Superman (Rebirth) 2-A removal

[Confluctor]

STAFF ONLY! And some knowledgeable members

Superman (Rebirth)

Every day, the most powerful man in the world puts a coat over his cape and goes to work. He could be anyone... and chooses to be kind. I honestly don't know why. Maybe because he knows what it's like to be lonely. To be the only one left. And he doesn't want anyone else to feel that way... So...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Currently, we have this for his file;

Multiverse level+ after an unknown number of sun dips (Destroyed the World Forger's masterpiece, his new multiverse, which was intended to replace the local Multiverse of 52 universes, and also knocking out The World Forger himself, leaving him on the ground, coughing and with a bloody black eye [1])

• We do not consider Superman's ability to seriously hurt The World Forger after an unknown number of sun dips to be an outlier due to its existence as a one-time power up. Not only was that the first time Superman had ever attempted to absorb such a high level of energy, but both the narrator and the writer acknowledged that he had been amplified well beyond his usual limits before the fight. Similarly, we do not consider this a low showing for The World Forger either, since he was repeatedly established as a multiversal threat throughout that story.

The problem with this is that he beat World Forger in the Sixth Dimension, thus it is a 1-A feat. Even if you wanna argue something lower, it will be at least a 1-B feat.

So, we should probably use this thread to find out what to do with him and this statistic of his. Upgrade him all the way to 1-A, or remove it and consider it an outlier?

Currently, we have reached to these two conclusions;

A: Giving the 1-A World Forger a black eye from some sun dips, that have never remotely powered up Superman to anywhere near this degree previously, is a ridiculously extreme outlier that is irreconcilable with the overall narrative of the character, as he could have ended virtually every single world-threatening conflict that he has ever been involved in with extreme ease otherwise.

B: Very special circumstances were in effect here. More specifically, Mxyzptlk had imbued Superman with power for years in order to send him to the 6th Dimension, which is a higher order of existence, and Superman then powered up further via 6th Dimensional stars, created by a wishing machine, and this should be specified in a special statistics key in his character profile page.

Now only thing left is to decide which option to go for.

 

[Confluctor]

@Antvasima gather input for this

 

[Antvasima]

I obviously think that a 1-A Superman seems like an extreme "everybody can fight everybody" plot-induced stupidity outlier that would completely mess up our entire scaling system for DC Comics.

@C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @The_Impress @Planck69 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Antvasima]

I obviously think that a 1-A Superman seems like an extreme "everybody can fight everybody" plot-induced stupidity outlier that would completely mess up our entire scaling system for DC Comics.

@AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou

Your help would also be very appreciated here.

 

[LordTracer]

I mean… it’s an amp that doesn’t remotely scale to base Kal or anyone else, and this is the only feat of said amp. I don’t really see how it can be an outlier.

I wouldn’t mind removing the statistic just because it was only in like one issue, but the outlier argument doesn’t make too much sense to me.

Does Kal becoming 1-A just by sundipping make sense? Not really, but it’s what happened so ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Don't know much regarding this but I do think it's ridiculous for him to breach into tier 1 just because he sun dipped a lot. But I guess it depends on the consistency of how it's portrayed, by that I mean, has this Superman received massive boosts like this from sun dipping a lot or no?

 

[Confluctor]

has this Superman received massive boosts like this from sun dipping a lot or no?

nah this was the first time we saw him absorb this much energy. everything else before it was quite low

 

[Armorchompy]

If there's any kind of anti-feat or even generally being portrayed a smaller amp, then definitely remove it. Otherwise, I dunno, technically it's fine if quite silly.

 

[Confluctor]

no antifeats so far, but definitely doesn't belong in 2-A. so should probably be changed to something else if we decide to keep it.

 

[Antvasima]

As I mentioned above, I definitely want to remove it. It doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever that Superman would increase an uncountable degrees of infinity in power just from several sun-dips.

This kind of extreme outlier is also a part of an ongoing plot-induced stupidity story convention for Marvel and DC Comics characters. See here for further information:

Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics

There are several massive problems with using power-scaling for these two prominent franchises that have shared hundreds of different authors over several decades. Said writers naturally tend to have highly differing opinions and interpretations, which is reflected in their stories. Quite often...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

If we do keep it would be upgraded to the appropriate tier, like Confluctor said.

Though is it necessary to have it though? Something like this happened once, and I don't think it's something that will happen again or be used in the threads.

If it happened only once and never again, I don't see why we shouldn't remove it.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed. It was a one-time "rule of cool" outlier. Superman cannot punch out The Living Tribunal any time he feels like it just by charging himself inside of a star.

 

[LordTracer]

I don’t think bringing up another character from another verse is really a good argument against it…

 

[Antvasima]

It is just to illustrate the sheer absurdity of the situation.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I have to switch to my daily wiki edit-patrolling work and then go to sleep. I hope that it is safe to leave this thread in the meantime. I might check here an extra time shortly before I go to sleep though.

 

[Antvasima]

If there's any kind of anti-feat or even generally being portrayed a smaller amp, then definitely remove it. Otherwise, I dunno, technically it's fine if quite silly.

He has been able to barely contend with the Kryptonian goddess Cythonna by supercharging himself inside of a star in the past, but he has never been able to get anywhere near infinitely stronger by doing so previously, much less an uncountably infinite number of degrees of infinity.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

(I received permission to comment here once by the OP. I’ll keep my activity on this thread limited to this one comment since it’s staff-only)

I don’t buy a lot of the arguments for removing it.

Don’t see how this could be an outlier that “completely messes up our entire scaling system for DC Comics” if no one ever fought Superman in this state. This literally affects only the mega-amped Kal.

I know it doesn’t make logical sense for him to become infinitely stronger by sundipping but that seems like fallacious reasoning to dismiss the feat. Moving faster-than-light while simultaneously possessing finite mass, moving planets out of orbit with your bare hands, and gaining Tier 5-4 statistics by absorbing energy from a High 6-A power source (the sun) also doesn’t make real when applying real world logic, but this is a comic book. Superboy-Prime and other Pre-Crisis Kryptonians should lose their Tier 2 statistics if gaining infinite power by absorbing energy from the sun is a dealbreaker.

Though of course if there’s some rule that says one-off amps can’t be indexed then scrapping the key is fine I guess.

Edit: It should also be taken into account that he absorbed energy from multiple stars, so Anti-Feats where he absorbed energy from only one star shouldn’t apply to this.

 

[Antvasima]

He has been able to barely contend with the Kryptonian goddess Cythonna by supercharging himself inside of a star in the past, but he has never been able to get anywhere near infinitely stronger by doing so previously, much less an uncountably infinite number of degrees of infinity.

He was still overpowered by Cythonna though. See here for information:

Superman: The Last God of Krypton

"Superman: The Last God of Krypton": An alien woman emerges from a structure that appears to be floating in space. She discovers Krypton has been destroyed but then detects a touch of warmth. She flies towards the direction of earth so that she can destroy the last Kryptonian. Superman: The Last...

dc.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

(I received permission to comment here once by the OP. I’ll keep my activity on this thread limited to this one comment since it’s staff-only)

I don’t buy a lot of the arguments for removing it.

Don’t see how this could be an outlier that “completely messes up our entire scaling system for DC Comics” if no one ever fought Superman in this state. This literally affects only the mega-amped Kal.

I know it doesn’t make logical sense for him to become infinitely stronger by sundipping but that seems like fallacious reasoning to dismiss the feat. Moving faster-than-light while simultaneously possessing finite mass, moving planets out of orbit with your bare hands, and gaining Tier 5-4 statistics by absorbing energy from a High 6-A power source (the sun) also doesn’t make real when applying real world logic, but this is a comic book. Superboy-Prime and other Pre-Crisis Kryptonians should lose their Tier 2 statistics if gaining infinite power by absorbing energy from the sun is a dealbreaker.

Cythonna has fought Superman in a sun-dip-charged state, and she was still more powerful, and she does not have anywhere near infinite power. I would also be surprised if Superman has not been challenged by other opponents when sun-dipped as well.

You are arguing for that Superman gains power equivalent to the Living Tribunal and similar characters simply by standing inside of a star for long enough. That is utterly ridiculous and implausible even by superhero comic book standards.

Though of course if there’s some rule that says one-off amps can’t be indexed then scrapping the key is fine I guess.

We actually do have a rule against this sort of practice in the Marvel and DC Comics rules page, yes.

 

[LordTracer]

Kal didn’t have anywhere near the amount of sundips against Cythonna as he did against World Forger though, so I don’t think that means much.

 

[LordTracer]

Just looking at the note on Kal’s profile:

• We do not consider Superman's ability to seriously hurt The World Forger after an unknown number of sun dips to be an outlier due to its existence as a one-time power up. Not only was that the first time Superman had ever attempted to absorb such a high level of energy, but both the narrator and the writer acknowledged that he had been amplified well beyond his usual limits before the fight. Similarly, we do not consider this a low showing for The World Forger either, since he was repeatedly established as a multiversal threat throughout that story.

So his sun dips against World Forger >>> his sun dips against Cythonna

 

[Antvasima]

Kal didn’t have anywhere near the amount of sundips against Cythonna as he did against World Forger though, so I don’t think that means much.

Only the time spent within a star should matter. Performing a few dozen sun-dips rather than staying within a star for a prolonged period of time should logically not make any difference for his absorption rate. Marvel and DC Comics writers recurrently do not care if the stories make any sense or not in terms of powerscaling, but we still have a responsibility to try to make our pages as reliable as possible by basing them on some measure of consistency.

 

[Antvasima]

Just looking at the note on Kal’s profile:

• We do not consider Superman's ability to seriously hurt The World Forger after an unknown number of sun dips to be an outlier due to its existence as a one-time power up. Not only was that the first time Superman had ever attempted to absorb such a high level of energy, but both the narrator and the writer acknowledged that he had been amplified well beyond his usual limits before the fight. Similarly, we do not consider this a low showing for The World Forger either, since he was repeatedly established as a multiversal threat throughout that story.

So his sun dips against World Forger >>> his sun dips against Cythonna

That note is utter BS in terms of logic if the alternatives are only to either give Superman a 1-A rating from absorbing part of the energy of a few stars that were only an extremely tiny part of a multiverse that the World Forger created in the first place, or to disregard an astonishingly ridiculously extreme outlier that does not qualify for being referenced according to our rules anyway, as it was not a prolonged or repeated events during which Superman was consistently supercharged to this degree lasting at least 15 comic book issues in sum total.

As far as I recall, the main reason why we accepted 2-A previously is that the Pre-Crisis Superman had a few feats of that level, and we did not know for certain if the newest incarnation shared the same history and powerlevels at the time. However, currently it definitely seems like he does not, and 1-A is an unfathomably more extreme rating.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I honestly think the feat is fine. Superman has always been the portrayal of ultimate heroism who will save the day, somehow. Saying it's an outlier is very arbitrary and based off the numbers rather than the context. This scales to no one but Supes so there's really no issue.

 

[Armorchompy]

We actually do have a rule against this sort of practice in the Marvel and DC Comics rules page, yes.

We have a rule against keys, not amps that are part of the same key, I believe.

But generally, if we considered 2-A acceptable I see no reason that 1-A wouldn't be, in the end they're both infinitely higher. And this is done with many sundips, not just one. It still makes little sense but there's little reason to disregard it in my opinion.

 

[Antvasima]

I honestly think the feat is fine. Superman has always been the portrayal of ultimate heroism who will save the day, somehow. Saying it's an outlier is very arbitrary and based off the numbers rather than the context. This scales to no one but Supes so there's really no issue.

He has never been portrayed at anywhere near these levels when sundipped previously, and it does not remotely make any sense. As you say, he is portrayed as always saving the day, regardless if it is logical or not, which is the main definition of rule of cool plot-induced stupidity.

 

[Armorchompy]

When sundipped in only one sun, which is not a state that is as strong as this one. No matter what tropes led to the writers choosing to portray it this way, that doesn't change the events themselves.

 

[Antvasima]

We have a rule against keys, not amps that are part of the same key, I believe.

But generally, if we considered 2-A acceptable I see no reason that 1-A wouldn't be, in the end they're both infinitely higher. And this is done with many sundips, not just one. It still makes little sense but there's little reason to disregard it in my opinion.

An amplification has to have been featured in at least 15 separate story issues in order to be featured according to our rules as far as I recall, and not be insanely consistent at the time when this happened. Regular Superman was able to survive casual blows from Cythonna, and supercharging himself still did not bring him up to her level, and that is just an example from the top of my head. There are likely others as well.

 

[Antvasima]

When sundipped in only one sun, which is not a state that is as strong as this one. No matter what tropes led to the writers choosing to portray it this way, that doesn't change the events themselves.

Superman has previously been portrayed as having a limited sunlight absorption rate. Staying within one star for a few hours logically charges him more than travelling between several of them for a considerably more limited time. Heck, he stayed within the Sun for 15,000 years once, and still did not drain it of all its power.

Seriously, Post-Crisis Superman is one of my favourite characters, but we have to always focus on making an serious effort to provide reliable information, not include the most obscene outliers imaginable.

 

[Armorchompy]

An amplification has to have been featured in at least 15 separate story issues in order to be featured according to our rules as far as I recall, and not be insanely consistent at the time when this happened.

From what I can see the rules only concern keys. Which does make sense, since not featuring amps that aren't used enough would lead to an incomplete file.

Regular Superman was able to survive casual blows from Cythonna, and supercharging himself still did not bring him up to her level, and that is just an example from the top of my head. There are likely others as well.

Single sundips are portrayed as a relatively small amp from my (limited) experience too, but this is different.

 

[Armorchompy]

Staying within one star for a few hours logically charges him more than travelling between several of them for a considerably more limited time.

That is true in theory. Does the issue specifically portray going through multiple suns as a bigger boost, though?

 

[Antvasima]

From what I can see the rules only concern keys. Which does make sense, since not featuring amps that aren't used enough would lead to an incomplete file.

Single sundips are portrayed as a relatively small amp from my (limited) experience too, but this is different.

This is a specific power-up, which works the same as a key. We simply did not add it as one for whatever reason.

That is true in theory. Does the issue specifically portray going through multiple suns as a bigger boost, though?

It was not explicitly stated as far as I recall, and a star should definitely not contain an Aleph-2 (?) degree of energy in the first place, or allow somebody to knock down the creator of the multiverse of which the star is a part. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far, even for fiction.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, this is one of my favourite characters, but reliability is king. We cannot give Superman tier 1-A level statistics just because it might be cool to do so.

 

[Armorchompy]

This is a specific power-up, which works the same as a key. We simply did not add it as one for whatever reason.

It can be accessed at any time, though, if with a highly specific and unlikely setup.

It was not explicitly stated as far as I recall, and a star should definitely not contain an Aleph-2 (?) degree of energy in the first place, or allow somebody to knock down the creator of the multiverse of which the star is a part. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far, even for fiction.

I mean, that's not more ridiculous than a 4-B (or 2-C) being getting his power from a 4-C star even when he's at such a distance that the energy he'd absorb from it would be 10-C.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Feat is fine

 

[Kulf_Boba]

I obviously think that a 1-A Superman seems like an extreme "everybody can fight everybody" plot-induced stupidity outlier that would completely mess up our entire scaling system for DC Comics.

@Kulf_Boba

I'm sorry but I don't know anything about DC Comics, I only know a little about Marvel's Herald Tiers.

 

[Planck69]

As much as the idea of the feat itself makes me laugh, there's really no leg to stand in regards to removing it as far as any outlier arguments go aside from arguing via incredulity.

Does it make any logical sense? No.

But by that same logic, a good chunk of the wiki would go since no one can train a finite internal energy to Tier 2, amp themselves to FTL etc.

At best, an argument could be made about it being one-off and not indexable if such a rule exists but the feat being 2-A or 1-A doesn't somehow make it less or more sensible.

 

[Antvasima]

It can be accessed at any time, though, if with a highly specific and unlikely setup.

It has always been treated as a far more realistic power-up in the past as far as I recall, so this time was extremely different.

I mean, that's not more ridiculous than a 4-B (or 2-C) being getting his power from a 4-C star even when he's at such a distance that the energy he'd absorb from it would be 10-C.

I draw the line of suyspension of disbelief long before absorbing sunlight can reach an Aleph-2 degree of power. It is not remotely within the regular realm of possibility for even superhero stories.

 

[LordTracer]

As much as the idea of the feat itself makes me laugh, there's really no leg to stand in regards to removing it as far as any outlier arguments go aside from arguing via incredulity.

Does it make any logical sense? No.

But by that same logic, a good chunk of the wiki would go since no one can train a finite internal energy to Tier 2, amp themselves to FTL etc.

At best, an argument could be made about it being one-off and not indexable if such a rule exists but the feat being 2-A or 1-A doesn't somehow make it less or more sensible.

I agree completely with this. The only reason it should be removed is that it was in like a single issue and not relevant enough.

 

[Armorchompy]

I draw the line of suyspension of disbelief long before absorbing sunlight can reach an Aleph-2 degree of power. It is not remotely within the regular realm of possibility for even superhero stories.

This might be because of how little I care for tier 1/2 but I see no difference between getting 2-C and 1-A from a star, they're both infinitely and qualitatively higher amounts of energy compared to the source. But, I don't think that's reason to not use them, as silly as it is.