Superman (Rebirth) 2-A removal

[The_Impress]

Current staff which agrees is Confluctor, Armorchompy, Amelia and Tllmbrg, all pre-existing verse supporters.

Didn't know we're counting regular users in a staff thread just because they barged in, I can get some people with that too if you wish.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, MarvelFanatic is the only one that I included, and he is a knowledgeable member about Marvel and DC Comics. I think that a few other regular members agreed with me and AKM as well, but I haven't kept track very well.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Well, MarvelFanatic is the only one that I included, and he is a knowledgeable member about Marvel and DC Comics. I think that a few other regular members agreed with me and AKM as well, but I haven't kept track very well.

Okay name drop them
Although again, a lot of blue names agreed with the rating

 

[The_Impress]

Well, MarvelFanatic is the only one that I included, and he is a knowledgeable member about Marvel and DC Comics. I think that a few other regular members agreed with me and AKM as well, but I haven't kept track very well.

K so I'll add Tracer and King to my count as well, both are also exceptionally reliable

 

[Antvasima]

Okay name drop them
Although again, a lot of blue names agreed with the rating

There are over 300 posts to read through in order to get a tally. I do not have the time for that, but if somebody is willing to properly investigate and list the supporters for each side in an honest manner, that would obviously be very appreciated.

 

[AKM sama]

I suggested a two-step power-up as a solution, since I am tired of arguing and being met with hostility

Irrespective of which option is accurate, this is a harmful attitude to have. Any big verse with lots of fans can bulldoze their way if they just keep making more noise and attacking others for their opinions. If someone is being overly hostile, ban them from the thread or take appropriate action. If people keep arguing repeatedly, call for more input. I am not saying this in the context of this thread, just in general, because I feel a lot of people give up exactly because of that.

Also, if we are doing votes, we should wait for more admins and thread mods. Those are the people who have been selected to evaluate threads and give reasonable input in such situations. If we are doing a popularity poll (which I really think is not needed at this point), it should be restricted to only bureaucrats, admins and thread mods otherwise there will be no point of it.

 

[Antvasima]

K so I'll add Tracer and King to my count as well, both are also exceptionally reliable

Okay. Which "King" are you referring to?

 

[Antvasima]

Irrespective of which option is accurate, this is a harmful attitude to have. Any big verse with lots of fans can bulldoze their way if they just keep making more noise and attacking others for their opinions. If someone is being overly hostile, ban them from the thread or take appropriate action. If people keep arguing repeatedly, call for more input. I am not saying this in the context of this thread, just in general, because I feel a lot of people give up exactly because of that.

True enough, but I can't go around thread-banning otherwise helpful prominent staff members because they have a bad day. Also, my behaviour was not initially ideal in this thread either, due to being overworked and stressed out.

Also, if we are doing votes, we should wait for more admins and thread mods. Those are the people who have been selected to evaluate threads and give reasonable input in such situations. If we are doing a popularity poll (which I really think is not needed at this point), it should be restricted to only bureaucrats, admins and thread mods.

Yes, they are admittedly the only ones with the authority to evaluate discussion threads.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Honestly besides the case of the feat not being 2-A, the point of it being a thing confounds me.
Why can’t it just be “Superman took a fuckton of sun dips and amped himself to X levels because fiction”
Why does there always have to be some extra justification because comics?

 

[The_Impress]

Also, if we are doing votes, we should wait for more admins and thread mods. Those are the people who have been selected to evaluate threads and give reasonable input in such situations. If we are doing a popularity poll (which I really think is not needed at this point), it should be restricted to only bureaucrats, admins and thread mods otherwise there will be no point of it.

And Medeus. I think he also agrees with it.

...do you think just because I am not feeling well you can pull off shit like this, or do you presume me to be this ******* dumb?

Unless you managed to somehow word shit in the worst way possible, knowing you well unlikely, this is blatantly manipulative, as soon as the vote favours me suddenly it's irrelevant to bring up.

 

[Antvasima]

Please calm down. AKM is not trying to take advantage of you not feeling well, and it is quite likely that we will end up with the compromise solution.

I am recurrently not feeling well either for that matter. I am mentally unstable, and formerly batshit psychotic after all.

I can send you some calming Spotify meditation music playlists that I use to get less stressed if you wish.

 

[AKM sama]

...do you think just because I am not feeling well you can pull off shit like this, or do you presume me to be this ******* dumb?

Unless you managed to somehow word shit in the worst way possible, knowing you well unlikely, this is blatantly manipulative, as soon as the vote favours me suddenly it's irrelevant to bring up.

Like what? Wdym? Go back to my very first message where I suggested we need to call more admins and thread mods to give their input and the six people I mentioned were them only.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Hello, yes. I will throw in my two cents.

Take note I don't read a lot of comics but I have seen the pages the feat takes place in and know the context.

That being said, I think discounting the feat as inconsistent is dumb. Are comics inconsistent? Yeah, most of the time. But let's compare an actually inconsistent feat with this.

Batman punching Spectre is inconsistent because he only does it once and never again. He also has a dozen more feats of fighting street level villains than anyone even close to Spectre's level of power.

Now for Supes' feat. He did it after sundipping a considerable number of times. He's clearly amped up by the energy he absorbed and makes it clear in his dialogue.

See the difference between both feats is that Supes actually gets stronger and that is made abundantly clear to us, the audience. As such, by our very own standards, a tier jump is not out of the ordinary.

As for the other arguments that dipping in a few suns for at most a couple of minutes isn't enough energy to reach 1-A, that's right. However, the feat of punching World Forger should take precedence over attempting to calculate the proportional strength gained from spending time in the sun. Why? Because the former feat only happened once and is by definition impossible to be inconsistent because there's literally no other feat to compare consistency to. On the other hand, Supes has had many sun dips in the past, and I sincerely doubt he has consistently shown a proportionate boost in power to how long he has spent in a sun.

But then again, this dipping event was specifically stated to be special since the scan blatantly states he moved faster than he ever did before and at speeds beyond physics. I'm honestly surprised there is a debate here when it's spelt out so obviously for us.

In conclusion, Supes with multiple sun dips should be 1-A. It is inconsistent to absolutely nothing.

 

[The_Impress]

If the votecount truly isn't relevant this thread should be AKM trying to address me and me addressing him back, further non-supporter staff input would just straight up not be necessary unless you're undermining my capabilities as a staff member and a supporter, which if that is the case you can demote me right now since you clearly don't trust me to do basic staff duties, or more maliciously trying to overpower the supporter-base altogether and attempting to intimidate them by having clueless admins either fed warped context by him, or completely clueless.

If not, votecount matters, AKM shouldn't be actively promoting his ideas across the thread after his initial points, and it should just genuinely be left to admins to pick between the two options, except no, he did it, even when I said "hey I'll be out so won't be able to track the thread", this is the worst, most malicious way to go about things.

 

[AKM sama]

We were doing just that. But after a point, back and forth doesn't solve anything. It's clear we are not budging from our views. Which is why I suggested calling for more input from the start. You were the one who was insistent in dragging this out.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM is not being malicious. He is just trying to do his job as well as he is able.

And we are definitely not going to demote you. You have been of enormous help to make this wiki more reliable.

Anyway, it seems like the consensus is mostly that we should go with the compromise solution, so I think that we can probably apply that soon.

 

[The_Impress]

We were doing just that. But after a point, back and forth doesn't solve anything. It's clear we are not budging from our views. Which is why I suggested calling for more input from the start. You were the one who was insistent in dragging this out.

You did it off of a Discord convo, which as I repeat on further thought I don't believe it's a subjective distinction in the slightest, in the scenario of a stonewall you should call VERSE supporters, or even verse staff members, especially when the crux of my argument is that context of the feat with respect to greater verse is important, and DC has many reliable supporters who ARE staff.

There is no reason to call non-supporters except to favour the side which as I have clarified, is lacking context.

 

[Antvasima]

But I already did call all of the most knowledgeable members that I know of near the beginning of this thread.

Anyway, there is no need to cause hurt feelings over this issue. As long as it is clarified that Superman cannot reach a 1-A level whenever he feels like, and there were specific circumstances at play, I have no real stake in this, even though I didn't think that the story made much sense.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

AKM is now using out of context jokes in a Discord conversation to say that we're manipulating this thread.

@Antvasima How can you stilll say AKM is not acting in bad faith? This is so blatantly horseshit.

 

[Antvasima]

I have talked with AKM in private, and he simply wants us to strictly follow our standard procedure. Meaning, all votes should be listed in a tally, but the staff with official evaluation rights should be listed separately from the other members, in order to not set a bad precedent. I think that we are outvoted in either way though, so it doesn't really matter for the outcome. The compromise solution will be applied as far as I am aware.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean, he doesn't even have a stake in this, as he isn't particularly interested in DC Comics. As I said, he is just trying to do his job as well as he is able.

 

[AKM sama]

AKM is now using out of context jokes in a Discord conversation to say that we're manipulating this thread.

@Antvasima How can you stilll say AKM is not acting in bad faith? This is so blatantly horseshit.

Okay, let me stop you right there. That is a huge accusation. Show me proof of where I said you are manipulating people. Wow, just wow.

 

[Antvasima]

Amelia, I do not know anything about Discord jokes, but just like you are misinterpreting AKM to act in bad faith, he may very well mistake you to do the same thing, when all of this is really just a case of people having different viewpoints.

 

[Antvasima]

But we have rules in place against very bad off-wiki behaviour, and have banned several such members. I will be the first to admit that my common sense and social skills are recurrently very bad, and that serious mistakes have been made both by myself and others, but we are continuously making advances to turn things better.

I do not remember the past issues that you are referring to though, and AKM seems confused regarding what you are talking about regarding Discord jokes as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

In conclusion, Supes with multiple sun dips should be 1-A. It is inconsistent to absolutely nothing.

Yeah that's sort of the idea I was going with. An outlier is like, Superman one shotting Barbatos, not Superman with a heavy amp punching a guy.

So for the topic of the thread the only reason to get rid of it is that its just a one time amp rather than an outlier.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Hello, yes. I will throw in my two cents.

Take note I don't read a lot of comics but I have seen the pages the feat takes place in and know the context.

That being said, I think discounting the feat as inconsistent is dumb. Are comics inconsistent? Yeah, most of the time. But let's compare an actually inconsistent feat with this.

Batman punching Spectre is inconsistent because he only does it once and never again. He also has a dozen more feats of fighting street level villains than anyone even close to Spectre's level of power.

Now for Supes' feat. He did it after sundipping a considerable number of times. He's clearly amped up by the energy he absorbed and makes it clear in his dialogue.

See the difference between both feats is that Supes actually gets stronger and that is made abundantly clear to us, the audience. As such, by our very own standards, a tier jump is not out of the ordinary.

As for the other arguments that dipping in a few suns for at most a couple of minutes isn't enough energy to reach 1-A, that's right. However, the feat of punching World Forger should take precedence over attempting to calculate the proportional strength gained from spending time in the sun. Why? Because the former feat only happened once and is by definition impossible to be inconsistent because there's literally no other feat to compare consistency to. On the other hand, Supes has had many sun dips in the past, and I sincerely doubt he has consistently shown a proportionate boost in power to how long he has spent in a sun.

But then again, this dipping event was specifically stated to be special since the scan blatantly states he moved faster than he ever did before and at speeds beyond physics. I'm honestly surprised there is a debate here when it's spelt out so obviously for us.

In conclusion, Supes with multiple sun dips should be 1-A. It is inconsistent to absolutely nothing.

Supes would only be 1-A in this specific circumstance. He shouldn’t be 1-A from sun dipping in any random star, correct?

 

[Antvasima]

Oh and apparently AKM iis saying my opinion doesn't matter. Cool. I guess sending the last two years trying to fix DC pages here doesnt mean I know shit about the verse anymore. ******* amazing.

Your opinion definitely matters. You just do not have official staff evaluation rights. That is all.

Also, your work to help out is extremely appreciated.

 

[Antvasima]

Supes would only be 1-A in this specific circumstance. He shouldn’t be 1-A from sun dipping in any random star, correct?

That is what I am going for as well, yes. It wouldn't fit with the rest of the narrative otherwise.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Your opinion definitely matters. You just do not have official staff evaluation rights. That is all.

Is staff
Doesn't have staff eval rights

What

 

[AKM sama]

I am not having this. Amelia comes out and accuses me of shit I have never done without posting any evidence and continues to derail the thread further. I have thread banned her for the time being.

 

[Antvasima]

What

That is the basic definition of our staff positions. Calc group members have exclusive evaluation rights for calculations. Thread moderators have evaluation rights for discussions. Content moderators can edit all pages and help out with cleanup work and applying wiki revisions. Administrators have combined thread moderator and content moderator rights and can ban people. Bureaucrats have admin rights and are responsible for staff promotions and the overall organisation of the wiki, especially regarding wiki policies. I think that all of this is described in the wiki pages for each group.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not having this. Amelia comes out and accuses me of shit I have never done without posting any evidence and continues to derail the thread further. I have thread banned her for the time being.

I understand your frustration, but Amelia is evidently not feeling well at all, and has seemingly been misinformed about what is happening by somebody. I would much prefer if we try our best to calm down the situation.

 

[Antvasima]

What

See here:

Calculation Group

The VS Battles wiki is a site which aims to index the statistics and abilities of various characters across different fictional franchises. Quite often these statistics are measured via calculations of feats performed by characters. The Calculation Group is a collection of members well-versed in...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Thread Moderators

Tens of thousands of discussion threads have accumulated in the wiki over the years. This means that they require knowledgeable members who help out with evaluating and keeping them polite and respectful. This is the job of the Thread Moderators. These members are selected due to a combination...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Content Moderators

VS Battles wiki currently has 35,570 pages. However, quite often these articles contain improper source formatting, incorrect dead-end links, or even of sub-standard quality. Content Moderators help clean up such articles and improve the quality of articles on pages. In effect, the Content...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Administrators

The VS Battles wiki currently contains 35,631 pages. Managing the accuracy of statistics and profiles of such an enormous catalogue requires a great deal of regulation, oversight, and maintenance. Administrators are members who handle administrative work for VS Battles wiki, in effect, the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[AKM sama]

If she has been misinformed, then she should be doing the reasonable thing and take it up in private first rather than cause drama on a thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so, but as I said, she evidently does not feel well at all right now, or she wouldn't react like this. Somebody has apparently sent her misleading information in private.

I sent her a PM with relaxing Spotify meditation music playlists.

 

[Promestein]

I sent her a PM with relaxing Spotify meditation music playlists.

That is tremendously condescending and you shouldn't do it, just leave her alone, Christ. It's not a matter of her not feeling well or misinterpreting things, it's a matter of her disagreeing with things that were explicitly stated. Which is that she doesn't have official staff evaluation rights; they take issue with this, because now it means their input doesn't really seem to matter in a thread where people are just counting staff assent.

 

[Antvasima]

It isn't condescending. I use those playlists all the time. I am just trying to be helpful.

Anyway, as our wiki pages state from the start, we all have specialisations/focus in different areas. I am not authorised to evaluate calculations, for example. I don't understand the problem.

 

[Promestein]

So someone knowledgeable on a verse can't evaluate a thread about the verse?

 

[Antvasima]

Of course they can. Our policies just say that the staff with discussion evaluation rights have more of a say in the final conclusions.

 

[Promestein]

I don't see why staff less familiar with the verse should overrule staff more familiar with the verse, regardless of evaluation rights. You get staff off of having your opinion and work trusted and respected, so we should afford all staff similar rights on matters like these, especially when they know what they're talking about.