Superman (Rebirth) 2-A removal

[Swerzye29038]

So your argument should be "hey this should be listed as a key not just a thing he could do", not, " Remove it altogether ".

Which, fine, seems agreeable.

My argument is that there are multiple logical ways to go about this

we can either:

A) Change Superman’s tier justification from “4-B. 2-A after an unknown number of sun dips” to “4-B. 2-A after flying through an unknown number of Sixth Dimensional suns”

Or

B) Remove the tier entirely, but you seem to be strictly against that, since it’s extremely relevant to canon.

And seriously, why is Superman in that key even considered Multiversal+?

1. Saying Superman destroyed the multiverse would be the same as rating a hypothetical man 7-B for causing the destruction of a hypothetical city by accidentally slipping and falling on a hypothetical red button, which causes the hypothetical bomb to go off.

This same logic applies to the “feat”. Sure, you could say that the man destroyed the City, but it wasn’t of his own “power”, so it would be more accurate to say he caused it. The same applies to Superman. You could say he destroyed World Forgers Multiverse, but it wasn’t of his own physically power, it was the act of preventing World Forger from landing the final strike, which inevitably led to it being destroyed.

To summarize:

Assuming we’re keeping the key, it should be changed to “4-B. 2-A after flying through an unknown number of Sixth Dimensional suns”. When taking into account that he didn’t actually destroy the multiverse of his own power, it would be more logical for it to say “4-B. 2-C, possibly 2-A after an flying through an unknown number of Sixth Dimensional suns”.

 

[Confluctor]

But we are treating these suns as normal suns, so that would be dumb to call them higher tiered suns

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Technically, the feat required massive amounts of prep time, outside help, and access to a power up that Superman pretty much has never had access before hand and ever again. Even the suns he dipped in aren't normal suns but 6-D suns. Though, the specific feat is so one note, that do we really allow a key for that? Considering we made it against the rules to make profiles for characters who only appeared in one comic and never appeared again. And especially if it's the type of character who is officially comparable if not superior to Superman, but their best direct feat is them performing a 9-B feat. Wouldn't that also apply to one off power ups?

 

[Antvasima]

About the antifeats... Anything from recent years? Like in the last 3 - 5 years?

He had not even approached any High 4-C scale of feats in recent years previous to this as far as I recall, and his Post-Flashpoint version was generally treated as far weaker than the Post-Crisis one until the two merged together their histories and memories.

I am not saying it's not absurd, but we already give absurd level of stats to tons of weeb verses. Somehow it doesn't break for them but it does here... Idk.

We should always give high levels of power when they are consistent, not when they completely break the narrative. But I am sure that there are other verses with unreliable statistics in this wiki, which I was not able to stop due to insufficient knowledge about them. Several wrongs do not make a right in any case, which should basically be an ongoing motto for this wiki.

Also if this was such a huge outlier, why did you accept it in the original thread? Most comic stats can't applied without your approval, so why? Genuinely wondering cause I wasn't around back then.

I do not remember, but I probably thought that 2-A had some precedence for the Pre-Crisis version of Superman, and didn't have the energy to constantly fight the fan uproar that would come if we did not accept it.

However, given that this would logically not be a 2-A feat at all, but a 1-A one (or possibly 1-B after our upcoming cosmology revisions), that is where I draw the line for how ridiculous I am willing to let us get.

Safer solution here is to just give him "higher with sun dips" idk. Easy way out.

"Higher with sun-dips" while listing some less extreme examples of his power-ups in this state is fine.

 

[Confluctor]

So no matter what anyone say or argue about, it will get removed? Gotcha. Might wanna go ahead and remove then. Cause everyone is going be wasting our time when we could be doing something far more productive about it.

 

[Antvasima]

My argument is that there are multiple logical ways to go about this

we can either:

A) Change Superman’s tier justification from “4-B. 2-A after an unknown number of sun dips” to “4-B. 2-A after flying through an unknown number of Sixth Dimensional suns”

Or

B) Remove the tier entirely, but you seem to be strictly against that, since it’s extremely relevant to canon.

Again, the problem is that it is a tier 1-A or 1-B feat, which completely breaks the narrative history for the character.

And seriously, why is Superman in that key even considered Multiversal+?

1. Saying Superman destroyed the multiverse would be the same as rating a hypothetical man 7-B for causing the destruction of a hypothetical city by accidentally slipping and falling on a hypothetical red button, which causes the hypothetical bomb to go off.

This same logic applies to the “feat”. Sure, you could say that the man destroyed the City, but it wasn’t of his own “power”, so it would be more accurate to say he caused it. The same applies to Superman. You could say he destroyed World Forgers Multiverse, but it wasn’t of his own physically power, it was the act of preventing World Forger from landing the final strike, which inevitably led to it being destroyed.

These are good points. In that case we are left with only scaling from Superman giving the World Forger a black eye. We would have to explain why we consider the feat as unreliable in this regard in a footnote near the bottom of Superman's profile page though.

To summarize:

Assuming we’re keeping the key, it should be changed to “4-B. 2-A after flying through an unknown number of Sixth Dimensional suns”. When taking into account that he didn’t actually destroy the multiverse of his own power, it would be more logical for it to say “4-B. 2-C, possibly 2-A after an flying through an unknown number of Sixth Dimensional suns”.

Again, the problem is that fighting the World Forger in the 6th Dimension would be many levels of infinity above 2-A, unless Mxyzptlk somehow managed to almost enchance the Justice League to the World Forger's level by sending them there.

 

[Swerzye29038]

But we are treating these suns as normal suns, so that would be dumb to call them higher tiered suns

Why are we assuming that a realm in which Superman had to be continuously amped for years in order to enter contains “normal” suns?

 

[Confluctor]

Why are we assuming that a realm in which Superman had to be continuously amped for years in order to enter contains “normal” suns?

I am going by what ant said earlier.

 

[Antvasima]

Technically, the feat required massive amounts of prep time, outside help, and access to a power up that Superman pretty much has never had access before hand and ever again. Even the suns he dipped in aren't normal suns but 6-D suns. Though, the specific feat is so one note, that do we really allow a key for that? Considering we made it against the rules to make profiles for characters who only appeared in one comic and never appeared again. And especially if it's the type of character who is officially comparable if not superior to Superman, but their best direct feat is them performing a 9-B feat. Wouldn't that also apply to one off power ups?

I think that a power-up that lasted for a few pages, in a very hard to make sense of storyline, and contradicts all previous power-ups that happened in this manner, is not notable enough to include at least.

 

[Confluctor]

I don't care what happens to the stat, but I think notability argument has no backing. Unless your definition of notability is different than everyone else then sure ig?

 

[Antvasima]

So no matter what anyone say or argue about, it will get removed? Gotcha. Might wanna go ahead and remove then. Cause everyone is going be wasting our time when we could be doing something far more productive about it.

I apologise if I have brought offence. Featuring what to me seems like highly illogical information, and having to argue to extended periods of time when I have other work to do, easily annoy and stress me out.

 

[Antvasima]

Why are we assuming that a realm in which Superman had to be continuously amped for years in order to enter contains “normal” suns?

Well, if we go with the interpretation that Mxyzptlk somehow managed to amplify Superman and the rest of the Justice League to the World Forger's scale simply by sending them to the 6th Dimension, that would make far better sense than that the sun-dips alone did it, and also fit with how travel to Apocolips, New Genesis, and the Sphere of the Gods seems to work, at least via Boom Tubes.

I just had the impression that it was a "normal" 3-D multiverse that was going to replace the old one, not one that was 6th-Dimensional.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't know the specifics about it being in sixth dimension so I don't even know where 1-A is coming from.

But considering that's the case here's my opinion:

Supes is being amped by solar energy. This amp has always been portrayed inconsistently as far as I am aware. One reason is also because the amount of solar energy he absorbs depends on how much time he spends absorbing said energy (like SPOM). It doesn't matter if you spend 1 hour in 1 star, or 5 minutes each in 12 stars, the amount of energy remains the same.

Since the time spent absorbing this energy was rather short, I believe we can say that this particular amp is inconsistent when compared with the other similar scenarios.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Though, I should say that if we're going to remove the key or rating, we should at least write some changes to the foot note since we consider it 1-A as opposed to 2-A, and basically explain the reason we don't have it has to do with our rules regarding extremely brief one off powers.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't care what happens to the stat, but I think notability argument has no backing. Unless your definition of notability is different than everyone else then sure ig?

The story/event itself is notable, but our rules for consistency demand that a power-up that lasted for a few pages, rather than 15 issues, is not relevant enough to scale from or feature as a separate key.

 

[Confluctor]

Oh that's for a key, not a different stat.

 

[Antvasima]

Though, I should say that if we're going to remove the key or rating, we should at least write some changes to the foot note since we consider it 1-A as opposed to 2-A, and basically explain the reason we don't have it has to do with our rules regarding extremely brief one off powers.

Yes. Agreed. We should mention both that 1-A scaling would break the narrative and be too inconsistent with Superman's past feats and power-ups, along with that a feat that lasted a few pages is not relevant enough to list, that the multiverse was not destroyed by Superman according to the editor of the book, and that Mxyzptlk elevating Superman to the 6th Dimension may have significantly amplified the latter.

 

[Hasty12345]

Pardon the intrusion again.

However, given the DC cosmology is likely to get completely overhauled in the (hopefully near) future, it seems rather redundant to be worried about what tier the feat actually is.

The more pressing topic should be whether or not the feat it worthy of mention on the profile.

 

[Antvasima]

Oh that's for a key, not a different stat.

It should have been listed as a key in the first place. There were some very weird and hard to decipher plot points and specific circumstances that lead to this event, as I mentioned above.

 

[Overlord775]

The story/event itself is notable, but our rules for consistency demand that a power-up that lasted for a few pages, rather than 15 issues, is not relevant enough to scale from or feature as a separate key.

i know i'm not a staff, but, no, that just doesn't make sense.

The length of something =/= the notability of it. The amp is a big point of the whole run, so it is notable because of how deeply it affects the story.

 

[Antvasima]

Pardon the intrusion again.

However, given the DC cosmology is likely to get completely overhauled in the (hopefully near) future, it seems rather redundant to be worried about what tier the feat actually is.

The more pressing topic should be whether or not the feat it worthy of mention on the profile.

Well, if our upcoming cosmology revision is eventually accepted, it would still be a feat somewhere of a 1-B scale, which is still way too out of place for me to be able to accept.

 

[Antvasima]

i know i'm not a staff, but, no, that just doesn't make sense.

The length of something =/= the notability of it. The amp is a big point in the whole monitors/eterna arc, so it is notable because of how deeply it affects the story.

The point is mainly that a power-up has to be quite lengthy or repeated according to our scaling rules in order to be able to use it as a basis for a consistent/reliable pattern.

 

[Overlord775]

The point is mainly that a power-up has to be quite lengthy or repeated according to our scaling rules in order to be able to use it as a basis for a consistent/reliable pattern.

that's very much NOT an objective standard

by that logic white Phoenix Jane is not notable, nor is Movie Thanos having the full infinity guantlet

 

[Swerzye29038]

I just had the impression that it was a "normal" 3-D multiverse that was going to replace the old one, not one that was 6th-Dimensional.

It was a normal 3-D Multiverse that was going to be replaced. I was basically saying that you need to be extremely powerful to enter the Sixth Dimension, which supports the idea that everything in it (especially giant fire balls of gas) would be extremely powerful in comparison to normal suns as well, and since Superman is able to absorb that type of energy, he gained a super huge amp. In fact, the comic pretty much directly implies this.

 

[The_Impress]

We make no exceptions for events in our rules.

...we literally do. I MADE the rules. It SAYS we do.

And unless you want me to delete every key on Thanos' page we HAVE to make exception for events, nothing will get listed otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

that's very much NOT an objective standard

by that logic white Phoenix Jane is not notable, nor is Movie Thanos having the full infinity guantlet

Well, at the very least we have safeguards against using single out of place feats and brief power-ups to scale from.

 

[AKM sama]

Notability shouldn't even be an argument imo considering we can very easily call this amp an outlier due to how inconsistent it is when compared to other similar amps. To sufficiently explain why this particular amp is so much greater than the rest we would need to make tall assumptions like "he might have been absorbing the energy for years", or "the stars were infinitely superior to normal stars".

 

[The_Impress]

To sufficiently explain why this particular amp is so much greater than the rest we would need to make tall assumptions like "he might have been absorbing the energy for years", or "the stars were infinitely superior to normal stars".

It's not an assumption, he literally does the latter.

 

[Hasty12345]

Well, if our upcoming cosmology revision is eventually accepted, it would still be a feat somewhere of a 1-B scale, which is still way too out of place for me to be able to accept.

I have no stake in Superman's tier, however, for what it's worth, even without reading the comic I think the feat is narratively sound. I cannot think of a single media portrayal of Superman that remotely airs on the side of caution as far as logic is concerned. I happen to think Superman's whole narrative is whatever the plot needs. I understand this isn't helpful for indexing and battle boarding, but Superman is "that" kind of character.

So I don't think "narrative" is the best way to argue against this particular feat.

Our standards for new comic characters requires (I forgot the exact number) 15ish issue appearances. Simply put, this amp probably hasn't gotten enough screen time to have enough feats to be properly indexed. So if a note has to be put on his profile is should recognize the feat as legitimate, however mention that amp wasn't shown and/or doesn't have enough appearances to meet the profile requirements.

 

[Antvasima]

...we literally do. I MADE the rules. It SAYS we do.

And unless you want me to delete every key on Thanos' page we HAVE to make exception for events, nothing will get listed otherwise.

Here is what you wrote in the page:

"Please refrain from making profiles for characters with less than 20 appearances across comic books (approximately 2 years' worth of appearances) in regards to the Prime Marvel Universe and mainline DC continuity (Golden Age + Pre-Crisis + Post-Crisis + Post-Flashpoint + Rebirth) comics, unless they play an extremely important part in the overall plot and scaling of the characters, or are frequently mentioned by other medias, as the constantly changing nature of their statistics make it hard for us to keep files updated as is.

• For keys in existing profiles, and equipment files, one only requires at least 15 appearances across comic books, (approximately 1 year's worth of appearances), as opposed to 20."

This power-up, which lasted for only a few pages, is not extremely important for the scaling of the character. And we also have written rules about primarily using consistency and explicit destruction or creation feats to scale from. In this case, since it turns out that Superman did not in fact destroy a multiverse, all he did was give the World Forger a black eye.

 

[Swerzye29038]

by that logic white Phoenix Jane is not notable, nor is Movie Thanos having the full infinity guantlet

This is a non-sequitur. Thanos profile is listed as "6-C, higher with the Double-Bladed Sword. Varies, up to 5-A with the Power Stone. At least 3-A with the complete Infinity Gauntlet"

Superman is listed as "4-B. 2-A after an unknown number of sun dips", which assumes that this is something that Superman could do simply by sundipping in any star, which evidently isn't the case. The difference is that on Thanos profile, it explicitly outlines that he is only that powerful with the Infinity Gauntlet.

I'm also not sure why Jane was brought up, is there even a profile for that?

 

[Antvasima]

It was a normal 3-D Multiverse that was going to be replaced. I was basically saying that you need to be extremely powerful to enter the Sixth Dimension, which supports the idea that everything in it (especially giant fire balls of gas) would be extremely powerful in comparison to normal suns as well, and since Superman is able to absorb that type of energy, he gained a super huge amp. In fact, the comic pretty much directly implies this.

Well, in that case we should simply mention that Superman being able to fight the World Forger was mainly due to Mxyzptlk powering him up, not via regular sun-dips that he can use any time.

 

[AKM sama]

It's not an assumption, he literally does the latter.

What do you mean? Do you mean he does the former?

 

[The_Impress]

"Please refrain from making profiles for characters with less than 20 appearances across comic books (approximately 2 years' worth of appearances) in regards to the Prime Marvel Universe and mainline DC continuity (Golden Age + Pre-Crisis + Post-Crisis + Post-Flashpoint + Rebirth) comics, unless they play an extremely important part in the overall plot and scaling of the characters, or are frequently mentioned by other medias, as the constantly changing nature of their statistics make it hard for us to keep files updated as is.

This powerup leads to a battle which DEFINES basically every modern DC event. It's extremely relevant to the plot, that's what that means,

We also have written rules about primarily using consistency and explicit destruction or creation feats to scale from. In this case, since it turns out that Superman did not in fact destroy a multiverse, all he did was give the World Forger a black eye.

I don't mind if the thing is 10-C for all its worth, the key should be listed on the character' s file regardless.

 

[The_Impress]

What do you mean? Do you mean he does the former?

Latter, apparently. Stars were magic sci-fi stars with unique properties

 

[Antvasima]

I have no stake in Superman's tier, however, for what it's worth, even without reading the comic I think the feat is narratively sound. I cannot think of a single media portrayal of Superman that remotely airs on the side of caution as far as logic is concerned. I happen to think Superman's whole narrative is whatever the plot needs. I understand this isn't helpful for indexing and battle boarding, but Superman is "that" kind of character.

So I don't think "narrative" is the best way to argue against this particular feat.

Our standards for new comic characters requires (I forgot the exact number) 15ish issue appearances. Simply put, this amp probably hasn't gotten enough screen time to have enough feats to be properly indexed. So if a note has to be put on his profile is should recognize the feat as legitimate, however mention that amp wasn't shown and/or doesn't have enough appearances to meet the profile requirements.

We would have to clarify that the editor explained that Superman did not destroy a multiverse via raw power, and that he mainly gave the World Forger a black eye via his power-up by Mxyzptlk, similarly to how ascending to the Sphere of the Gods via Boom Tubes works. Meaning, that he cannot just boost himself to a 1-A or 1-B level whenever he feels like it simply by standing in the Sun for a while.

 

[AKM sama]

Latter, apparently. Stars were magic sci-fi stars with unique properties

Can I get more info on that? Scans or something that states that those stars release more energy than normal ones. Because this is the first I am hearing about it.

 

[Hasty12345]

We would have to clarify that the editor explained that Superman did not destroy a multiverse via raw power, and that he mainly gave the World Forger a black eye via his power-up by Mxyzptlk, similarly to how ascending to the Sphere of the Gods via Boom Tubes works. Meaning, that he cannot just boost himself to a 1-A or 1-B level whenever he feels like it simply by standing in the Sun for a while.

I completely agree, I think at the very least, the wording on the profile implies Superman can do this whenever he wants, which doesn't seem like the case.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Again, the problem is that it is a tier 1-A or 1-B feat, which completely breaks the narrative history for the character.



Again, the problem is that fighting the World Forger in the 6th Dimension would be many levels of infinity above 2-A, unless Mxyzptlk somehow managed to almost enchance the Justice League to the World Forger's level by sending them there.

Question, why would it be rated as 1-A to 1-B despite that obviously not being the case? Or are you just settling for this revised tier because you are (understandably) tired of going back and forth with 1-A/1-B supporters? I'm asking for clarification

 

[Antvasima]

This powerup leads to a battle which DEFINES basically every modern DC event. It's extremely relevant to the plot, that's what that means.

It isn't relevant to Superman's personal scaling, so I disagree.

I don't mind if the thing is 10-C for all its worth, the key should be listed on the character' s file regardless.

I very strongly disagree about that it should be listed in the current manner by scaling from a single confrontation. If we absolutely have to mention it, it should state that Mxyzptlk had previously elevated Superman to a 6th Dimension level, as that is the only way we can make this make any sense whatsoever. But I would much prefer a footnote instead.

Anyway, I have to go and eat now.