 1-A never made sense in the first place

I'd think it sounds massively outlierish for him to be fighting a 1-A character when it was a Low 1-C character who kind of gives him plot armor for things like this to begin with.

To make sure we're on the same page, the key in question is an amped Superman. It's not outlier-ish, because it was a one time thing.

But is this the full power World Forger or just a nerfed version is the question.

Yes, it was the full power World Forger, since it was in the Sixth Dimension.

Also, I know Prime One Million was deleted, but even back when we assumed he's logically above all those other Supermen who were in the sun for much lower periods, that version still has anti-feats that prove he's canonically weaker than Mr Mxy. If we want to be consistent with that, we should be consistent here.

Thankfully, DC is being revised. A decent amount of those inconsistencies should be resolved.

Oh, and yes, Superman being amped by a supposedly Low 1-C power source in order to enter a supposedly 1-A realm literally makes no sense, logic or scaling wise.

 

[Hasty12345]

Sorry, I don't have permission to post here, so do remove my comment if inappropriate. That being said, I do have some questions of which I believe the answers may be fairly important in determining the legitimacy of the feat. I would firstly like to note I also have not and don't read comics, so if these questions are in no way applicable/relevant, just delete this comment.

1. If the fight takes place in the 6th dimension, were the sun dips in the 6th dimension - this would lead to the idea the suns are 6th dimensional sources of energy and thus already "aleph 2" energy sources?

2. If the WF is depicted/stated to be in his "true form", would it also follow he's his natural size? As such, IF Superman himself is depicted as relative in size to the WF (and/or his creation), wouldn't it also be reasonable to assume he's not only amped by sun dips. but also his sheer size? Obviously, unless there's an in-verse explanation as to why he'd be that big it may be PIS, however, if Superman is in any way relative in size to these 1-A objects, it's not unreasonable to assume his size helped him perform the feat.

3. I see comparisons being brought up from this comic here: https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Superman:_The_Last_God_of_Krypton

Which is from 1999? Given the series of reboots and other continuity "resets", is it appropriate to use any "feats" and/or "anti-feats" that aren't from Rebirth (or whatever the current continuity is) to evaluate what determines an outlier? It seems very hypocritical to both split up the continuities and then cross scale anti-feats.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Is it maybe just possible that the writers probably weren't writing a villain who viewed the league as less than fiction of fiction of fiction......of fiction?

Probably because The World Forger doesn't and never has viewed the multiverse as fiction; unless he's creating fictional realities here, which both lacks evidence, and is incoherent. Also, a character superior to Perpetua was getting beat up by another character who should be ontologically inferior to him, assuming what you're saying is true. In fact, the entirety of Perpetua's storyline falls apart assuming there is a reality>fiction difference between the 3rd, 5th, and 6th dimension.

The narrative didn't put World Foerger's power as high as it should be.

If you don't mind me asking, how high should his power be in your opinion?

 

[Swerzye29038]

Sorry, I don't have permission to post here, so do remove my comment if inappropriate.

^^ Say the word and I'll permanently stop typing here

 

[SomebodyData]

Probably because The World Forger doesn't and never has viewed the multiverse as fiction; unless he's creating fictional realities here, which both lacks evidence, and is incoherent. Also, a character superior to Perpetua was getting beat up by another character who should be ontologically inferior to him, assuming what you're saying is true. In fact, the entirety of Perpetua's storyline falls apart assuming there is a reality>fiction difference between the 3rd, 5th, and 6th dimension.

If you don't mind me asking, how high should his power be in your opinion?

It kinda sounds like Swezye is on to something here.

Just sounds like they ditched some parts of the reality-fiction elements during this story.

 

[Confluctor]

The DC scaling is a mess right now, they don't even need the low 1-c part but it's there for whatever reason. In any case, some of its rather irrelevant to the discussion, so let's stick to what matters please.

 

[Confluctor]

Sorry, I don't have permission to post here, so do remove my comment if inappropriate. That being said, I do have some questions of which I believe the answers may be fairly important in determining the legitimacy of the feat. I would firstly like to note I also have not and don't read comics, so if these questions are in no way applicable/relevant, just delete this comment.

It's fine, it's an important comment

1. If the fight takes place in the 6th dimension, were the sun dips in the 6th dimension - this would lead to the idea the suns are 6th dimensional sources of energy and thus already "aleph 2" energy sources?

That is a possibility. It was also stated that - iirc - the sixth dimension is a dimension where the impossible can happen.

So it is possible the sun's were amped by a higher power source. Which means this can't be scaled to Superman at his base. Cause normal suns wouldn't do the same.

2. If the WF is depicted/stated to be in his "true form", would it also follow he's his natural size? As such, IF Superman himself is depicted as relative in size to the WF (and/or his creation), wouldn't it also be reasonable to assume he's not only amped by sun dips. but also his sheer size? Obviously, unless there's an in-verse explanation as to why he'd be that big it may be PIS, however, if Superman is in any way relative in size to these 1-A objects, it's not unreasonable to assume his size helped him perform the feat.

Its sort of an unwritten rule in DCU I suppose. If you go to higher Dimensions, your size needs to be adjusted to it. Otherwise it would be hard to grasp it.

One way of looking at it, Mxy not only amped his comprehension powers but also his size so he won't even notice.

3. I see comparisons being brought up from this comic here: https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Superman:_The_Last_God_of_Krypton

Which is from 1999? Given the series of reboots and other continuity "resets", is it appropriate to use any "feats" and/or "anti-feats" that aren't from Rebirth (or whatever the current continuity is) to evaluate what determines an outlier? It seems very hypocritical to both split up the continuities and then cross scale anti-feats.

I have to agree here that we can't use decades old stuff to make new ones seems like outlier. Things change.

Also refer to my first point, so maybe this is how it works in lower worlds and the one we saw in JL 25 is something that can only happen in a higher order world?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Currently, Superman seems to be getting stronger. With the ALE, he punched barbatos who killed World Forger.

I suggest that we just remove the key and wait till more comics come out, do more research to have a better idea. If you disagree with this, then I'll just agree with the OP, either just remove it or make it 1-A

 

[Confluctor]

So it comes down to the fact that both of these low 1-C/1-A feats happen due to higher dimensional amps. Hmm