Standards for Immeasurable Speed

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I actually continued after saying that for two paragraphs. But if you are just going to respond with sarcasm then okay.

 

[VenomElite]

C'mon. Let's not be harsh to one another. I understand how we can get onto one another's nerves, but let's not insult and such.

Exactly this. Stop fighting. You know better.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

If you want to discuss it, just do it in PMs or another thread, this is becoming far less relevant than it needs to be.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@matt: anything using string theory uses physics, which as I have said a thousand times before, is practically opposed to dimensional tiering.

Also, as far as marvel goes, they commonly use the cantor set system of multiverses for their higher ranked entities, like stating that true cosmic concepts are at an unimaginable cantor/cardinal set of infinity.

You cannot assume that physics in all of fiction is identical to real-life physics, and many fictions use basic physics for a lot of things but throw it out of the water for others. DC Comics for example using Superstring-Theory for a lot of things, but isn't accurate with how Higher-Dimensions work nor their number, and that's okay.
Physics conform to fiction, not the other way around.

And false, Marvel has infinite higher spatial dimensions. I proved this months ago.

Physics in general at its very foundation is against dimensional tiering, why else do you think we dont use actual physics. And yeah, they use basic physics like newtonian or to an extent classical physics, but in the case of marvel at least, I dont think they commonly use the geometrical interpretation, rather the cantor version of math and a non dimensional tiering physics.

Physics conforms to coherency, if you cannot build a system where physics doesnt break-down due to various mathemtical mistakes, then its not physics, simple as that. Which-once again, is why we use geometry and simple math instead, because it is simple and free to work with and doesnt require us to deal with the huge number of mathematical rules and limtations that a physical system needs to follow.

Also, marvel may use infinite spatial dimensions, but they dont really use it like we do, they use it in a complex quantum mechanical manner, and for the higher stuff they use cantor's math.


All in all, what I am saying is that our system is fine overall, we just need to extend it to temporal definitions.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Marvel is super simple. Every Higher-Dimension is infinitely above the previous. Regardless if they explain it geometrically or with transfinite mathematics, the end result is the same.

 

[LordXcano]

Yeah I'm done now. Just needed to get that one out of my system.

 

[Thebluedash]

For the first time in my life, I agree with Hop here. Likely better to close this thread before it gets out of hand. We are staff after all...

 

[VenomElite]

We should wait. Kavpeny told Ant he will reply in 24 hours.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Marvel is super simple. Every Higher-Dimension is infinitely above the previous. Regardless if they explain it geometrically or with transfinite mathematics, the end result is the same.

Not really, marvel does have the infinite ranking hierarchy, but their are different methods to explore the same idea. In the case of marvel, they repeatedly time and again use cantor's theory and apply it to greater multiverses to explain their concept. In our version of the infinite hierarchy, we use a simple geometrical means. Simply because the result is the same doesnt mean the meethods have to even remotely be similar.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The end-result is the same. Tier 1 can be reached through a vast array of ways, be them geometry, Aleph-Sets, or metaphysical stuff. There is no one correct way.

Also, this thread is not going to be closed.

 

[Thebluedash]

We should wait. Kavpeny told Ant he will reply in 24 hours.

Then we can open the thread for him, when he's here.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

The end-result is the same. Tier 1 can be reached through a vast array of ways, be them geometry, Aleph-Sets, or metaphysical stuff. There is no one correct way.
Also, this thread is not going to be closed.

The result is the same, but that is because they are approaching the same idea but through different ways.

Cantor sets can be used in combination with a quantum mechanical set up but geometric tiering cannot.


Also, this is strying far from the topic. The original point was- about using time dimensions in tiering speed, do you agree or disagree to this- a being with 2 time dimensions (number od spatial dimensions doesnt matter) is infinitely suprior to any 1-time dimensional being (even the ones with infinite 1-time dimensional speed) (and yet again the spatial dimension number can be anything as it doesnt affect the temporal dimensional tiering). - If the answer is no, then you are disagreeing with the very fundamental basis of our tiering system, which I am trying to extend to the logic of speed.

 

[VenomElite]

Closing the thread won't solve anything. This is just going to be brought up again and again. TLT is arguing respectfully and reasonably. So we are gonna do just that.

 

[Extreme123dz]

question, Any Baing who can conrol, Manipulate, create or Destroy conceptos Like Speed/distance, are considering to have immeasurable speed whitout have or are a Universal/Higher being? and this includes the Embodiment/One whit the Space?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't get the question.

But if controlling concepts like distance and shit gives you immeasurable speed? Not really, but at least infinite depending on the high-end interpretation.

 

[Promestein]

Leave the thread open. As long as it doesn't fall apart into personal attacks, it should be fine. Stay civil, respectful, and rational.

I don't have much to say here, personally. I am not all that well-versed in mathematics or physics or geometry.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

By the way, there's a guy giving a thumbs up to literally every post in this thread.

 

[Arigarmy]

Matt don't play games fam, it's you. you can just click the X Kudos to see who did it.

or moathon

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I know who it is, I just brought it up since it's weird.

 

[Arigarmy]

Eh, people do what they want I guess. Not stopping him.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

I kinda feel down for the rest of the day for now, got an ache in the back of my neck, so I will post responses tomorrow, in the meanwhile, you guys can post your opinons/points.

 

[Momokamaru]

That just makes things complicated. There are many concepts of dimensions. Immeasurable speed should just be outside physical distance. It's simple and makes sense as you go up the dimensional ladder. Including temporal dimensions will only alienate people more. The system used on this site is already complex enough. It needs to remain simple like ACF and Vi Powerlisting.

 

[KamiYasha]

I don't think our current Speed System should be changed at all.

IMO it's fine as it is.

 

[ExerciseDancefloors]

My argument has nothing to do with real life science. It has to do with fiction and how it portrays those concepts, and a practical solution to rank these characters. You bring up 1D characters with 2 Temporal Dimensions... Can you provide any examples of such beings across fiction?
Infinite Speed: The Distance / Time equation results in an infinite number

Immeasurable Speed: The Distance / Time equation doesn't apply.

It's really so simple, you guys.

I always thought the opposite; for example Infinite means never ending, whereas Immeasurable means finite but impossible to calculate.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Matthew Schroeder, VenomElite, and Sera Loveheart. We are definitely not going to change our dimensional tiering system, and it is strongly against the rules of this site to attempt to dismantle it.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Antvasima, no offense but TLT and the others weren't trying in any way to dismantle the dimensional tiering system, they made that explicitly clear they like our tiering system and only wish to add more specification to it, the opposite of dismantling really. So no rules are being broken here.

Also Ant, isn't it a bit too early to end this thread when we've yet to agree on a solid stand(no offense to your judgment btw.)

I wholeheartedly think we should wait until Lordkavpeny comes and stakes his opinion on the subject cause clearly, this is an important topic that should be addressed by all active staff and bureaucrats don't you think?

Edit: All opinions should be treated and listen equally among us staff, and no ones opinions should be shot down just because one finds it unjust, it should be carefully analyzed and should either be debunked or supported among staff. That's how things should work. Arguing harshly and throwing tantrums will get us nowhere.

And pushing things or sniffing out an arguing will never push us forward and make this wiki grow, or worse not fix the bond among staff thus us always being divided.

 

[Antvasima]

If I understood LordXcano correctly, he wishes to dismantle the fundaments of our system. That is completely unacceptable.

I am not sure when Kavpeny will be able to reply. He said that it would take at least 24 hours.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

If I understood LordXcano correctly, he wishes to dismantle the fundaments of our system. That is completely unacceptable.

I am not sure when Kavpeny will be able to reply. He said that it would take at least 24 hours.

LordX was simply throwing his own opinion while also agreeing with the points of TLT, I know he did not consider the idea of dismantling our tiering System. I can assure you he likes and cares for our system.

Maybe only wishing to upgrade it to something more accurate or proper. But than him and matt sort of got personal and well things just got bad for a bit.

But like I said I assure you he meant no harm.

As for kavpeny we should either temporarily close the thread until he returns or leave it alone when comes back. Either way he needs to say his opinion that's for certain.

 

[Antvasima]

If I remember correctly, he stated outright that he wishes to replace it. That is to undermine the basic fundaments of our entire wiki. This discussion seems to have taken a dangerous turn.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Antvasima he literally did not state it at all in his comments, in fact the one who suggested it was reppuzan who lordxcano commented back saying "I did not say that, don't put words in my mouth."

 

[Antvasima]

Isn't the major complaint that pretty much every website levies against our tiering system is that dimensional tiering is almost never ever used in fiction outside of technobabble and Mr. Mxyzptlk?

I'd much rather prefer a system that is actually accurate and doesn't reflect fiction over a system that doesn't reflect fiction and isn't accurate.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Isn't that more of an opinion than a direct demand for our dimensional tiering to be changed. It be best if we let the man himself have a say to what he said.

 

[Antvasima]

It is still considered as highly subversive for a staff member to take up such issues in a public content revision thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Grudge

He actually kinda did.

"Isn't the major complaint that pretty much every website levies against our tiering system is that dimensional tiering is almost never ever used in fiction outside of technobabble and Mr. Mxyzptlk?

I'd much rather prefer a system that is actually accurate and doesn't reflect fiction over a system that doesn't reflect fiction and isn't accurate."

He was literally statement that fictions don't use higher dimensions and that our system is inaccurate and doesn't reflect fiction.

 

[VenomElite]

As Reppuzan said, our system is the best solution for us. Is logically coherent and works. We never said "our way is the best way, everyone else is wrong". We do things our way, they do things their way. There are other sites that use dimensional tiering that are still different from us in how they treat some things. Everyone has their own interpretation.

 

[Lina_Shields]

It is clear as day that an issue such as this should be handled by the staff members only, as this is an issue regarding the site/tiering system.

I will be moving it. Don't move it back.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with VenomElite.

 

[VenomElite]

@Lina

Thanks, that's probably for the best.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

That just makes things complicated. There are many concepts of dimensions. Immeasurable speed should just be outside physical distance. It's simple and makes sense as you go up the dimensional ladder. Including temporal dimensions will only alienate people more. The system used on this site is already complex enough. It needs to remain simple like ACF and Vi Powerlisting.

Complicated? Not really. Gradiating temporal dimensions to speed is not any more complicated than dimensional tiering for AP and dura. Immeasureable speed outside physical distance? Any grade 12 math student can tell you the speed of any higher spatial dimensional being moving in all the extra space dimensions over some period of time. The fact that people think beyond 3-space dimensional beings are beyond calculable distance is absurd. As long as a being has one time dimension, and non infinite speed at that, its speed can easily be calculated and measured. Which is literally the opposite of the term immeasuruable. I am for logical coherency and truthfulness to the mathematical system. The whole idea is to make ourselves more and more mathematically true, doesnt matter who we alienate, heck a majority of vs sites most likely do not use dimensional tiering, so should we go back to the megaversal system to not alienate them? No, of course not! And the same goes for temporal dimensional tiering.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@Grudge
He actually kinda did.

"Isn't the major complaint that pretty much every website levies against our tiering system is that dimensional tiering is almost never ever used in fiction outside of technobabble and Mr. Mxyzptlk?

I'd much rather prefer a system that is actually accurate and doesn't reflect fiction over a system that doesn't reflect fiction and isn't accurate."

He was literally statement that fictions don't use higher dimensions and that our system is inaccurate and doesn't reflect fiction.

I think what he said was other sites complain about our system, but it is mathematically accurate. So that accuracy should be extended to speed tiering based on temporal dimensions, hence supporting a system that uses logic more than example of fiction. Arguing against temporal tiering based on example and not logic is hence like those other sites arguing against dimensional tiering and instead of following the basic geometric logic, they argue to see explicite examples of this tiering in every fiction- which is again something non dimensional tiering sites use.

Then again I might have misinterpretted him as well.