Standards for Immeasurable Speed

[Sera_EX]

I was reluctant to leave a reply but considering Kavpeny won't be able to reply in a while and Ant is overworked as it is, I'll go ahead and try to explain this once.

Immeasurable speed is moving outside of linear time and the three-dimensional concepts of distance and speed, hence the term immeasurable. TLT seeks to merely add to this definition.

But our system operates on basic geometry. We only use dimensional physics to define what a multiverse is. Henceforth, multiple temporal dimensions is a bit too specific and will cause us to have to change a lot of profiles otherwise we'd have a massive inconsistency.

Our definition of dimension clearly states that each spatial dimension and added temporal dimension is more than countably infinite times greater than the last. Therefore a 3-D (4-D spacetime) entity is nowhere comparable in speed to an 8-D (9-D spacetime) entity. Are we seriously going to get too specific here?

Think about it. We have a total of 12 tiers. 3/4 of our system is based of 3-dimensional phenomena because that is the most commo. Technically each higher dimension also would have some superiortiy within its class. Just like the entire 3-D physical universe is incomparably greater to a simple 3-D human, the same could be said for a 5-D multiverse and a mere 5-D creature. Yet for simplicity's sake we rate 5-D characters automatically as High 2-A.

I understand and respect where TLT1 is coming from and his proposal, I just think it's too specific. We already have a complex system, and making it even more complicated will only drive our community a way as lately, we have become too strict with certain definitions - most for the better - but isn't something we should encourage.

Hopefully this can be settled peacefully without me having to explain this again, I can't be very active this month.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Sera Loveheart 100%.

 

[VenomElite]

I agree with Sera. We already have an established definition we're using here and it works for us. There are many concepts of spatial and temporal dimensions (geometry, quantum physics, etc.) and we are obviously using the most basic one.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Sera seems to make sense.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

But our system operates on basic geometry. We only use dimensional physics to define what a multiverse is. Henceforth, multiple temporal dimensions is a bit too specific and will cause us to have to change a lot of profiles otherwise we'd have a massive inconsistency.

Our definition of dimension clearly states that each spatial dimension and added temporal dimension is more than countably infinite times greater than the last. Therefore a 3-D (4-D spacetime) entity is nowhere comparable in speed to an 8-D (9-D spacetime) entity. Are we seriously going to get too specific here?

Think about it. We have a total of 12 tiers. 3/4 of our system is based of 3-dimensional phenomena because that is the most commo. Technically each higher dimension also would have some superiortiy within its class. Just like the entire 3-D physical universe is incomparably greater to a simple 3-D human, the same could be said for a 5-D multiverse and a mere 5-D creature. Yet for simplicity's sake we rate 5-D characters automatically as High 2-A.

I can see where you are coming from but there are a bunch of problems with keeping things not clear.

Example- So a 9-D entity with one time dimension is faster than a 2-spatial dimensional entity with 2 or 3 time dimensions? That doesnt make sense. It is like using the megaversal system and saying everyone between multiverse and tier 1-A level gets grouped right there.

Yes we automatically rate 5-D characters at High 2-A because it makes sense that way. But here, if we dont count temporal dimensions, its like saying that it doesnt matter how characters are ranked between multiversal level and 1-A.

Also, lets be clear about why each higher dimension is rated infinitely higher, it is because they cover more points in space. I am saying that we should apply the same logic to speed and time. We need to be careful about the number of time dimensions even within immeasurable speed.

Example- If someone is stated to be beyond normal time, you would not go on to assume that they are like 3-time dimensional or 5-time dimensional, no, you would assume that the number of time dimensions they have is likely 2. On the other hand, if the 9-D being only functions with one time dimension and is not infinite in speed within the set-up (which is entirely logical), then it can be out-sped by lower-spatial dimensionals. Just like a human can be outsped by a 1-spatial dimensional and 1-time dimensional being moving at relativistic speeds. We have to distinguish between space and time here, instead of just putting them in the same maxtrix, since the only case where I think that happens is in cases like relativity and physics based on that and in those cases, dimensional tiering itself would not be possible. So in the cases where the spatial dimensional tiering is possible, temporal tiering would not only be possible, but inevitable.

Also we do not use dimensional physics, our system is pure basic geometry. If we went by physics, it would be entirely logical for a random regular 7-D being to be 9-B in terms of stats and subsonic in terms of speed. But that is not the case with simple geometry whereby a higher dimensional being would be "bigger" than a lower dimensional one.

 

[VenomElite]

Let's go back the basics. We all agree that our upper tiering system is based purely off geometry and not physics. Temporal Dimensions are not a concept in geometry. Therefore they shouldn't be used in the first place.

Either time is the fourth dimension or it is an added temporal dimension to any physical space, of any size (5D, 6D, 7D, 10D, etc.). Should we come across multiple temporal dimensions, as with a composite hierarchy, we review it, see how it relates to our system and go from there. I don't like the idea of changing something based off a concept only found in a handful of fictional series. Because if we do, we may as well include metaphysical dimensions and other related concepts as automatically greater than 1-A since they transcend the physical concepts space and time.

 

[Reppuzan]

A user brought up something about our definition of Immeasurable speed defintion:

The speed statistic should be listed as "Immeasurable" only if a character is completely transcendental to the distance, time, and causality of a normal universal continuum.

The latter has never been a factor in our Immeasurable speed ratings during my entire time on this wiki, so I'm wondering if we need a revision or if we're doing something wrong.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree, acausality is typically just hax, but depending on the way it is it can make you immeasurable.

Again, case by case is best.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Matt

I'm more worried about the thought that Acausality is a requirement to have Immeasurable speed, but it hasn't popped up in any thread I've been in.

I can work with a case-by-case basis though.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Let's go back the basics. We all agree that our upper tiering system is based purely off geometry and not physics. Temporal Dimensions are not a concept in geometry. Therefore they shouldn't be used in the first place.
Either time is the fourth dimension or it is an added temporal dimension to any physical space, of any size (5D, 6D, 7D, 10D, etc.). Should we come across multiple temporal dimensions, as with a composite hierarchy, we review it, see how it relates to our system and go from there. I don't like the idea of changing something based off a concept only found in a handful of fictional series. Because if we do, we may as well include metaphysical dimensions and other related concepts as automatically greater than 1-A since they transcend the physical concepts space and time.

Here is the thing though, time is not a spatial dimension, so it is not like it is the 4th or the 5th dimension. Its like having a bunch of apples and oranges. An orange is not the 4th apple or the 5th apple or anything as such. It is different from apples. The same way, time is different from space. Also, I am not changing it based on how things happen in certain verses, but rather based on coherent logic. For example, logically, a 9th spatial dimensional being would normally have 1 time dimension, unless and untill stated otherwise.

Also, what do you specifically mean by metaphysical dimensions? Metaphysics itself is just asking fundamental questions of philosophy, and as for spatial dimensions beyond infinith ones, they would still be High 1-B due to cantor's paradox and 1-As are entirely beyond the concept of any spatial dimension.

And as for the simplification argument- if you really want super simple ratings then why not just go back to the megaversal system- it is the simplest tiering system in vs matches, even though it is not accurate and in theory would lump together beings of unimaginable difference in power. The reason we use our system is because it shows the different gradations of rankings beyond multiverse level+ in an accurate way.

As for transcending space and time- it depends. Transcending space and time in a normal verse with 3 space and 1 time dimensions would mean that the object have more than 3 spatial dimensions and likely 2 time dimensions.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@TLT1

You think way too "scientifically" sometimes. Your suggestions are not based in actual fiction and would turn the Tiering System far too messy and obtuse. Sera and Ven's suggestions are far more reasonable, easy to understand, and functional. And our own Tiering System is solid and has stood for years. It needs not suffer through vast alterations.

 

[VenomElite]

I mean metaphysical as in outside the realm of science. Metaphysical dimensions are not physical. For example some mental-spiritual dimension side-by-side with the three-dimensional reality. Yet completely beyond the physical concepts of space and time.

The sort of the thing where Type 9 immortality comes from.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

I mean metaphysical as in outside the realm of science. Metaphysical dimensions are not physical. For example some mental-spiritual dimension side-by-side with the three-dimensional reality. Yet completely beyond the physical concepts of space and time.
The sort of the thing where Type 9 immortality comes from.

Metaphysical means relating to metaphycis, which itself means thinking about the very basis of reality. I don't think "metaphysical dimension" is an actual term for a dimensional axis like real or imaginary axis or something like that

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@TLT1
You think way too "scientifically" sometimes. Your suggestions are not based in actual fiction and would turn the Tiering System far too messy and obtuse. Sera and Ven's suggestions are far more reasonable, easy to understand, and functional. And our own Tiering System is solid and has stood for years. It needs not suffer through vast alterations.

I am being mathematical about this, not scientific. I am being thorough about this though (if thats what you were trying to say). And how does it make things messy? For the characters at immeasurable speed right now- all of them either have been stated to be beyond "normal" time or scale to someone with such statements or feats., so either all or an overwhelming majority of them won't need changes. I am saying that adding these one or two extra points will only make things more coherent from a purely logical point of view. And these things are stating that a character explicitely needs to be stated to be beyond time/"normal time" or beyond linear time/1-D time to be immeasurable in speed (which applies to essentially all of current immeasurables). The second thing being- a character with more temporal dimensions in infinitely faster than a character with less temporal dimensions.

 

[VenomElite]

Meta = beyond

Physical = Physical

"Beyond physical".

Metaphysical has more than one definition.

For example in my native language, we write the word differently depending on the context

Õ¢óÞÇîõ©èÕ¡ªþÜä (Keijijō) - of or relating to metaphysics

Õ¢óÞÇîõ©èÕ¡ªþÜäÒü¬ (Keijijōgaku-tekina) - transcendent non-physical space.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Meta = beyond
Physical = Physical

"Beyond physical".

Metaphysical has more than one definition.

For example in my native language, we write the word differently depending on the context

Õ¢óÞÇîõ©èÕ¡ªþÜä (Keijijō) - of or relating to metaphysics

Õ¢óÞÇîõ©èÕ¡ªþÜäÒü¬ (Keijijōgaku-tekina) - transcendent non-physical space.

Beyond physical? Well physical means relating to physics or matter or energy in general. In this case, we are not really using physics for our systeem in general, if we were, we would be in a mess to figure out what should come after multiversal+.

But we are not using physics, and instead geometry (presumably without the fractal dimensions or any other complex concept), so "beyond physical" doesnt have a set defintiion here. "Fundamental of reality" on the other hand does.

 

[VenomElite]

I...don't even know anymore. Can't sleep but very tired. Before my English starts breaking I'll yield for now.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

I...don't even know anymore. Can't sleep but very tired. Before my English starts breaking I'll yield for now.

Okay, you can reply whenever you feel active again, no need to strain yourself unnecessarily.

 

[LordXcano]

"Your suggestions are not based in actual fiction and would turn the Tiering System far too messy and obtuse."

Isn't the major complaint that pretty much every website levies against our tiering system is that dimensional tiering is almost never ever used in fiction outside of technobabble and Mr. Mxyzptlk?

I'd much rather prefer a system that is actually accurate and doesn't reflect fiction over a system that doesn't reflect fiction and isn't accurate.

Either way, TLT is 100% correct. It's not even that hard of a thought experiment.

If a 2D square starts moving along at 20 m/s, how are you gonna catch that? Can you catch a pixel on your screen sliding across it at 20 m/s?

The same concept applies with higher dimensional beings. The whole argument that 4D beings are somehow faster than us because they have a greater control of time is based on a common misconception and a simplification of how things work.

It's entirely possible for an 18D being to be outran by me, literally the only difference between us is that we can move in different directions. There is nothing saying we can move in different directions through time.

But if a character is shown to move in a different temporal direction then Immeasurable speed is totally fine. Adding on different tiers of Immeasurable speed for each and every single time dimension is just a little absurd.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I agree with TLT and LordXcano

 

[Reppuzan]

@LordXcano

"Dimensional Tiering is almost never used in fiction."

Er... you might want to do some reading before you make statements like these. Here are a list of series off the top of my head that use Dimensional Tiering.

DC Comics (All comics within)

Marvel Comics (All comics within)

Demonbane (Verse)

Digimo

Shin Megami Tensei

Noisy Tenant

MS Paint Adventures

Masadaverse (And all of its subsidiaries, including Dies Irae, KKK, Paradise Lost, Kazilki Bey e.t.c.)

Zero Infinity

Saint Seiya

You can't say "no one uses dimensional tiering" when there are a LOT of characters who depend on it for proper tiering across major series and powerhouse franchises.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

But if a character is shown to move in a different temporal direction then Immeasurable speed is totally fine. Adding on different tiers of Immeasurable speed for each and every single time dimension is just a little absurd.

Thanks for the support, but for this one part- there wont be different tiers, but the number of temporal dimensions for such immeasurable speed beings will have to be mentioned alongside the immeasurable speed stat (eg. Speed: Immeasurable (has 2 temporal dimensions)). We will also have to remember that more temporal dimensions = inherently unimaginably greater speed.

For the beings simply stated to be beyond the concept of "normal" time without having any mention of the exact number of temporal dimensions, we can safely say that they have at least 2 temporal dimensions for sure.

 

[Reppuzan]

@XCano

Just because other sites dislike our Tiering System doesn't mean we need to cow to their whims. Our system works and it's a heck of a lot more coherent than whatever they use.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@LordXcano
"Dimensional Tiering is almost never used in fiction."

Er... you might want to do some reading before you make statements like these. Here are a list of series off the top of my head that use Dimensional Tiering.

DC Comics (All comics within)

Marvel Comics (All comics within)

Demonbane (Verse)

Digimo

Shin Megami Tensei

Noisy Tenant

MS Paint Adventures

Masadaverse (And all of its subsidiaries, including Dies Irae, KKK, Paradise Lost, Kazilki Bey e.t.c.)

Zero Infinity

Saint Seiya

You can't say "no one uses dimensional tiering" when there are a LOT of characters who depend on it for proper tiering across major series and powerhouse franchises.

In most of those cases, it is us who apply the geomtric logic to the dimension number, not the other way around (which I do support btw).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"is that dimensional tiering is almost never ever used in fiction outside of technobabble and Mr. Mxyzptlk?"

This is completely false.

TLT1 is not completely right. His argument has little basis in fiction, and if your major problem is centered around how other sites don't like our Tiering System then maybe you shouldn't arguing this. This is not a legitimate argument in the slightest.

TLT1's arguments are incredibly flawed for reasons that I, Sera and Ven have pointed out already.

If you don't agree with some of the base assumptions done by our Tiering System, and don't agree that Higher-Dimensional Ratings as we do them can accurately rate high-level characters, then why argue this?

Our system reflects the majority of high-leveled fiction and accurately portrays high-leveled characters much better than the Marvel-centric alternative, and the distinction between Immeasurable and Infinite speed has long since been established and is easy to identify.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@XCano
Just because other sites dislike our Tiering System doesn't mean we need to cow to their whims. Our system works and it's a heck of a lot more coherent than whatever they use.

We are not catering to the whims, instead with this change we would be doubling down on the system we use and apply it to temporal and speed concepts. Our system is coherent, I am simply extending the definition to temporal regions in order to have a coherent speed scaling.

 

[LordXcano]

@Reppu

I wasn't saying dimensions don't exist in fiction, I was saying the vast majority don't use them to scale power. And if they do it's not nearly what it would be like in real life. I'm not going to argue that here, I'm just saying that's what most criticisms directed towards our tiering system are about.

I mean, just as an example:

• Marvel just throws around dimensional numbers whenever it's convenient

• 5D Imps seem to have more of their power based around some inherit property of the 5th dimension (implied to be "imagination"), not because they have more spatial dimensions

• Demonbane isn't even scaled from dimensions, just a statement we can extrapolate out to dimensions

• Dunno about Digimon

• SMT is in the same realm as Demonbane

• Noisy Tenant seems to treat dimensions as just another direction going by the summary

• Dunno about Masada

• Zero Infinity doesn't even mention dimensions, just universes, and his High Universal form is literally only Lightspeed so you're just supporting my point here

• Are you referring to Homestuck? That doesn't even have dimensions

Also:

"Just because other sites dislike our Tiering System doesn't mean we need to cow to their whims. Our system works and it's a heck of a lot more coherent than whatever they use."

I never said that. Do not put words in my mouth.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

"is that dimensional tiering is almost never ever used in fiction outside of technobabble and Mr. Mxyzptlk?"
This is completely false.

TLT1 is not completely right. His argument has little basis in fiction, and if your major problem is centered around how other sites don't like our Tiering System then maybe you shouldn't arguing this. This is not a legitimate argument in the slightest.

TLT1's arguments are incredibly flawed for reasons that I, Sera and Ven have pointed out already.

If you don't agree with some of the base assumptions done by our Tiering System, and don't agree that Higher-Dimensional Ratings as we do them can accurately rate high-level characters, then why argue this?

Our system reflects the majority of high-leveled fiction and accurately portrays high-leveled characters much better than the Marvel-centric alternative, and the distinction between Immeasurable and Infinite speed has long since been established and is easy to identify.

The basis of higher dimensional tiering is on dimensional tiering, this is just refining it further. Time and space are not the same thing and they are only a part of the same sapce-time matrix which is used in physics- the problem with that approach is that physics is directly opposed to any dimensional tiering. So we would be hypocritical to use a system which is directly opposed to ours.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Marvel just throws around dimensional numbers whenever it's convenient"

FALSE. Learn some actual comics.

"5D Imps seem to have more of their power based around some inherit property of the 5th dimension (implied to be "imagination"), not because they have more spatial dimensions"

FALSE AGAIN. Learn some DC cosmology.

"Demonbane isn't even scaled from dimensions, just a statement we can extrapolate out to dimensions"

It does.

"Dunno about Digimon"

It has.

"SMT is in the same realm as Demonbane"

False, it has higher dimensions.

"Noisy Tenant seems to treat dimensions as just another direction going by the summary"

I dunno about this.

"Dunno about Masada"

It does.

"Zero Infinity doesn't even mention dimensions, just universes, and his High Universal form is literally only Lightspeed so you're just supporting my point here"

Dunno about this.

"Are you referring to Homestuck? That doesn't even have dimensions"

It has. 11-D String-Theory.

"I'd much rather prefer a system that is actually accurate and doesn't reflect fiction over a system that doesn't reflect fiction and isn't accurate."

You are not only saying that our fiction isn't accurate and doesn't represent fiction, but saying you want it changed into something else.

 

[VenomElite]

This is getting out of control. Calm down guys.

Sera made perfect sense with what she said. I'm not saying TLT is wrong either.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Sera did made perfect sense.

Also, trying to destroy our Tiering System is agains the rules.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt

Go away.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Whoa whoa. Let's just keep it civil, guys. We don't want a war among staff. Let's mediate or something.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@matt: anything using string theory uses physics, which as I have said a thousand times before, is practically opposed to dimensional tiering.


Also, as far as marvel goes, they commonly use the cantor set system of multiverses for their higher ranked entities, like stating that true cosmic concepts are at an unimaginable cantor/cardinal set of infinity.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@LordXcano

"Go away."

Great argument.

I won't go away if you are outright lying in your claims that fiction doesn't use Higher-Dimensions and declaring that our system, the foundation for our wiki, is inaccurate and false and doesn't represent fiction.

If you dislike the foundation of our wiki, and you apparently do both in Dimensional Tiering-System, and in the basic assumptions we do when debating and analyzing feats (Seeing as you advocate for a system centered around using the lowest possible interpretation, as detailed in your blog), I have to question why are you here?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

C'mon. Let's not be harsh to one another. I understand how we can get onto one another's nerves, but let's not insult and such.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@matt: anything using string theory uses physics, which as I have said a thousand times before, is practically opposed to dimensional tiering.

Also, as far as marvel goes, they commonly use the cantor set system of multiverses for their higher ranked entities, like stating that true cosmic concepts are at an unimaginable cantor/cardinal set of infinity.

You cannot assume that physics in all of fiction is identical to real-life physics, and many fictions use basic physics for a lot of things but throw it out of the water for others. DC Comics for example using Superstring-Theory for a lot of things, but isn't accurate with how Higher-Dimensions work nor their number, and that's okay.

Physics conform to fiction, not the other way around.

And false, Marvel has infinite higher spatial dimensions. I proved this months ago.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Hop would not suggest we alter our logic or the wiki foundations to oppose what basically makes dimensional tiering a thing or not.

The calc group already have a great amount of knowledge on such topics, and their expertise has proven it take precedence.

 

[LordXcano]

"Go away."

Great argument.

About as good as most of yours tbh tho

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Enough of this.