Star Wars Revisions

[Soldier_Blue]

Mando profiles are kinda a mess in general but I'll save that for another time I guess.

I have also been wondering about this.

By the way @ByAsura

There is a feat from a Star Wars Adventures comic where a smuggler named Amaiza Foxtrain flings a what looks like the top of a stone table at Dengar. That could help with lifting strength ratings for Star Wars "peak humans" and bounty hunters.

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

 

[ByAsura]

Doing a rough estimate gets Athletic Human, which moderately decreases if it's ceramic. Since she wielded it like a weapon and tossed it, she probably would be Peak Human. It depends on how strong she is compared to others, though.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Doing a rough estimate gets Athletic Human, which moderately decreases if it's ceramic. Since she wielded it like a weapon and tossed it, she probably would be Peak Human. It depends on how strong she is compared to others, though.

I doubt she's as strong as Dengar. She seems to be scared of him.

Heck, most people are scared of him.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I calculated Fennec Shand push kicking the rock to be Class 5. It's with legs but it's a pushing motion instead of an attack.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Btw wouldn't Grogu's feat of lifting the Mudhorn be more of a LS feat instead of AP? Looks like we have to nerf him again.

We gonna treat Beskar as specifically lightsaber resistant instead of being 8-A/whatever we downgrade Ahsoka to?

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

since we now have gotten sheev's growth in power out of the way, we can finally consider more keys for some characters.

 

[ByAsura]

I have a few extra keys for some characters.

Anakin will be split into Attack of the Clones onwards and Late Clone Wars. By the Clone Wars film, Dooku says Anakin is much stronger than before and considered one the most powerful Jedi, but the justification for AoTC ties together because Dooku's statement refers to the fight they had, in which he put up a far better fight than Obi-Wan.

Ahsoka is early Clone Wars (the feat on her profile is from Season 5), late/post-Clone Wars (fighting Maul), and Rebels (Vader-level).

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

So basically just early Clone Wars and late Clone Wars for Anakin, makes sense.

Obi-Wan can probably be split into Padawan, early Clone Wars and late Clone Wars as well? Plus old Ben.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

I have a few extra keys for some characters.

Anakin will be split into Attack of the Clones onwards and Late Clone Wars. By the Clone Wars film, Dooku says Anakin is much stronger than before and considered one the most powerful Jedi, but the justification for AoTC ties together because Dooku's statement refers to the fight they had, in which he put up a far better fight than Obi-Wan.

Ahsoka is early Clone Wars (the feat on her profile is from Season 5), late/post-Clone Wars (fighting Maul), and Rebels (Vader-level).

still dont think ahsoka = vader, but alright

 

[ByAsura]

So basically just early Clone Wars and late Clone Wars for Anakin, makes sense.

Obi-Wan can probably be split into Padawan, early Clone Wars and late Clone Wars as well? Plus old Ben.

Padawan Obi-Wan isn't really separate enough for his own key. Plus, TPM Obi-Wan was a Padawan.

As for old Kenobi, I'd actually like some statements on his level of power. He's explicitly slower than before, but this same Kenobi beat Maul in 5 seconds.

Edit: Apparently, they were equal and Kenobi took him off guard.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Old Kenobi is vastly more wise and skilled than he was during the Clone Wars era. Him beating Maul in 5 seconds was about to be expected. I don't think strength played a huge role in that victory, and I'm honestly alright with leaving old Kenobi as Unknown.

Maybe the new Kenobi series will give us a deeper insight into his strength Post-Clone Wars.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

canon kenobi IS NOT legends kenobi. he is physically worse in things like speed, strength, and stamina, but he never gave up in being a warrior and jedi, so he actually retained the force qualities that matter here, and is likely even more skilled with it tbh. that is most likely what allowed him to fight vader in the first place. that and there is some statement that he did power up a bit before fighting vader since he needed to turn into a ghost, which took a lot of energy to do.

 

[ByAsura]

The speed thing did refer to force-enhanced speed, by the way.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

there is a lot of controversy tbh. if old maul = old kenobi, but was still like, meh to vader, then how does kenobi match vader? smh my head

 

[ByAsura]

Who says Rebels Maul was that much weaker than Vader? All I remember is Maul saying he couldn't defeat Vader, which is consistent with Ahsoka's battles.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Padawan Obi-Wan isn't really separate enough for his own key. Plus, TPM Obi-Wan was a Padawan.

As for old Kenobi, I'd actually like some statements on his level of power. He's explicitly slower than before, but this same Kenobi beat Maul in 5 seconds.

Edit: Apparently, they were equal and Kenobi took him off guard.

I do mean TPM.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

So as I said we're going to treat Beskar as specifically lightsaber resistant or 8-A/High 7-C?

 

[ByAsura]

Beskar is always described as super durable, so I think it'd scale to the AP of lightsabers.

 

[Catalyst75]

I do not know if this is the right place to challenge these two specific calcs, but I have decided to because I believe them to be inaccurate:

Star Wars Feat - Munificent-class Star Frigate Tanks Asteroids | Naruto Forums

Published by ChaosTheory123 in the blog ChaosTheory123's blog. Views: 6

web.archive.org

Star Wars Feat - Durability of D Squad's Ship without Shields | Naruto Forums

Published by ChaosTheory123 in the blog ChaosTheory123's blog. Views: 405

web.archive.org

For some time now, I have harboured a number of doubts pertaining to these two specific calculations. In the first case, even though there are visual scenes of the movements of the Munificent and the asteroids, including the scene where two asteroids collide with the hull, the velocities of the asteroids and Munificent relative to each other, as seen on screen, aren't used.

As it pertains to the second calculation, it doesn't even use anything from within the setting to get its numbers. Instead, it takes a real-life comet's relative velocity (from a time when it was near Earth) and arbitrarily attaches it to the velocities of all the comets depicted in the scene. Again, when I believe using the relative velocities shown in the scene would be more accurate.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

Who says Rebels Maul was that much weaker than Vader? All I remember is Maul saying he couldn't defeat Vader, which is consistent with Ahsoka's battles.

he said he needed help, he did lose to kanan, iirc, and i cant think anything else, but both of those come to mind instantly.

 

[Travgen]

Old Kenobi is vastly more wise and skilled than he was during the Clone Wars era. Him beating Maul in 5 seconds was about to be expected. I don't think strength played a huge role in that victory, and I'm honestly alright with leaving old Kenobi as Unknown.

Maybe the new Kenobi series will give us a deeper insight into his strength Post-Clone Wars.

It can go either way to be honest. I think Ben should be rated as unknown as well given the circumstances.
Ben Kenobi is weaker than Obi-Wan per AGtWotF:

Obi-Wan’s moves were slowed by age and lack of practice; Darth Vader - recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter - fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions.

DK's Star Wars Made Easy states that Ben Kenobi is the superior fighter and actually had the advantage over Vader in ANH.

Vader held the upper hand in the From A Certain Point of View novel. However Vader being the superior fighter and Force-user comes purely from Ben’s POV after dying and becoming a Force Ghost. He feels anger and hatred while recollecting his past tales and isn’t mentally in a good place. It doesn’t even match what Ben thought at the time [no fear and being calm]. Vader's superiority there might have come from Ben's hyper-inflated perspective.

StarWars.com states that an early post-suit Vader was weaker than Mustafar Vader to an unknown extent and something about Sidious testing Vader's connection to the Force [sadly I don't have the scan]. Another source places Mustafar Obi-Wan as equal to Mustafar Vader.
But, Master Infil'a is equal to an early post-suit Vaderb but at the same time, Infil'a is superior to Obi-Wan. Post-suit Vader can't be weaker than Mustafar Vader if he's equal to someone who is above Obi-Wan.

Do we have more sources on the subject? This is all I have.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

like i said, too may inconsistencies.
ben kenobi > ANH vader > ben kenobi
obi wan kenobi > ben kenobi
Infla > obi wan kenobi
1 week early vader can fight infla, so he has SOME parity with obi wan kenobi, but a much weaker obi wan is above a much stronger vader? i think we should actually just go and add everything in all of their pages. like, actually say that he could be a good bit below vader, but also a good deal above vader, and vice versa for vader. albeit, i do think that there is the obvious implication that vader is > anybody who isnt sheev by like, pre rebels even. i was arguing this with a friend, and it made no sense for ben to be stronger than vader, since if that was the case, he could have just beaten him and there would be no need for a new hope aka luke, since even before that, they knew luke would never beat sheev, and neither would anybody else ever.

 

[ByAsura]

I do not know if this is the right place to challenge these two specific calcs, but I have decided to because I believe them to be inaccurate:

Star Wars Feat - Munificent-class Star Frigate Tanks Asteroids | Naruto Forums

Published by ChaosTheory123 in the blog ChaosTheory123's blog. Views: 6

web.archive.org

Star Wars Feat - Durability of D Squad's Ship without Shields | Naruto Forums

Published by ChaosTheory123 in the blog ChaosTheory123's blog. Views: 405

web.archive.org

I already debunked those two. We're not using them.

Even if the first one was right, the ships actually did have their shields up.

he said he needed help, he did lose to kanan, iirc, and i cant think anything else, but both of those come to mind instantly.

Firstly, Maul said he couldn't defeat Vader alone and needed help. Secondly, Maul though he was blind, and the fight just ended with Maul tripping over a cliff. Lastly, Maul refused to kill him during their second fight on Dathomir.

Given Maul and Ahsoka's track record of A) effortlessly dominating multiple Kanan-level Inquisitors, B) actually completing their training, and C) having a good amount of potential (Ahsoka rate of increase is even comparable to Anakin's), they are vastly, vastly superior to Kanan.

I'd chalk their first fight up to PIS, which Star Wars Rebels is famous for. Factually, Maul is comparable to Obi-Wan and Ahsoka, the latter of whom was always portrayed as being leagues above Kanan himself.

Ben Kenobi is weaker than Obi-Wan per AGtWotF:

Vader held the upper hand in the From A Certain Point of View novel. However Vader being the superior fighter and Force-user comes purely from Ben’s POV after dying and becoming a Force Ghost. He feels anger and hatred while recollecting his past tales and isn’t mentally in a good place. It doesn’t even match what Ben thought at the time [no fear and being calm]. Vader's superiority there might have come from Ben's hyper-inflated perspective.

DK's Star Wars Made Easy states that Ben Kenobi is the superior fighter and actually had the advantage over Vader in ANH.

StarWars.com states that an early post-suit Vader was weaker than Mustafar Vader to an unknown extent and something about Sidious testing Vader's connection to the Force [sadly I don't have the scan]. Another source places Mustafar Obi-Wan as equal to Mustafar Vader.
But, Master Infil'a is equal to an early post-suit Vaderb but at the same time, Infil'a is superior to Obi-Wan. Post-suit Vader can't be weaker than Mustafar Vader if he's superior to someone who is above Obi-Wan.

I think this is a good enough amount of evidence that we should just remove the fight and key.

Canonical source > Star Wars essay entirely based on the film.

Here's the source.

Vader was greatly overwhelmed by Kirak in the comic, which should take precedence over the storybook. On the revised profiles, I just plan to use it as evidence that Vader is on a similar level to when he fought Obi-Wan.

 

[Travgen]

I agree. It's not something I like to do but when dealing with Star Wars some sources are just wrong even though they are just "as canon" as the others. At least until someone provide new scans or arguments.

The source of Infil'a being equal to Vader is all about Force power, at least according to some Discord dudes. Infil'a is definitely the superior fighter since Vader barely had any time to adjust to the suit and his cybernetics were damaged [if this is even a factor].

 

[ByAsura]

I didn't mean in levels of canon. If levels of canon were a thing, then the movie version of the Obi-Wan fight would be used. I more meant that the source of the fight itself unapologetically portrays Vader as being overwhelmed, cybernetics or not.

If you're going by force, Vader was even overpowered there.

Vader eventually repaired and improved the cybernetics with a training droid, but was still overpowered.

 

[Travgen]

I think this is a good enough amount of evidence that we should just remove the fight and key.

I confused your statements because you hadn't edited this when I answered. I think it was something about ignoring the fight when I first read it. That's why I mentioned ignoring certain contradicting parts of the lore.

If you're going by force, Vader was even overpowered there.

Vader broke through Infil'a's barrier and choked him. Infil'a then Force pushed him. I sincerely don't see either side overpowering here.
Both can equally affect each other with the Force.

Vader eventually repaired and improved the cybernetics with a training droid, but was still overpowered.

This is after Vader loses the first confrontation. His cybernetics were damaged on his way up. His left leg is damaged here by those weird flying creatures, it's this leg giving in that makes him lose to easily.
Infil'a won and was the superior fighter in both rounds, but I think overpowering Vader through the Force is a stretch, unless I'm missing something.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok.

Infl'a didn't make a barrier. Vader choked him, Kirak broke through the chokehold, and blasted Vader away. Combat is also partially force amplification.

That was the initial confrontation. Not the scans I provided, which was after he repaired and reinforced the leg.

The storybook isn't supported.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

would like to mention the lack of lightsaber and complete inexperience with the new body, btw.

 

[Catalyst75]

I already debunked those two. We're not using them.

But I've noticed they're still on the page and appear to still be referenced in profiles in regards to ship durability.

 

[ByAsura]

Because the changes haven't been applied yet.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Grogu's feat is quite clearly against our wiki standards

"However, lifting should generally not be used to calculate Attack Potency unless it is a fast, explosive form of lift (for example: snatch, clean-and-jerk, etc.). This is based on the biomechanics behind how human type characters attack. Unlike a punch, a kick, or most other types of attacks, a lift is a slow sustained motion which allows for many more muscles fibers to be recruited into the movement more easily, generating much more energy than a fast movement used in combat. Lifting movements also allow the body's tendons to help out by storing the energy, then releasing it in a sudden burst, acting like a spring. If we use real world ratios, when the world's heaviest deadlift is compared to the world's most powerful punch, the deadlift has nearly 5 times more energy, demonstrating the disparity between the two types of movements. Similarly, if telekinesis (or any other ability of a similar nature) is used, the lifting must be performed in a timeframe capable of being used as an attack."

What feats does he have?

 

[ByAsura]

Honestly, he did overpower that creature outright. I think he should just scale to the Mandalorian, at this point.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I calculated Fennec Shand push kicking the rock to be Class 5. It's with legs but it's a pushing motion instead of an attack.

Would this even be applied to LS?

We gonna treat Beskar as specifically lightsaber resistant instead of being 8-A/whatever we downgrade Ahsoka to?

I think so?

@ByAsura @Shadowbokunohero
Any of you have scans of Canon data book entries for Beskar?

Also ByAsura,
That feat where Ravna and Dooku survive an exploding castle? Is there a calc for it?

Padawan Obi-Wan isn't really separate enough for his own key. Plus, TPM Obi-Wan was a Padawan.

As for old Kenobi, I'd actually like some statements on his level of power. He's explicitly slower than before, but this same Kenobi beat Maul in 5 seconds.

Edit: Apparently, they were equal and Kenobi took him off guard.

The From a Certain Point of View novelization for A New Hope implies that Old Ben is close to Vader in power and was holding back during their final battle (albeit Vader was as well).

He’s holding back, testing my limits. He wants to know how time has diminished my abilities. I’m doing the same with him, exploring whether cybernetic joints move as smoothly as muscle honed from years of training. Perhaps we are more alike than I care to think.

Old Kenobi is vastly more wise and skilled than he was during the Clone Wars era. Him beating Maul in 5 seconds was about to be expected. I don't think strength played a huge role in that victory, and I'm honestly alright with leaving old Kenobi as Unknown.

Maybe the new Kenobi series will give us a deeper insight into his strength Post-Clone Wars.

Either Pablo Hidalgo or Dave Filoni stated in one Rebels Recon interview that they went with a short and swift conclusion to the Old Ben vs Maul duel because duels between two masters of equal skill are more likely to end quickly rather than be drawn out.

 

[ByAsura]

Any of you have scans of Canon data book entries for Beskar?

Also ByAsura,
That feat where Ravna and Dooku survive an exploding castle? Is there a calc for it?


The From a Certain Point of View novelization for A New Hope implies that Old Ben is close to Vader in power and was holding back during their final battle (albeit Vader was as well).


Either Pablo Hidalgo or Dave Filoni stated in one Rebels Recon interview that they went with a short and swift conclusion to the Old Ben vs Maul duel because duels between two masters of equal skill are more likely to end quickly rather than be drawn out.

Here's one I posted in the OP. Nobody can say it only scales to Mandalorian War-era Jedi like one of my other threads since they've repelled strikes from Ahsoka at her peak.

There is somewhere (Spino made it), but the feat itself was never portrayed as canon. It's a story from the past brought up by an elderly Clone Trooper, and even the other characters question it.

They were both holding back at one point, but eventually went all out.

Here's the quote. It's on Youtube, but I'm too lazy.

• If you talk to a lot of people that sword fight they’ll tell you, people that are very good don’t have long fights. It’s very quick. And so that scene it’s an homage to the Seven Samurai. I think on one level people would be excited to see another prolonged lightsaber fight but I just never really saw the confrontation that way because to do that is to say the characters just don’t have growth. Yes, it’s exciting as an audience member but it’s not a really believable thing. Storytelling has to evolve. - Rebels Recon #3.20: Inside "Twin Suns"

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Fennec made a pushing motion instead of a kicking motion so I think so but I'm not sure.

 

[Travgen]

Infl'a didn't make a barrier. Vader choked him, Kirak broke through the chokehold, and blasted Vader away. Combat is also partially force amplification.

In this case, both were unguarded. Infil'a did not break through the chokehold, he pushed Vader while being choked.
Combat is partially augmentation but Vader's movements are hindered regardless of that since we're talking about a version of him that's still getting used to the suit.

That was the initial confrontation. Not the scans I provided, which was after he repaired and reinforced the leg.

When I first mentioned Vader's cybernetics being damaged I was talking about the first round. You mistook it for the moment after Vader fell. In round 2, Kirak outduels and hits Vader once and the fight ends after Vader TKs the city's water tank or whatever that is. I don't see these performances as anything other than Infil'a being the superior fighter.

If you remain unconvinced I'll concede this point.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

infla is clearly more agile and is more skilled at that point in time. i would also argue that vader wasnt mentally great there either, but whatever. vader shows more force power the whole time imo, kirak is just powerful enough to be nigh equal to him in power.

 

[ByAsura]

In this case, both were unguarded. Infil'a did not break through the chokehold, he pushed Vader while being choked.

To me, it looks like Kirak overpowered it, which is why he is able to move his entire upper body, and loses a force blast. I could be wrong, though.

Combat is partially augmentation but Vader's movements are hindered regardless of that since we're talking about a version of him that's still getting used to the suit.

Firstly, all that was hindered were his force-enhanced speed and agility. His strength and ability to use the force were only decreased overall due to becoming weaker. If you go by the first round, the reason his cybernetics were even being damaged is because he was being overpowered and losing ground.

When I first mentioned Vader's cybernetics being damaged I was talking about the first round. You mistook it for the moment after Vader fell. In round 2, Kirak outduels and hits Vader once and the fight ends after Vader TKs the city's water tank or whatever that is. I don't see these performances as anything other than Infil'a being the superior fighter.

No, I showed scans of the second fight before you talked about his damaged cybernetics. You then brought up the first round where Vader had damaged cybernetics.

Also, unrelated, but here's Kirak sensing Jedi across the galaxy from a Mid Rim planet. Given how the galaxy in Star Wars is 120,000 light-years, he would have been sensing Jedi from tens of thousands of light-years.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Btw what should we rate the speed of blasters (and bounty hunter level people) at? I think Soldier had issues with the Subsonic values. There were some hypersonic calcs on OBD right?

 

[ByAsura]

I've already addressed those somewhere. Basically, they rely on things like orbital speeds and weird stuff, despite the blasters moving nowhere near that fast, and the characters within these scenes traveling at nowhere near those speeds.

From what I've found, they're significantly above 500 kph speeders.