Super Saiyan Blue Multiplier

[AKM sama]

Currently, there is no SSB multiplier that is accepted. I wanted to discuss the reasons for it and some arguments that can be used to suggest a multiplier, for clarity's sake. Note that we currently accept the SSJ1 multiplier.

The main argument for SSB to have the same multiplier as SSJ1 stems from these two statements:




Here, both Goku and Vegeta refer to SSB as a "super saiyan level/version" of SSG. Similar statements have been made in the promotional pamphlets from back in the day, stating that SSGSS happens when SSG transforms into a Super Saiyan.

---

The possible counterargument that could be brought up is that the SSB transformation has many differences than the SSJ transformation. For example, SSB is attained through a special type of training where they learn to stop the leakage of ki from their bodies, while SSJ is attained through a catalyst (rage, etc.) that triggers the S-cells. SSB is a calmer form with ki control that lets the user use Kaioken in conjunction, while SSJ doesn't concern itself with ki control and can't be used with Kaioken, etc.

An argument can be made that both transformations have some fundamental differences which could also mean that their multipliers don't necessarily have to be the same.


This is important an important topic that can affect the current DBS speed ratings gained by multipliers. So please keep it civil.

Let's discuss!
@DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Everything12 @Planck69 @DemonGodMitchAubin @KingTempest

 

[Orange]

Well personally, the show blatantly states that ssb is : ssg + ssj.
In order to attain super saiyan blue you need toeet some requirements: first transform to a god saiyan, and then use the godly ki in that state to restore it in your base form, making you a god without turning a super saiyan. But the super saiyan god is still a transformation that you can access. After you transform into a super saiyan god and master the form till you can transform into it without the need to help of five super saiyan, that's done by stopping the leakage of god ki.
Once you transform into a super saiyan god, you transform into a super saiyan on top of it. Giving you the calm and ki control, the godly ki while also increasing all of your states.
Basically super saiyan blue is just super saiyan god, with super saiyan on top of it.
So you take the multiplier or to ne exacts the benefits of a super saiyan god, then you add the benefits of a normal super saiyan.
Thus it gives the name "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan "
Which is the combination of two forms in order to create a stronger one.
So super saiyan god multiplier and it's other benefits + the multiplier of a super saiyan.
It would give us : whatever the multiplier of super saiyan god + 50x (which is the multiplier of a super saiyan, it's accepted in the wiki)
Thus making a super saiyan god super saiyan 50x stronger than a super saiyan god.
We can also evolve it to royal super saiyan blue, and potentially stack super saiyan 2 or super saiyan 3.
So In a nutshell it's the combination of ssg + ssj = M (multiplier) of ssg + M of ssj = Ssg × 50.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

I've always supported SSJB being SSJG x 50 so I think my opinion here is obvious lol

 

[Bernkastelll]

I always supported it to be like SSJG x 50 due Super Saiyan, so

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Agree for the reasons I already mentioned to AKM Sama in the last thread

 

[DragonLord]

Flat Multipliers for the God Forms always seemed weird to me in the story, I think most people know much of an insane multiplier you’d need to have Kefla surpass SSBx20 considering SSG was already stronger then a theoretical SSJ3 Vegito back in BOG

but with lack of better options and it probably being the intent, then I guess I agree

 

[RisingIons]

SSJ is x50 base form.
SSB = Base form * SSG * SSJ

I feel its pretty straightforward. At the same time, there's several scaling that may or may not support it:

Example, Ikari Broly could match SSB Goku, SSJ Broly mashed both SSB Goku and Vegeta, Frieza could hold out for an hour yet got one-shotted by GoD Toppo who was an SSBE level opponent, who's around SSB KKx20 in power.

SSB Goku could fight SSJ Kefla, then with kaioken he was hitting her so hard her arms went numb from blocking. Which means he should at some degree be stronger than base Kefla, since Vados said potara fusion is "more than the sum of their parts and their power increases tens of times"

 

[Bernkastelll]

At the same time, there's several scaling issues that don't support this multiplier.

db itself has scaling issues, like vegeta ssgod fighting against broly and losing but base goku fighting against him

 

[Orange]

SSJ is x50 base form.
SSB = Base form * SSG * SSJ

I feel its pretty straightforward. At the same time, there's several scaling issues that don't support this multiplier.

Can you give us some examples please?

 

[Hasty12345]

db itself has scaling issues, like vegeta ssgod fighting against broly and losing but base goku fighting against him

wouldn't that just mean Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Vegeta in base?

 

[Bernkastelll]

wouldn't that just mean Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Vegeta in base?

this would make base goku >>>> super saiyan god vegeta, despite in the start of the movie goku and vegeta were training against each other as equals

 

[Planck69]

Using the multiplier seems straightforward to me.

 

[Orange]

wouldn't that just mean Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Vegeta in base?

Or or....
Base goku didn't fight as nearly as good as we thought and still got stomped in ssg harder than vegeta.
I always took the fight as just a way for the animations to show the saiyans transformations and cool effects tbh.

 

[Hasty12345]

this would make base goku >>>> super saiyan god vegeta, despite in the start of the movie goku and vegeta were training against each other as equals

feats would simply contradict them being equals, and besides, Goku has held back against Vegeta to portray himself as his equal before in Buu arc didn't he? So it's in-character

 

[Bernkastelll]

feats would simply contradict them being equals,

it would have 2 different feats, the one as being equal and the one as being stronger than super saiyan god vegeta

Goku has held back against Vegeta to portray himself as his equal before in Buu arc didn't he? So it's in-character

goku held back in his transformation, cuz he didnt used super saiyan 3 despite having it, they were fighting as equal as super saiyan 2 goku vs majin vegeta

 

[Hasty12345]

it would have 2 different feats, the one as being equal and the one as being stronger than super saiyan god vegeta

goku held back in his transformation, cuz he didnt used super saiyan 3 despite having it, they were fighting as equal as super saiyan 2 goku vs majin vegeta

well clearly there are multiplier inconsistencies here that don't work, so I disagree with any kind of static multipliers for god ki forms.

 

[Bernkastelll]

well clearly there are multiplier inconsistencies here that don't work, so I disagree with any kind of static multipliers for god ki forms.

so as i said, its a power scaling problem in the verse itself

 

[Hasty12345]

so as i said, its a power scaling problem in the verse itself

you kind of just argued SSG has a negative impact on on Vegeta, so I don't see hoe any kind of multiplier can be assigned.

 

[Bernkastelll]

you kind of just argued SSG has a negative impact on on Vegeta

I argued that the verse has scaling issues, which is true

 

[Orange]

Didn't goku got stomped harder in ssg than he got in base? I mean the movie scaling un that fight is kinda ehhh. I'll take it with grain of salt or just an outlier for goku

 

[Kin201]

db itself has scaling issues, like vegeta ssgod fighting against broly and losing but base goku fighting against him

This is PIS.

 

[Hasty12345]

I argued that the verse has scaling issues, which is true

and those issues would only get worse by assigning static multipliers to SSG forms, as clearly the scaling is too inconsistent for multipliers to work.

 

[Bernkastelll]

This is PIS.

Yes, I know, my point about ''multipliers have problems'' actually is only PIS, and I showed in the example

 

[Orange]

I mean it's just PIS, Outlier or the writers intent was just to show goku using the transformations for fanservice

 

[Bernkastelll]

I mean it's just PIS, Outlier or the writers intent was just to show goku using the transformations for fanservice

Yeh, this

 

[Orange]

Besides the broly fight which is has two outliers, base goku vs broly and frieza vs broly.
What other contradictions

 

[Hasty12345]

I think the easiest explanation is Goku is just stronger than Vegeta....

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Well as far as differences between SSJ1 and SSB is concerned, remember that Super Saiyan Grade 4 or Perfect Super Saiyan as Gohan and Goku learned in RoSaT are more or less same in principle. Even the Perfect Super Saiyan has more focus on ki and stamina control along with more naturally easy transformation rather than Rage induced.

And if you still want to say they are different and SSB is ""csuperior""", remeber SSJG4 even superior than Grade 3 with no speed disadvantages if you want to go by some guides.

So either way you slice it, boost provided by SSJ over base and SSB over SSG is similar.

 

[Orange]

I think the easiest explanation is Goku is just stronger than Vegeta....

Or that it's an outlier , a massive one.
Did actually goku deal any damage or anything notable besides running away?

 

[Hasty12345]

Or that it's an outlier , a massive one.

what happens afterwards that would suggest it's an outlier?

 

[Bernkastelll]

what happens afterwards that would suggest it's an outlier?

frieza not being one shotted after 1 hour against broly, the same broly that stomped super saiyan blue and vegeta

 

[Orange]

what happens afterwards that would suggest it's an outlier?

Goku standing to broly in base, which would mean that base goku is at least as strong as ssg vegeta
And also, if goku didn't do any damage yet he only evaded his blows, this could easily be explained by goku's martial arts, analytical prediction and greater fighting experience

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

what happens afterwards that would suggest it's an outlier?

Base Goku couldn't damage Broly at all, and even with SSG he only managed to hold him for a while before being overwhwlmed by Broly's sheer strength

 

[Hasty12345]

Goku standing to broly in base, which would mean that base goku is at least as strong as ssg vegeta

that doesn't make it an outlier......

 

[Orange]

I mean, if goku didn't do damage, he wouldn't scale at all. Easy

 

[Orange]

that doesn't make it an outlier......

So now goku is as strong as ssg vegeta......

 

[Bernkastelll]

that doesn't make it an outlier......

you're making base goku being stronger than ssgod vegeta, despite they fighting as equals

 

[Hasty12345]

you're making base goku being stronger than ssgod vegeta, despite they fighting as equals

So now goku is as strong as ssg vegeta......

They clearly weren't equals, and there is no problem with Goku ~SSG Vegeta

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Its not even outlier , just PIS, simple.
Move on now.

 

[Hasty12345]

Its not even outlier , just PIS, simple.
Move on now.

I'll drop it.

But my point still stands, the SSG multipliers are too inconsistent and I still disagree with the CRT.