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Can't remember it too well myself, but should be fine.
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Our literal foot note says thisWhat do you mean? Can you link to a scan please?
SureAlso, should we add a "higher after charging himself inside of a star (Could almost fight the Kryptonian goddess Cythonna, who overpowered him in base)" rating to the Superman (Post-Crisis) profile page, while we are at it?
It seems fine.Also, should we add a "higher after charging himself inside of a star (Could almost fight the Kryptonian goddess Cythonna, who overpowered him in base)" rating to the Superman (Post-Crisis) profile page, while we are at it?
You're free to disagree but saying that it is "extremely ******* stupid and disingenuous" doesn't sit right with me. There is no objective proof here that says the stars that look like normal suns are qualitatively different. It's an assumption extrapolated on the basis of "oh well but the dimension is different so let's assume it". Especially when Superman can absorb this energy just like he does with normal sunlight supports my point. I'd need some kind of direct evidence for the claim that these stars are radiating 1-A solar energy somehow, I don't get how people can simply assume such an illogical thing without evidence.Saying this is an outlier or that the sun isn't special ignores all the context of the feat and is frankly, extremely ******* stupid and disingenuous.
As far as I can tell, the footnote is wrong in that case.Our literal foot note says this
But going by the greater verse context, this is a ridiculously extreme inconsistency.Meh, I don't see why further staff input is needed from people not already pinged yet, only real reason I can see for it is to overwhelm my side of the argument by having AKM's argument featured greater in contrast to mine, which as I already say is ignorant of greater verse context.
Well, as I said earlier, the compromise solution that I suggested earlier is better than nothing, but I am still uneasy with this feat, especially as it fulfills all 5 general outlier requirements as far as I can tell.More I think about it the less subjective it is, especially since AKM's argument does the cardinal sin of assuming a positive, that being the "if it looks like a duck" line of reasoning for a dimension explicitly having things such as different physics to ours and thus equating it, which is immensely disagreeable in regards to higher tier, where analogues are REQUIRED for anything to ever be indexable (unless it's at the risk of laughably alienating audience), and wiki has ALWAYS, across multiple definitions, allowed for these analogues.
Our fundamental wiki rules for superhero comic book scaling currently state that we should focus on using consistency and explicit power display feats to scale from, rather than one-time "everybody can fight everybody" matchups against opponents with infinitely higher feats than themselves and consistently comparable characters.So i retract my statement this is a votecount, and instead saying by accepted wiki standards my narrative is favoured more than AKM's, something that will require fundamental sitewide changes to remedy as being otherwise.
Thus this reverts to 1-on-1 debate.
@DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @QuasiYuri @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Confluctor @Hop_Hoppington-HoppenhiemerYou're free to disagree but saying that it is "extremely ******* stupid and disingenuous" doesn't sit right with me. There is no objective proof here that says the stars that look like normal suns are qualitatively different. It's an assumption extrapolated on the basis of "oh well but the dimension is different so let's assume it". Especially when Superman can absorb this energy just like he does with normal sunlight supports my point. I'd need some kind of direct evidence for the claim that these stars are radiating 1-A solar energy somehow, I don't get how people can simply assume such an illogical thing without evidence.
I can also say something like "people are making wonky unfounded assumptions to explain a mere inconsistency in an already inconsistent medium simply to stick a high rating on the profile", but I didn't say that despite feeling that "6th dimensional suns" seems sillier. Speak your opinion but respect other's as well, like I did.
@Antvasima you can ping more admins and thread mods to evaluate which alternative to go with. So far six have stated their views.
Well, Ant and I agree with option 1. Damage leaned towards agreeing with it as well but he is fine with option 2 if there is supporting evidence. The only supporting evidence here is "it's the sixth dimension so the stars may be different" which isn't evidence but assumption when these stars function the same way as normal ones. You, Confluctor and Elizhaa agree with option 2. In such a scenario, it's better to call out more people and get their opinions as well.Meh, I don't see why further staff input is needed from people not already pinged yet
You might think you're objectively more correct, and I would feel the same way about my take. We'd just go back to repeating the same arguments. Let others pitch in and decide which they feel should be more accurate here.More I think about it the less subjective it is
1. Okay, we are not talking about the dimension. We are talking about the stars. The stars radiate the same energy that Superman absorbs on Earth, and the stars look exactly the same. Just because the dimension is different doesn't justify 1-A stars. Especially when in your next point you say that Batman created them, this point becomes null and void. It's not about the dimension anymore, it becomes about what Batman created.
- Sixth dimension exists beyond the multiverse, it defys all forms of logic and reason. That's the whole purpose of this dimension is that impossible is actually possible.
- In addition, the batman gets a new machine which he uses to create dozens of suns or something, for the sole reason to empower Superman so he fight World Forger.
- And the whole story is about achieving the impossible and heroism shit.
Yeah, with an extremely powerful new device that the world forger have him. He was asking him to use it for something else, but he instead used it to empower Superman.Especially when in your next point you say that Batman created them, this point becomes null and void. It's not about the dimension anymore, it becomes about what Batman created.
Is there any proof he is creating normal stars?Is there any proof where Batman says he is creating "special" stars that will empower Superman differently?
No, but it's relevant here. These sort of things plays a heavy role in the outcome of this war. It is used as an amping thing throughout the entire 2/3 years long arc of Snyder on justice League.Most stories are about that. This is not a point.
The boost is inconsistent to some of you, sure. But not to the story or the lore/context of verse.The point here is the boost is inconsistent this time because the story demanded it.
Fine. Batman could create stars with prep time when he has a machine. We have established this much.Yeah, with an extremely powerful new device that the world forger have him. He was asking him to use it for something else, but he instead used it to empower Superman.
Proof is needed to detract from normal. The only reason we are saying that these stars aren't normal is because they gave Supes an inconsistent boost. That's literally the same point which is being argued as an inconsistency here. So you can't use "since these stars gave Supes an inconsistent boost, these stars must be special". To prove that these stars are special, you have to show what these stars are doing that is objectively not normal besides that. And while I haven't seen anything that proves these stars aren't normal, I can at least see these stars burn and radiate solar energy just like a regular sun.Is there any proof he is creating normal stars?
It's not.But going by the greater verse context, this is a ridiculously extreme inconsistency.
It's not about consistency when it's a onetime scenarioOur fundamental wiki rules for superhero comic book scaling currently state that we should focus on using consistency and explicit power display feats to scale from, rather than one-time "everybody can fight everybody" matchups against opponents with infinitely higher feats than themselves and consistently comparable characters.
If you want to argue World Forger isn't 1-A, or if Superman doesn't scale to him, clarify that, so I can focus on that argument.Given that the editor for the story clarified that Superman did not destroy the multiverse, he simply gave the World Forger a black eye,
Nahand that it was a brief power-up that lasted for a few pages and completely contradicts the gained power from previous sun-dip-charge power-ups, our quality control wiki standards actually strongly support that we should ignore it, as far as I am aware.
If you did it without a single bit of elaboration from me and did it regardless, close the thread right now and say bluntly that you just don't want the feat on the page, this is ridiculous.If AKM wants further input, I personally don't mind if he gets it.
That's not how objective arguments work.Well, Ant and I agree with option 1. Damage leaned towards agreeing with it as well but he is fine with option 2 if there is supporting evidence. The only supporting evidence here is "it's the sixth dimension so the stars may be different" which isn't evidence but assumption when these stars function the same way as normal ones. You, Confluctor and Elizhaa agree with option 2. In such a scenario, it's better to call out more people and get their opinions as well.
OBJECTIVITY CANNOT BE SUBJECTIVE, this is straight up wrong definitions.You might think you're objectively more correct, and I would feel the same way about my take. We'd just go back to repeating the same arguments. Let others pitch in and decide which they feel should be more accurate here.
Prove they're stars.1. Okay, we are not talking about the dimension. We are talking about the stars
And Batman has created 1-A shit. Your point?The stars radiate the same energy that Superman absorbs on Earth, and the stars look exactly the same. Just because the dimension is different doesn't justify 1-A stars. Especially when in your next point you say that Batman created them, this point becomes null and void. It's not about the dimension anymore, it becomes about what Batman created.
Again, prove they're stars in the exact same way as you understand them.2. Batman creating stars with his machine to empower Supes is alright. This doesn't tell us that they are 1-A stars. Batman could create normal stars to empower Supes because after all, stars do empower him. The point here is the boost is inconsistent this time because the story demanded it. Is there any proof where Batman says he is creating "special" stars that will empower Superman differently?
Normal in every sense of the word is, EXTRADIMENSIONAL ENTITIES aren't stars. Premise of your argument is flawed, aegue that, not other bullshit.Proof is needed to detract from normal.
If we are going by that logic, all those characters including Superman before sun dipping are 1-A.Hold on, the suns are comparable in size to the World Forger, right? That's literally proof they are 1-A in size. In fact, Superman is not 2D or non existent in comparison to these suns, implying he got a size increase which is common in DC. Its already accepted that World Forger is 1-A in size here
No that's just straight up ignoring context that they had to be amped to reached that degree.If we are going by that logic, all those characters including Superman before sun dipping are 1-A.
Yes, so its a size increase which makes senseIf we are going by that logic, all those characters including Superman before sun dipping are 1-A.
In that case the multiverse within the 6th Dimension would have to have been of an infinitely higher 1-A size, which doesn't make any sense, given that it was going to replace the regular 3rd dimension DC multiverse.I think its best to assume the JL were increased in size
No, that's what I am saying. According to that logic, they are all 1-A even before the sun dipping because they were amped. So these arguments are needless if we are going by that train of thought.No that's just straight up ignoring context that they had to be amped to reached that degree.
It's needless upon further context given, yeah, although without it the arguments you made against the previous train of thought were immensely flawed.No, that's what I am saying. According to that logic, they are all 1-A even before the sun dipping because they were amped. So these arguments are needless if we are going by that train of thought.
??????In that case the multiverse within the 6th Dimension would have to have been of an infinitely higher 1-A size, which doesn't make any sense, given that it was going to replace the regular 3rd dimension DC multiverse.
I have repeatedly explained that it does not fit at all with all other Superman feats, including the same types of power-ups.It's not.
That's the very definition of being inconsistent.It's not about consistency when it's a onetime scenario
As I have explained many times earlier, and I think you have said that you agree with in the past, superhero comic books are recurrently narratively built on the "everybody can fight everybody" principle. Stan Lee has even explicitly admitted this himself in a YouTube video linked to in our Marvel and DC rules page. That is why our rules make it clear that we should focus on power display feats and consistency in portrayals, rather than temporary match-up results.If you want to argue World Forger isn't 1-A, or if Superman doesn't scale to him, clarify that, so I can focus on that argument.
Well, that is what our rules say in any case, and they are necessary safeguards in order to not scale everybody to everybody.
I have already stated repeatedly that I find the feat extremely unreliable, just like you have stated the opposite. I am just as entitled to hold a view about this as you are.If you did it without a single bit of elaboration from me and did it regardless, close the thread right now and say bluntly that you just don't want the feat on the page, this is ridiculous.
The World Forger's multiverse was explicitly created to replace the regular DC multiverse with an almost identical copy. It wouldn't make any sense if the stars within it jumped from tier High 4-C to 1-A. The burden of proof is on your head regarding this, as extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.Again, prove they're stars in the exact same way as you understand them.
Agreed.No, that's what I am saying. According to that logic, they are all 1-A even before the sun dipping because they were amped. So these arguments are needless if we are going by that train of thought.
Okay. I definitely know the feeling, as we have talked about in private. Please take care of yourself.Anyways I'll return to this thread tomorrow, stress 'n' stuff. Don't take my silence for some concession here.
Why do you think that it was illusionary? For example, jail warden version of Lois Lane and the reformed villains within the new multiverse that freed the Justice League from a prison within it seemed perfectly sentient with a long history of experiences.??????
What? That was only one illusionary universe he had created.
Thank you for helping out.Also to correct an earlier point of mine, I just remembered batman likely didn't create it but moved the sun's in the universe for superman. But I will reread it soon to clairfy
Long story short, they are the souls of those humans he had stolen from alt realities and then created these versions of it. He talks about it to Bruce when he asks him 5o kill superman.Why do you think that it was illusionary? For example, jail warden version of Lois Lane and the reformed villains within the new multiverse that freed the Justice League from a prison within it seemed perfectly sentient with a long history of experiences.
Okay. Thank you for the reply. The multiverse itself was still portrayed as a physical construct though.Long story short, they are the souls of those humans he had stolen from alt realities and then created these versions of it. He talks about it to Bruce when he asks him 5o kill superman.