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Superman (Rebirth) 2-A removal
- Thread starter Confluctor
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Being knowledgeable doesn't mean reliability of decision making. Every fan of a series is knowledgeable on that series but it doesn't make their sense of judgment the best and free of bias. There are literally several dozens of fans of any big series knowledgeable on it who can FRA any rating they want by that logic.
That is not to say their points don't matter. They obviously do. And they can speak their points on the thread. But it needs to be evaluated by people who have been chosen to evaluate such things because of their rational decision making abilities. That's the whole point of these positions.
That is not to say their points don't matter. They obviously do. And they can speak their points on the thread. But it needs to be evaluated by people who have been chosen to evaluate such things because of their rational decision making abilities. That's the whole point of these positions.
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Their votes should still count in a thread they were called in to offer input to.
The 'false information' was publicly posted message logs with AKM, which they interpreted as such. Nothing really to investigate there, unless AKM's gonna say the messages were fake despite everything stated in them being consistent with the staff position you two have taken here. It's just a matter of them interpreting it as such.
The 'false information' was publicly posted message logs with AKM, which they interpreted as such. Nothing really to investigate there, unless AKM's gonna say the messages were fake despite everything stated in them being consistent with the staff position you two have taken here. It's just a matter of them interpreting it as such.
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Never mind. AKM just told me that it is due to a misunderstanding.
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Yes, of course, but the point about different intended focuses still applies.
Well, it seems to be a misunderstanding as far as I can tell.
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Just for the record, I do lean towards disagreeing with listing a highly situational two-step amp that showed up once in a medium as tumultuous as comics. I don't care if it ends up on the page though, so.
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I'll make the final post for consideration, feat isn't an outlier because it contradicts nothing, and key isn't irrelevant because the fight leads to three different events in modern day comics.
If the key is important to that degree for the verse's and character's perspective in the greater plotline of the verse, it is notable by most definitions, and should be listed.
I don't have the energy to continue after this, so if this reasoning gets rejected just assume I gave a concession. I'll unfollow this.
If the key is important to that degree for the verse's and character's perspective in the greater plotline of the verse, it is notable by most definitions, and should be listed.
I don't have the energy to continue after this, so if this reasoning gets rejected just assume I gave a concession. I'll unfollow this.
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I completely agree with this, i also want to say that not only is the feat have nothing that contradicts it, but even taking into account the "power of the sun should've give him that much energy" Pre-Crisis Superman is already 2-C, Possibly 2-A and he is a canonically only ever given power by one sun at a time since he didn't sundip or get stronger inside the sun like Post-Crisis incarnations of the character.
Superman with a Sundip has had a vast effect on his power, arguably to much higher tiers then we have on this wiki if you take that context, and Rebirth Superman is already operating on arguably a higher level than Post-Crisis Superman in base (he has stated to be strong enough to tear apart entire dimensions if he felt like) and this massive, and I do mean, MASSIVE sundip is far beyond anything he has ever done in any incarnation of the character. This wasn't a slight tap on World Forgers head from a non sundipped Superman, or Batman hitting Spectre OOC, this is as straightforward a massive powerup a character can get, and we've given characters the same tiers for similar feats before. I personally think it's fine as long as its very specifically mentioned to be a one time form in its own tier and not something the character can really ever even do on his own, then its fine. Its like Post Absorption Speed Force Wally West, not his base power in the slightest, but still Low 1-C possibly higher.
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- Thread starter
- #371
The biggest problem we have with comic book files is that when tackling "inconsistencies" we try to ignore everything higher the character has done. Superman never actually unleashes all of his power and if he said he has the power to tear apart the dimension, he most likely can. Now he said he can destroy the phantom zone with ease, and that would also not be an outlier as it goes hand in hand with their infinite crisis feat.
Phantom zone feat can't be used for low 1c cause of dimensional amp. But the idea that superman can bring down an entire dimension - phantom zone was referred to as infinite iirc once back in post crisis (was it last son era?) - isn't as inconsistent as we might assume - or would like to think.
Comic book characters grow stronger and stronger, as do every other fictional character. Which means their hax also grows stronger. And as I mentioned earlier a few times today, this superman has many reasons to be superior to his post crisis and New 52 self. 1, he is a fusion between two, and 2, Alec explicitly mentions that Superman is drawing far more power from the sun than he could before. And in the same story, he could hurt the Green Itself - even if accidentally. In addition, in JL 2018 25, he was able to absorb massive amounts of energies from the star just by entering it and coming out. Wayyy more than he had ever tried before. And obviously stuff about impossibility and stuff we went through already.
Like I said many times before, I honestly don't care what happens to this stat of his, but we need to account for this feat properly without calling it outliers simply because it's comics.
Phantom zone feat can't be used for low 1c cause of dimensional amp. But the idea that superman can bring down an entire dimension - phantom zone was referred to as infinite iirc once back in post crisis (was it last son era?) - isn't as inconsistent as we might assume - or would like to think.
Comic book characters grow stronger and stronger, as do every other fictional character. Which means their hax also grows stronger. And as I mentioned earlier a few times today, this superman has many reasons to be superior to his post crisis and New 52 self. 1, he is a fusion between two, and 2, Alec explicitly mentions that Superman is drawing far more power from the sun than he could before. And in the same story, he could hurt the Green Itself - even if accidentally. In addition, in JL 2018 25, he was able to absorb massive amounts of energies from the star just by entering it and coming out. Wayyy more than he had ever tried before. And obviously stuff about impossibility and stuff we went through already.
Like I said many times before, I honestly don't care what happens to this stat of his, but we need to account for this feat properly without calling it outliers simply because it's comics.
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As I mentioned earlier, I am mostly fine with if we list this as a two-step external amplification key. Definitely not as a claim that he can remotely reach a 1-A level any time he steps inside of a regular star though.
Also, you should know very well that superhero comic books are fundamentally built on the premise of everybody can fight everybody, so we should still usually go by consistency and explicit feats rather than temporary matchup results or completely unproven claims.
Also, you should know very well that superhero comic books are fundamentally built on the premise of everybody can fight everybody, so we should still usually go by consistency and explicit feats rather than temporary matchup results or completely unproven claims.
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Personally, I just think that if you believe that the stars are special because of the universe being special, that adds nothing to the argument. Because Supes wasn't stated to have become stronger due to the nature of the stars, he became stronger because of his Kryptonion Physiology. This means he at least has the potential to reach 1-A levels of power if given the opportunity and chance, which should stand for something. If nothing else, he should have "up to 1-A with Energy Absorption" since he has the potential to perform this feat, but under normal circumstances would be unable to reasonably find enough suns to achieve such an amp.
The above is accurate even when you remove the brainrot that are VS threads.
Edit: Ninja'd by Ant but I share about the same sentiment. 1-A is achievable but through means that wouldn't normally be possible.
The above is accurate even when you remove the brainrot that are VS threads.
Edit: Ninja'd by Ant but I share about the same sentiment. 1-A is achievable but through means that wouldn't normally be possible.
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- #374
I don't think anyone was arguing that he can reach to 1A from normal 3D stars? At least from the ones I read anyway
Of course. Lemme clarify my earlier statement..
What I mean by higher stuff is if there is an amp, we should call it amp and not an inconsistency or outlier. For example, anything above solar system done by Thor is considered outlier in other sites I have been in. The God blast is considered an outlier, but it is not because it's an "amp".
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I am definitely not going to accept giving regular Superman 1-A statistics, for reasons that I have elaborately gone through in many previous posts in this thread, and it seems like the other bureaucrats back me up regarding this.
If we accept the story premise, Mxyzptlk elevated Superman to a 6th-Dimensional nature/size, after which he powered up further by absorbing 6th-Dimensional power in a realm that explicitly worked in terms of pure reality-warping possibility.
Otherwise it completely breaks the the established greater narrative for the character, and we would have to give Thor Low 1-A statistics for harming Mikaboshi as well, just to name one example among many.
That is all. I am willing to compromise as we agreed, but not to let us get completely unreliable and ridiculous in this regard.
If we accept the story premise, Mxyzptlk elevated Superman to a 6th-Dimensional nature/size, after which he powered up further by absorbing 6th-Dimensional power in a realm that explicitly worked in terms of pure reality-warping possibility.
Otherwise it completely breaks the the established greater narrative for the character, and we would have to give Thor Low 1-A statistics for harming Mikaboshi as well, just to name one example among many.
That is all. I am willing to compromise as we agreed, but not to let us get completely unreliable and ridiculous in this regard.
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Sir Ovens seems to do so.
Explicit feats are fine. Unproven claims and inconsistently fighting characters with infinitely greater feats is not, as I mentioned previously.
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Wouldn't this scan shatter the wild assumption of "the suns were built different"
They are called "real" suns by the narrator. The interpretation of "real" would be what we are used to, i.e. similar to the sun in our solar system. It also says that he can see the nuclear fusion at the core, hydrogen into helium, which solidifies that the sun is following normal physics not some weird magical 1-A property. At no point is he surprised by this sun's supposedly distinct "1-A" qualities and no mention of anything like that is made. So this whole argument of "let's assume the sun is built different" is objectively incorrect now.
Consider me vehemently in favor of treating this amp as an inconsistency. Until new info is presented.
I think AKM dropping this scan decisively threw the argument in his favor, going to go with the idea that the 1-A Superman is an outlier. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Superman grow stronger thanks to the amount of time he's in the star- not the number of sun-dips from star to star? If this is correct, then wouldn't it be better to compare the time he's actually in the stars rather than the number of stars he went into?
I think though, the people in favor of the tier 1/2 stat should try re-organizing for a bit, it seems that everyone has slightly or very different reasons for the tier, and it means that a potentially valid reason could be lost in the turmoil.
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Not necessarily. Sometimes he can charge himself just in a few seconds, other times takes a bit of time - but that was 20 years ago. But in this comic, the writer goes out of his way to say that even just going through one star returned almost all of his power to his instantly. This is obviously in line with what Alec was talking about in superman annual 1 and then later their fusion which enhanced their Absorption hax as well as their overall power.
On top of that, Alec also mentioned that when superman goes to a different universe with a different vibrational frequency, his Absorption starts acting crazy and the rate goes up by an insane amount. The whole annual is about how superman was drawing too much power from the sun and was causing environmental issues around the world, potentially destroying the world not long after.
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Well, in either case, there currently seems to be roughly even staff support for either considering the feat as an outlier or as a very specific externally induced power-up, due to first being charged by Mxyzptlk for several years, and then absorbing and using the World Forger's own 6th Dimension energies against him when already in an elevated state. Superman being able to charge up to 1-A whenever he feels like is not on the table anymore.
It would help if somebody writes a tally of everybody here who support what though.
It would help if somebody writes a tally of everybody here who support what though.
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
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Man I'll be honest I went into this thinking AKM's side sounded objectively insane but I'm lost now
There's just so much damn context I genuinely don't have
Why is the sixth dimension 1-A, why are we assuming Batman is pulling stars, how or why did that happen, what are the exact mechanics of Superman getting buffed from a star, why does the word "real" matter (this one I just find a bizarre point from AKM, hence my original inclination to vote against 'im), so on and so forth
I just genuinely know so little about this and me asking in the background has been fruitless. My official answer is- I came, I saw, I don't know. That is all.
There's just so much damn context I genuinely don't have
Why is the sixth dimension 1-A, why are we assuming Batman is pulling stars, how or why did that happen, what are the exact mechanics of Superman getting buffed from a star, why does the word "real" matter (this one I just find a bizarre point from AKM, hence my original inclination to vote against 'im), so on and so forth
I just genuinely know so little about this and me asking in the background has been fruitless. My official answer is- I came, I saw, I don't know. That is all.
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It transcends the entirety of DC multiverse, which is a 1A structure. Currently, anyway.
The machine that World Forger gave him. He wanted batman to use it and kill superman with it, but instead, he makes the sun comes closer to Superman. I will reread that in a bit and send scans.
Can you elaborate more on what you mean please?
Mr. Bambu
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Sure. Your post, directly before replying to me, is discussing one particular set of instances of Superman's star energy absorption shenanigans. However, based on how you phrase it, it seems to imply that this is but one showing, particularly useful for this debate, but perhaps not the most overall consistent. Given a lot of the conversation seems to revolve around how this would look on the profile to begin with, I feel this is a fairly big deal.
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Yes, this instance is a one-time thing, which happened in the Sixth Dimension - 1-A structure. We are basically discussing whether it's an outlier or not. At least I am. In any case, this new Superman hasn't tried absorbing the sun as his post-crisis self did 20 years ago, and back then, he had trouble with one star. However, since then, Superman's powers have grown - including absorption, so that's why I am arguing it's not an outlier. Since he absorbs the energies of countless stars in a 1-A realm, so him one-shotting World Forger is far from an outlier.
The only reason Ant is saying is inconsistent is because 20 years ago or so, they set a limit, however, Superman has had many power limits and over time, he overcame those limits and grew stronger. So, I don't see how this instance, where he can absorb more power than usual, is inconsistent
The only reason Ant is saying is inconsistent is because 20 years ago or so, they set a limit, however, Superman has had many power limits and over time, he overcame those limits and grew stronger. So, I don't see how this instance, where he can absorb more power than usual, is inconsistent
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As I repeatedly explained much more elaborately, this is either an extreme outlier with nonsensical context or a very specific set of circumstances of first being powered up for years by Mxyzptlk and then power from the 6th Dimension. None of his other explicit feats throughout his entire history are even beyond 4-B, including by repeatedly absorbing power to his limit, and the Post-Rebirth version has not otherwise been shown as more powerful than the peak Post-Crisis version as far as I recall. In fact, when the Post-Crisis version returned a few years ago during the Post-Flashpoint era, he was explicitly stated to be more powerful as far as I recall.
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I don't know which argument to reply to. Everybody is running with their own idea. I want to ask
Which of the following arguments is being argued as the most significant one:
1. Superman can absorb normal sunlight from hundreds of suns for a few minutes and reach 1-A on his own
2. Superman can absorb 1-A sunlight from 1-A suns and reach 1-A, after getting amped by Mxy
3. Superman is 1-A in sixth dimension because he is comparable in size to 1-A suns
Can we just settle on one instead of jumping around.
Which of the following arguments is being argued as the most significant one:
1. Superman can absorb normal sunlight from hundreds of suns for a few minutes and reach 1-A on his own
2. Superman can absorb 1-A sunlight from 1-A suns and reach 1-A, after getting amped by Mxy
3. Superman is 1-A in sixth dimension because he is comparable in size to 1-A suns
Can we just settle on one instead of jumping around.
It was said that sixth dimension does not follow science and logic, so the stars in it are built different and are 1-A. The scan I posted was to clarify that the stars at least function the same way as normal stars, they follow normal physics, where hydrogen is turned to helium, where nuclear fusion happens, etc.
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Is anyone gonna summarize anything here
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Both sides previously agreed about using option 2, if the argument that it is a massive illogical outlier to suddenly jump a character, who is otherwise at best 4-B, to 1-A via a single everybody can fight everybody pattern confrontation, was rejected. However, now suddenly Sir Ovens seems to want to consider this a perfectly normal demonstration of power from Superman, meaning option 1. I may have misunderstood though.
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I believe only Ovens was arguing that?
Comprehension and likely size amp, yes.
Yes.
Since it's obviously going to get removed and deemed an outlier, count me out of here. whenever you guys come to conclusion, lmk so I can apply the changes.
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Seems to me everyone agrees that:
1) the circumstances should be changed if it stays
2) should be removed entirely
1) the circumstances should be changed if it stays
2) should be removed entirely
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Basically, here are some gysts of the main points based on information gathered. The stars do have scientific properties of our yellow sun such as the same color and atomic structure, and thus looks like normal stars to the eyes of Superman. However, the "6th dimension" as a whole is a realm where everyone and everything becomes 1-A sized when they enter it. Hence why Batman is also able to make use of 1-A technology capable of moving 1-A stars. Like, imagine if someone decided to put Popeye in the same realm, and he found access to 1-A spinach that gave him the strength to beat World Forger despite the atomic structure appearing that of normal spinach. This would pretty much be the same context here. It's an AP feat for the nature of the 6th dimension and not for anyone who entered it in particular. Though it would most definitely be a range feat for Mister Mxyzptlk since he's the one who transports people to said realm.
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If 1-A realms are inaccessible from below how did Mister Mxyztplk amp Superman to be able to enter it? Kinda contradicts it being 1-A Lmao
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Well, Mxyzptlk had to charge Superman for years in order to achieve this feat, and is currently at least High 1-C himself, whereas the 6th Dimension will probably eventually be downgraded to 1-B, so I could buy that going by comic book logic "there isn't an overwhelmingly staggering difference, so just go along with it, okay?"
Medeus also made some good points above.
Medeus also made some good points above.
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The nature of the 6th dimension being 1-A is something that should be saved for another thread, but that still doesn't change the point is that whatever tier it lands, it's still the realm that amps everyone who enters it that's otherwise a feat for Mxy's amplification ability/ability to transport others.
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Wasn't Mxyzptlk's influence on Superman only to make sure he didn't go insane in the higher realm? Where did we get an AP boost from?
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Justice League (2018) #19
Perhaps insanity isn't the right word. Wonder Woman said the 6th Dimension was beyond their comprehension and that they wouldn't survive there. Mxy said he infused Superman with 5D energy that "could" protect him there.
I'm not sure if that was a lie since Mxy led Superman alone to the dead galaxy.
Alph (disguised as Superman) says he made an energy portal to the 6th dimension that can handle their signatures.
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Not interested. Please involve Hop less in these types of threads.
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