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cool, but who tf are u?
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oh that. i can find out pretty easily. gimme till tomorrow tho.
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I do not know what the hell is going with that
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- #164
Ok. That's fine.
If Dooku were strong, he wouldn't even be overpowered and completely incapable of resisting from across the galaxy.
Talzin's plan, having always wanted to kill the count for being Palpatine's apprentice, was to eliminate Sidious' ties to power (including his apprentices) drain Dooku's life force to obtain a physical form, so it'd be killing two birds with one stone. She ended up just possessing Dooku and restoring her body. It also occurred on Dathomir, where her power is at its peak, and even then she could only match Sidious in power.
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The argument hinges on the idea that Force users can create barriers for protection, but Dooku would have no reason to create one because challenging or defending himself against Sidious means treason. I don't think the passive protection around Force users operate at 100% of their power.
I don't remember much of the argument, but I'll tell you what I could gather from one of my friends in a few minutes. I should note that I don't plan to defend or create a case in Dooku's favor using this.
Talzin believed Dooku's energy would restore her body and give her greater power than she had as a living person. When she fought Mace, she was a much weaker spirit. I believe her existence was pretty unstable too. I don't know how you treat author statements but Jeremy Barlow stated that Talzin was equal to Sidious, I personally think author statements are trash and have no reason to be used at all, but you do you.
During the same confrontation, Sidious stalemated Talzin. To break the stalemate, Maul decided to join in, transferring his power to his mamma. Dooku answered the call to battle and combined his lightning with Sidious's, tipping the balance of the fight in Sidious's favor. If the confrontation was a stalemate and Dooku ended up being the deciding factor even after Maul joined in, this can easily increase the Count's hype.
Dooku after Talzin returned to the physical realm <<< Dooku after Talzin started the draining process <<< Dooku
Dooku had all of his energy drained and only a small time to recover, but even a small portion of his power proved to be useful than Maul's full power. Ok, Maul is not the goodest next to Sidious, but I honestly think this can bump up Dooku's standing. I think the Force choking argument shouldn't be used because Dooku wouldn't dare put up resistance against Sidious. I don't know much about the tiering system or your methodology so I'm not about to try to lecture a staff member on something I don't understand.
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guys, if guy is from the same place i am from, he is not trustworthy, and might use drugs.
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- #168
My argument hinges on the fact that Dooku couldn't even put up some form of resistance.
I've changed the order of these points for the context of my argument.
Firstly, I'm not going by his statements from Jeremy Barlow. I didn't even know about them before you mentioned it. I'm going by the literal fact that they clashed evenly in the comic, even while her power was heightened by being on Dathomir. Secondly, author intention is very important. If Stan Lee claimed Spider-Man was far stronger than the Hulk in a comic he wrote, then that'd be true for that specific piece of media. I this case, we're using the media provided and should abide by portrayal.
The process was stopped part way through, so she most likely only gained enough power to restore herself, and even then Talzin went from Clone Wars era Windu-level to Palpatine level. Someone's life force in Star Wars is explained by Talzin herself as being the culmination of their force energy (the living force), and her plan was to use all of it, so this would be Dooku's force power and the energy it takes for him to live.
Dooku wasn't weakened at the start of the process, only during. She just absorbed some life force.
As you said, this proves he's superior to Clone Wars Darth Maul, who was on the same level as 19 BBY Ahsoka and pre-Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan Kenobi/Anakin. This is something we already know and have on the profile. But thanks for the added justification.
To conclude, the energy an already amped Talzin took most likely only restored her body rather and power, rather than increasing them, and the summation of Dooku's energy would most likely have been greater than his normal force power.
The fight is on Cal's profile already. I suppose it could be added justification, but I think it just means tipped to Cal's favour given that Malicos was about to crush him before Merrin intervened.
Let's not talk about that, shall we?
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he dont wanna identify himself, and that makes him more dangerous than u can imagine.
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My argument is that Dooku wouldn't try to resist Sidious. I do agree that Sidious is much more powerful than Dooku, but something as trivial as being Force choked by his master shouldn't trump Dooku's direct feat of fighting Yoda, specially since Dooku was out of Yoda's range to stomp or ragdoll with the Force. If something should be treated as out of the ordinary it should be Sidious's feat of affecting someone from across the galaxy.
Sorry if my original post implied that you were using Barlow's statements as proof. I mentioned them because I didn't know how accurate you considered them.
Talzin fully returned, even though she failed to complete the ritual. The hard part is quantifying how Dooku's energy or the Dathomir nexus [if it exists in canon, not sure. Malicos implies it exists and that he controls it post-Order 66] affected her power. The narrative points us at the direction that she would need some rest to heal because she weakened, but she was capable of matching Sidious before healing while Maul couldn't even summon his lightsaber under the same conditions. Unfortunately I don't have more canon sources to reinforce this point.
Dooku started to weaken after Talzin decided to use his body. Dooku then took a blast of Sidious's lightning and Talzin fully drained him to return, that's why I separated him in three stages, one of them is his normal state. I apologize for that, I didn't read the original post to see the canon profiles. I was actually in search for Legends stuff and stumbled upon this thread.
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- #171
I'll concede here, but the difference was never portrayed as small. Ventress herself notes that his energy is at least as dark and powerful as Dooku while detecting it through a hologram.
Unlike Legends, canon more portrays him as closer to Obi-Wan. I suppose I'll wait until Lorenzo gets back to me on that Palpatine stuff.
It's fine. I wasn't really suggesting you were saying I did, more defending that I didn't.
I said Talzin fully returned, but the ritual was incomplete, so she's probably not as powerful as she wanted. I think this makes sense given how her weakened, partially manifested spirit form fought Windu.
It's stated she would be weakened, but the process itself wasn't complete, Dooku didn't die, and she ended up possessing him briefly, so I'm not 100% sure.
I wouldn't say he was further weakened by the possession, but I agree with the force lightning stuff.
That's ok. Since you seem to be knowledgeable on Star Wars, Lorenzo, Spino and I are actually planning to revise Legends very soon. Here's the message walls if you're interested. Part 4 is where we're currently at.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
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he seems to be, but idk how much he knows, since his dumbass wont reveal himself to me smh my head.
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So we doing keys right? At least for Anakin and Obi-Wan.
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Actually, it is not out of the ordinary for Sidious to showcase galactic range in Canon.
He once almost mind-****** ROTJ Luke while he himself was on Coruscant and Luke was in the Outer Rim.
He has also used Sith Sorcery and Sith Alchemy (along with Dooku) in an attempt to mind-**** Yoda [while Sidious & Dooku were on Coruscant and Yoda was on Korriban].
There is also Sidious being able to use Snoke as a meat puppet across galactic distances, mentally influencing Ben Solo across galactic distances throughout Ben's life, and he was the one who presumably unleashed a Force Lightning blast that destroyed Luke's Jedi Academy (while he would have been on Exegol).
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@Travgen I didn't see that part of the response for some reason (I have a tendency for tunnel vision). Soldier Blue is 100% right, there's tons of examples where force users detect and affect events from across the galaxy. It's also implied in The Empire Strikes Back that force choking is easier through holograms when Vader chokes Admiral Ozzel to death. This same thing happens in TLJ, when Snoke floors Hux.
- Sidious seemingly puppeteered Snoke from across the galaxy, at least according to TRoS Visual Dictionary. It's also heavily implied that Palpatine or Snoke was communicating with Kylo, despite him having been traveling throughout the Mid- and Outer-Rim.
- Obi-Wan senses the death of Alderaan from light-years away. He and Ventress also sense Anakin outside Teth System, despite them being inside it.
- In Gathering Forces, Ezra talks to Tseebo from another star system.
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That sounds really cool
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@Asura @Soldier_Blue I didn't know canon Sidious was this powerful, pretty impressive.
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The thing with the force is that weight, size and distance aren’t as much a factor as most people seem to believe. Force-sensitives utilise a universal power that is heavily implied to extend beyond the universe and into hyperspace, or a bit further.
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The concept itself from Tarkin and a scrapped TCW episode concept. The image he posted is from Star Wars: The Complete Visual Dictionary, New Edition iirc
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the first one (imperial palace one) is from "The official Helmet Collection 26"
second one is from "The official Helmet Collection 28"
i can maybe find a few more, but i feel like even just 1 is enough lol
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found this:
“Q. Marvel’s current Darth Maul comic also takes a “Year One” approach to a powerful Sith warrior. Given Marvel’s tradition of “head-to-head” specials, who do you think would win if the two ever got to face off?
A. Oh man - it would be a pretty amazing fight either way! I think a big part of it would depend on when was plucked from his respective timeline. After Vader find out about Luke, I don’t think he would let anyone get in his way, regardless of their skills with a lightsaber. But Maul in his prime against the Vader in his early days? If Maul had more to fight for, he might just be stronger with the dark side. You never know...”
-- Star Wars Insider #174
“Q. Marvel’s current Darth Maul comic also takes a “Year One” approach to a powerful Sith warrior. Given Marvel’s tradition of “head-to-head” specials, who do you think would win if the two ever got to face off?
A. Oh man - it would be a pretty amazing fight either way! I think a big part of it would depend on when was plucked from his respective timeline. After Vader find out about Luke, I don’t think he would let anyone get in his way, regardless of their skills with a lightsaber. But Maul in his prime against the Vader in his early days? If Maul had more to fight for, he might just be stronger with the dark side. You never know...”
-- Star Wars Insider #174
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- #183
Then that's fine. But Vader never overpowered Palpatine.
Darth Maul was actually much stronger after being cut in half. Even at his peak in power, he had trouble against Ahsoka, who was only on par with Vader after growing way stronger. Maul himself was also around Obi-Wan and Clone Wars Anakin, both of whom are much weaker than Vader was by 14 BBY.
Darth Maul was actually much stronger after being cut in half. Even at his peak in power, he had trouble against Ahsoka, who was only on par with Vader after growing way stronger. Maul himself was also around Obi-Wan and Clone Wars Anakin, both of whom are much weaker than Vader was by 14 BBY.
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Yeah, Sidious is laughably above Vader. There's no real scaling to be had between the two.
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That is really cool did not know that
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You can kinda make an argument for Legends though since there's some evidence of Sidious growing stronger throughout the years.
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Anyway does anyone else know why Mando doesn't scale to 9-A when his profile literally links him to a 9-A character?
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Mando profiles are kinda a mess in general but I'll save that for another time I guess.
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btw, ahsoka vs mando is gonna some sorta outlier, right? being tagged by a rope, and not overpowering him is ridiculous.
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Outlier for us yes, but outlier for Ahsoka no. Reminder than Cad Bane and random aliens consistently did exceptionally well against even top tier Jedi.
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ahsoka is supposed to be some, mace windu lvl jedi, who low key no diffed jango fett (legends it was a little bit tougher, but still)
XSOULOFCINDERX
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He only Low Diffed Jango because his Jetpack Malfunctioned. Like both Mace Windu and Count Dooku weren't expecting that to happen as you can see from their reactions in the movie.
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did mando even use his jet pack?
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I don't remember. I'm just pointing out that Jango got No Diff'd for a reason.
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Yeah. Just remember that force users are significantly more incompetent than what our profiles imply, so her being punked like that is actually not that inconsistent in-universe.
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at least this is true enough. not all of them fight like dooku or yoda, which is really annoying.
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His beskar should scale to her AP.
Idk about speed. I got the impression Mando was barely keeping up. Hes definitely faster than Boba.
Excluding the top tiers, is there a speed rating for low-mid tier Jedi? Considering the mandalorians waged wars agsindt the Jedi in the past and Jango has the hype of killing Jedi, i think they should vaguely scale.
Idk about speed. I got the impression Mando was barely keeping up. Hes definitely faster than Boba.
Excluding the top tiers, is there a speed rating for low-mid tier Jedi? Considering the mandalorians waged wars agsindt the Jedi in the past and Jango has the hype of killing Jedi, i think they should vaguely scale.
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Well, to be fair, the Mandalorians had to develop tech & tricks specifically for fighting Jedi. And Kanan notes while he is training Sabine in lightsaber combat that the Jedi still ended up winning the Mandalorian-Jedi war.
She's more on or slightly below Vader level, not Windu level.
Then again, we don't know how much she grew or weakened in power between 2 BBY and 9 ABY, which is a 11 year gap.
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