Standards for Immeasurable Speed

[VenomElite]

Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't DarkLK basically told us at least twice that no lower dimensional being can have true immeasurable speed? If yes then why do we have characters with immeasurable speed?

Immeasurable speed is moving outside the 3 dimensional concepts of distance and such. I argue 4D as well since we treat 4D as time anyway. Immeasurable speed starts at 5D. That's what makes it superior to Infinite speed.

This is how it goes:

Infinite Speed: Movement outside the influence of time. Must be naturally a part of such environment.

Immeasurable Speed: Movement outside the 3D concepts of distance and speed and thus increases by 4-D, 5-D, 6-D, and so forth. This is similar to how omnipresence is variable. Therefore, you must be higher dimensional to do this consistently.

Irrelevant Speed: Movement beyond all dimensional concepts of distance. 1-A and above.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, I think feats are important, first and foremost.

In Shin Megami Tensei, the main characters are supposedly just humans who've gained extraordinary power by one mean or another, and with said power they can fight against and even kill Higher-Dimensional deities who exist outside the conept of time.

But I agree with the principle that we need to analyze if it is or not an outlier.

 

[VenomElite]

Fair enough. This is actually more a problem of confusion. I see some explanations for immeasurable speed qualify only for infinite speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, infinite speed means being able to move any distance while time literally stands still.

As far as I have understood, Immeasurable speed means transcending the time and distance of regular 4D spacetime continuums altogether.

However, The Living Tribunal1 has proposed that we simplify the Immeasurable speed definition to 2-Dimensional time and above.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I agree with Matt. The Royal Knights from Digimon have faced off against at least three different Immeasurable entities and have two Immeasurable feats of their own, despite only being 3-D entities (that we know of). Feats should come first.

 

[VenomElite]

What fiction uses two temporalities? Sera mentioned awhile back that according to our system, there should only be two schools of interpretation:

1. time is only +1 added temporal dimension. 3D (4D time), 5D (6D time), 6D (7D time) etc.

2. time is the fourth dimension regardless of number dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, from Grant Morrison's suggestions, DC Comics used something called "Hypertime" for a while, which was referred to as higher-dimensional time in "Crisis Times Five", featuring some of the 5-D imps.

 

[VenomElite]

Hmm. I see. Well I am okay with what Matt and Dark said. Feats should come first, but only if it's consistent and not a blatant outlier.

 

[VenomElite]

However, I think the definitions of infinite and immeasurable speed are too close to each other if that's the case. TLT's solution might be best...

 

[Reppuzan]

Here's another character I've rated as having Immeasurable speed, since he is explicitly stated to move outside of "abstract prisons" like time and space.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with TLT's solution. The distinction between Infinite and Immeasurable is easy to understand and identity.

Infinite = Crossing finite distance in 0 time, or Crossing infinite distance literally, or moving while time is erased (Depending on the context and if it is consistent)

Immeasurable = Being outside the concept of linear time as we understand it completely. Being an "eternal', or "Multi-Dimensional" being who perceives past / present / future as happening simultaneously, or something along those lines.

The distinction is simple.

Sun Wukong from Chinese Folklore is Infinite in Speed since he crossed an infinite distance, and Cronus from Saint Seiya is also Infinite with some of his techniques since he erases time and distance and attacks instantly.

Someone like Eternity from Marvel is evidently Immeasurable in speed (While also being Omnipresent in itself), since Eternity is the embodiment of all of time in the universe across all of history, past, present and future. To him, everything that was, is or will be in the universe is within him. This is obviously Immeasurable, and said character would also logically exist in some degree of "Higher-Dimensional time", or at least a notion of time utterly incompehensible to us.

However, that wouldn't mean that Eternity is "5th Dimensional" or anything like that. It is a 4D being through and through. Existing in a plane where time functions completely different (Called Overspace in Marvel) is not evidence that you posess multiple temporal dimensions.

Likewise, we humans are 3D beings and exist in a universe with linear time, but that doesn't make us 4D.

Similarly, 4D beings are not 5D for existing in such spaces.

I think restricting Immeasurable to only characters with explicitly Higher-Dimensional Temporal Dimensions would:

• Render the Category almost completely unusable, since almost no fiction uses Higher-Dimensional Temporal Dimensions
• Bring complaints and contradictions. Our system is centered on higher-dimensions, but we would be treating Higher-Temporal dimensions as completely separate, and it would lead to people complaining.

Another reason it is impractical to use is that the vast majority of fictions, and to my knowledge virtually every Verse on our wiki, treats our notions of linear time and the 4th Spatial Dimension as being coterminous / synonymous with one another.

This is technically not accurate to scientific theories, but fiction rarely is and as we all know our system isn't either, being geometry based rather than realistic M-Theory based.

So I am in complete and total disagreement with applying TLT1's suggestions. The Speed Tiering System is good as it is, and has been functional since its development.

The problem here doesn't come from a deficiency in the Tiering System itself, but a lack of analytical skills from some people who use it, and are unable to differentiate Infinite from Immeasurable.

 

[VenomElite]

That's pretty much my take on it as well. Thanks for the better explanation Matt. That's basically what I was trying to say ^.^

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Ok, so my solution to this is that immeasureable speed should apply to those beings who are defined by more than one temporal dimension.

The thing is using "beyond 3-D" for this doesnt make mathemtical sense, since here we put space-time in the same tensor-like set-up, which is used in physics. The problem with using a physics version is that physics does not allow for dimensional tiering at all

Meanwhile, in mathematics, you can have any number of spatial axis and use them to calculate the speed easily if you only have one time dimension. So, mathematically speaking using more temporal dimensions for immeasurable speed would make sense. And additionally, our dimensional tiering is based on a simple view of geometry, hence it is best to go with the mathematical version.


All in all, I think it is best to use the number of temporal dimensions for this since it also fits the way we use the tiering system.

So my view is: Any being with more than 1 time dimension sould be immeasurable in speed. (This can even apply to a 1-spatial dimensional being with 2 temporal dimension, where an 11-B being can have immeasureable speed due to the mathematical logic).

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@Matthew

You do know that a 4-spatial dimensional being in a universe with 1 time dimension wouldnt be immeasurable in speed right.

Likewise, a 2-spatial dimensional being in a universe with more than 1 time dimensions would be immeasurable in speed.

In the case of eternity- it is beyond the concept of 1 temporal dimension, hence it is immeasurable in speed.

I am not saying it should excplicitely use a number for a higher dimension. Even stating that it is beyond linear time or "time" would be enough. Also, what? I dont think that a majority of fiction treats time as a 4th spatial dimension. It would treat time as a 4th overall dimension in general (3+1dimensions is absolutely diiferent from just 4dimensions, its like saying 3x+y is the same as 4x or that 3apples and an orange is the same as 4 apples), but do not confuse it with spatial dimensions. Unless, of course if you want to put them in the same matrix- like in physics, where dimensional tiering cannot be accepted.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My argument has nothing to do with real life science. It has to do with fiction and how it portrays those concepts, and a practical solution to rank these characters. You bring up 1D characters with 2 Temporal Dimensions... Can you provide any examples of such beings across fiction?

Infinite Speed: The Distance / Time equation results in an infinite number

Immeasurable Speed: The Distance / Time equation doesn't apply.

It's really so simple, you guys.

 

[GallantKnight_X]

Question: Does having infinite speed mean that timestop won't work on you or does it vary on definition?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If your speed is infinite you can move in stopped time, yeah. Since having Infinite speed will mean you can accomplish things in 0 time.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@Matthew

What I ma saying is that you simply using the total dimensional number is similar to physics which is more like real life. And dimensional tiering doesnt work there. I am talking about a logical analysis from a purely mathematical point of view. Whereby you need to be beyond time or at least beyond liner time to be immeasureble. A character doesnt need to be stated to be 2-time dimensional necesarily. But they need to at the very least be stated to be beyond time for it to be immeasurable.

Using extra temporal dimensions is always a good bonus to solidify the claim, but being beyond time (linear/1-D time) is absolutely necessarily. Which means characters stated to be beyond time are fine at an immeasurable rating. However, you have to keep in mind, that even in the immeasurable case, speed can be rated at temporal dimensions. eg. A being stated to have 3 time dimensions will obviously be faster than a being simply stated to be beyond regular time (since in the first case, the assumption would only take them to 2 dimensions of time unless if the universe already has more than 1 time dimensions at its base).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, TLT1 technically seems to make sense, but I do not know if it is a very practical change if barely any characters across fiction explicitly have more than 1 temporal dimension.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, TLT1 technically seems to make sense, but I do not know if it is a very practical change if barely any characters across fiction explicitly have more than 1 temporal dimension.

Practically none have, and his issues are once again related to actual science and not fiction. I already explained the definitions we use for Infinite and Immeasurable, and how easy they are to identify and separate. There is no issue with our Tiering System here, the issue only comes when people don't get it and make hasty edits.

Making the Tiering System as baffling and obtuse as possible is not the answer.

Eliminating speed ratings is not the answer.

Ignoring fictional context and trying to be 100% scientific with no rhyme or reason is not the answer.

What we do need, however, is more analytical users. It is an unfortunate truth given how open and mainstream we are that we attract a lot of people with little knowledge or experience.

As for the Immeasurable Speed itself: You need to be beyond linear time / beyond time, and other such limitations that are imposed on beings that are 3D and within a universe with 1D time.

This has always been the case.

 

[Promestein]

I agree with Matt.

 

[Kaltias]

I think that what Matthew said previously makes sense. A character that perceive time as a whole instead of tiny bits of it should be Immeasurable even if it's not directly stated to have a higher dimension of time. For example, if a character destroys a timeline, this one has never existed to begin with for a being who perceive only regular time, while it has had a beginning and an end for a being who encompasses regular time.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, 2-dimensional time is technically likely an easier to grasp definition than our current version.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't see how it is easier to grasp at all. Instead, I see it as alienating and complicated, and unsupported by examples in fiction.

"Above linear time" is a much better definition.

Again:

Infinite Speed: The Distance / Time equation results in an infinite number

Immeasurable Speed: The Distance / Time equation doesn't apply.

It's basic and easy to understand.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

2-D includes above linear time, and a 2-D being would be able to percieve all of linear time in a purely mathematical setting.

What I mean is that a being needs to be beyond linear time in order for it to be immeasurable.

Also, matt stop strawmanning me, I am NOT talking about science, I am talking about MATHEMATICS. In fact your earlier version of "3-D' and "4-D"- that is including spacetime in one matrix is more like physics (science, where dimensional tiering is not allowed), meanwhile making the time distinction is more mathematical (dimensional tiering allowed in this case).

I am ok with beyond linear time being the minimal requirement since it means at least somewhere above 1 time dimension. However, even with this, keep in mind a being simply stated to be beyond normal time (without further specifications) is still slower than a being with at least 2 or 3 time dimensions.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have no idea what you are talking about at this point.

Okay, so what? Nobody here denies that a 8D would blitz a 7D.

You are just trying to ruin our Tiering System by making it overly obtusde and complicated.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

I have no idea what you are talking about at this point.
Okay, so what? Nobody here denies that a 8D would blitz a 7D.

You are just trying to ruin our Tiering System by making it overly obtusde and complicated.

Hmm, so an 8-D being with 7 spatial and one time dimension would blitz a 7-D being with 5 spatial and 2 time dimensions as well? That would be completely nonsinsical.

What I am saying is that the minimum requirement for immeasurable speed being beyond "normal" time is okay. But we have to keep i n mind that speed would increase infinitely for more temporal dimensions, and not spatial ones.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Here is the thing.

These examples you talk about don't exist in fiction. Is that so difficult to understand? Name 1 fiction that treats Higher-Dimensions like you do.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Here is the thing.
These examples you talk about don't exist in fiction. Is that so difficult to understand? Name 1 fiction that treats Higher-Dimensions like you do.

lolwut, if we kept going like that then we will have to prove that the fictions we rank treat higher dimensions like we do. Like is there any legit proof that mxy is literally infinitely above an infinite multiverse other than the fact that our tiering system says so? Is that any proof that a random 8-D being in fiction who is shown to be well above the rest of the characters in a sub universal verse is ridiculously above an infinite multiverse in terms of power other than the geometric logic that we (correctly) apply?

Also, we are going by the logical mathematical route here since our system is based on a nice simplistic logical geometrical route of intrepretting things even if the verses or the cases in particular might not allude to it at all. We do so because ti is the logical thing to do mathematically.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Is there proof that Mxy is literally infinitely above an infinite multiverse"

Yes. Multiple.

Also, if you have so much hatred of our Tiering System in general, maybe you shouldn't be the one heralding significant changes towards it?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

"Is there proof that Mxy is literally infinitely above an infinite multiverse"
Yes. Multiple.

Also, if you have so much hatred of our Tiering System in general, maybe you shouldn't be the one heralding significant changes towards it?

>Hatred?

What, I am trying to make it more fundamental to its initial logic, by treating speed-time dimensional tiering like the AP-spatial dimensional tiering, because it makes mathematical sense that way. On the other hand a 7-spatial dimensional being working within 1 time-dimension being immeasureable in speed does not make mathematical sense. And immediately assuming a higher dimensional being is beyond linear time without any statement indicating so doesnt make sense either. (ofc if there is a statement then I am fine with the rating, same goes for a statement for a lower spatial dimensional character being beyond normal time).

Also, as for the first point, it was about spatial tiering, we use it because it makes sense, sam goes for time tiering as well. Also, if you against mathematical ordering of things, then show a few cases where mxy is shown to be infinitely beyond a multiverse without using spatial dimensional tiering (even though spatial dimensional tiering is enough as it is for a logical rating).

 

[Reppuzan]

Things are getting heated here, but honestly I'm still inclined to agree with Matt's examples.

There are multiple characters that move at Infinite or Immeasurable speeds without actually being higher dimensional (i.e. Ryuzu Yourslave, Zoom, Fate's Edmond Dantes).

I can't recall a single instance in fiction where things worked the way you say they do, TLT1. Removing all of the Infinite and Immeasurable ratings would not only be a pain, but it would also be the same as removing our dimensional tiering system.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Exactly. TLT1's approach basically ends with a complete destruction of our Tiering System, and a subsequently crumbling of most of our High-Leveled profiles. And he keeps bringing this up so often that I am becoming more and more inclines to believe that he wants to destroy our Tiering System.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Things are getting heated here, but honestly I'm still inclined to agree with Matt's examples.
There are multiple characters that move at Infinite or Immeasurable speeds without actually being higher dimensional (i.e. Ryuzu Yourslave, Zoom, Fate's Edmond Dantes).

I can't recall a single instance in fiction where things worked the way you say they do, TLT1. Removing all of the Infinite and Immeasurable ratings would not only be a pain, but it would also be the same as removing our dimensional tiering system.

For the last time, you do NOT need to be explicitely stated to be multiple temporal dimensional to be immeasurable in speed. Only need to be stated to be beyond normal time, which goes for literally all example you gave. My change just gives the immeasurable term more definition.

In the case of ryuzu- she literally adds another factor/axis of time, that is literally 2 dimensions of time right there. In the case of zoom he is comparable to flash who himself is explicitely stated and shown to be beyond linear time on MANY occasions. In the case of avenger, he is stated to be able to move outside abstract prisons/defintions like time, which literally means being beyond linear time. That is enough to be immeasurable in terms of speed.

But my proposal is to make it explicitely based on number of time dimensions.

0 to infinite speed = 1 time dimension.

Immeasurable speed = anything beyond one time dimension.

However, beings with more time dimensions would be infinitely faster than the ones with less time dimensions. On the other hand, a being with only more spatial dimensions, but the same number of temporal dimensions as a lower spatial dimensional being is not necesarily by default infinitely faster than the lower spatial (but same temporal) dimensional being. heck an 8-spatial dimensional and 1 time dimensional being can even be logical slower in overall speed than a 2-spatial dimensional and 1 time dimensional being. But an 8-spatial dimensional and 2-time dimensional being will always be infinitely faster than any 1-time dimensional being (even the ones with infinite 1-time dimensional speed).

 

[Antvasima]

Please try to be polite and respectful towards each other. Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I am very stressed out and overworked, so I am not in a good condition to deal with this, but I sincerely doubt that TLT1 wants to destroy our tiering system just because he wants to modify the Immeasurable speed rating. Let's not exaggerate please.

 

[Antvasima]

Kavpeny says that he is busy with hard examinations, but might be able to reply after 24 hours or later.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Anyway, I am very stressed out and overworked, so I am not in a good condition to deal with this, but I sincerely doubt that TLT1 wants to destroy our tiering system just because he wants to modify the Immeasurable speed rating. Let's not exaggerate please.

Okay, sorry if I sounded out of my usual self. I apologize for the words.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.