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Standards for Immeasurable Speed

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@The Living Tribunal1

But how many works of fiction explicitly differentiate between spatial and temporal dimensions? I can't recall a single work of fiction I've experienced that does this.
 
Reppuzan said:
@The Living Tribunal1
But how many works of fiction explicitly differentiate between spatial and temporal dimensions? I can't recall a single work of fiction I've experienced that does this.
Click to expand...
Being stated to be beyond "normal" time or just time itself (as it is in many many cases) is enough for immeasureable speed tiering. What I am saying is not all immeasureable speed characters equal in speed. Someone only stated to be beyond time for a 1-time dimensional universe is logically at 2 time dimensions (unless stated otherwise), but that kind of 2-time dimensional immeasureable speed charcater is infinitely slower than a 3-time dimensional immeasureable speed character.
 
@TLT1

Obviously, a higher-dimensional immeasurable speed character is infinitely more complex and thus can cross an infinitely greater distance than one of a lower-dimension, but I don't see why we need temporal dimensions to quantify this. Furthermore, how do you determine whether or not something has one or more temporal dimensions or if someone is beyond more than one temporal dimension? Fiction rarely gets more specific than "beyond time and space".
 
I have not yet read through the entire thread, as it essentially turned into cancer, but TLT is correct that, for example, a 3-D being moving along a 2-D plane of movement is not automatically faster than a 2-D being moving along a 2-D plane of movement. It would, by definition, be infinitely faster when moving along the z axis, but this would not always be the same for x and y.

However, yes, going up one temporal dimension or being above normal time is totally enough to qualify for immeasurable, and quite a few immeasurable characters already abide by that, so changes would not be very difficult.
 
"TLT is correct that, for example, a 3-D being moving along a 2-D plane of movement is not automatically faster than a 2-D being moving along a 2-D plane of movement."

I agree.

"going up one temporal dimension or being above normal time is totally enough to qualify for immeasurable"

Indeed. The definition already works.
 
Reppuzan said:
@TLT1
Obviously, a higher-dimensional immeasurable speed character is infinitely more complex and thus can cross an infinitely greater distance than one of a lower-dimension, but I don't see why we need temporal dimensions to quantify this. Furthermore, how do you determine whether or not something has one or more temporal dimensions or if someone is beyond more than one temporal dimension? Fiction rarely gets more specific than "beyond time and space".
Click to expand...
Yes you need it. eg, a 4-space dimensional object moving from (0,0,0,0) to (9,2,13,4) at its top speed in 4 seconds has a speed of ~16.7 m/s--> not infinite. You need to realize that speed is and how we calculate it using distance (and how distnce is calculated using an extension of pythagorus theorem).

Time is of utmost importance here, because if you have a 2-time dimension being then even in frozen 1-dimension time, the slowest 2-time dimension being can still move it in. Not only move in it, but cover more points than na infinitely fast 1-time dimension being.

As for determining temporal dimension- being stated to be beyond time in a normal universe is 2-time dimensional. Any higher would need to be stated. That is how it works.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I have not yet read through the entire thread, as it essentially turned into cancer, but TLT is correct that, for example, a 3-D being moving along a 2-D plane of movement is not automatically faster than a 2-D being moving along a 2-D plane of movement. It would, by definition, be infinitely faster when moving along the z axis, but this would not always be the same for x and y.
However, yes, going up one temporal dimension or being above normal time is totally enough to qualify for immeasurable, and quite a few immeasurable characters already abide by that, so changes would not be very difficult.
Click to expand...
I mean, practically all characters at immeasurreable speed as of now abide by the beyond normal time rule by having such statements or feats or scaling to someone with those statements or feats. However if a character happens to have more than 2 time dimensions, then it should be made clear on their speed stat, with something like this->

Speed: Immeasureable (has 3 temporal dimensions).

For beings with 2 time dimensions or the ones stated to be beyond time, it is understood that they have by defintion, 2 time dimensions, so no need to make any changes to them.

The only profiles that need to be adjusted by adding on the time dimension number are the ones that actually have more than 2 time dimensions, and if we dont have any such character on the wiki, then great, pretty much the only thing that needs adjusting is the immeasureable definition on the speed page.
 
Well, I technically do not think that TLT1's proposed change should pose that much of a problem, but am uncertain. It would probably be best to wait for Kavpeny's input.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Well, would if even apply to any character we have?
Click to expand...
IDK if any of the current profiles have characters with this stat, but it is more for technical expansion to the definition, if anything. And hey if someone does eventually find a profile with this case, then they will know what to do.
 
I am uncertain. The 5D imps, like Mxyzptlk have been mentioned to freely move through hypertime, and other characters, who have been shown to transcend linear time, would likely also qualify.

Regardless, it would likely be a more logical progression, given that, as Azathoth pointed out, higher-dimensional geometric size does not automatically translate into lower-dimensional speed, from a mathematical perspective.

It might cause some work to organise the conversion however.
 
Topic is about Immeasurable speed and it's relations to dimensions.

Matt says "Your suggestions are not based in actual fiction and would turn the Tiering System far too messy and obtuse." as a response to a comment TLT made, again, about Immeasurable speed.

I say "I'd much rather prefer a system that is actually accurate and doesn't reflect fiction over a system that doesn't reflect fiction and isn't accurate." as a reference to the system that we use to determine Immeasurable speed.

Context is important to a conversation.
 
Okay. My apologies if I misunderstood. I thought that you wanted to entirely dismantle our dimensional tiering system.
 
Antvasima said:
I am uncertain. The 5D imps, like Mxyzptlk have been mentioned to freely move through hypertime, and other characters, who have been shown to transcend linear time, would likely also qualify.
Regardless, it would likely be a more logical progression, given that, as Azathoth pointed out, higher-dimensional geometric size does not automatically translate into lower-dimensional speed, from a mathematical perspective.

It might cause some work to organise the conversion however.
Click to expand...
Hypertime literally implies a time beyond normal time, and since it is stated to be beyond linear time, it is definitely 2-time dimensional. So thats definitely immeasureable.
 
Mmm... Were you actually referring to only Immeasurable speeds? You yourself claimed that no fiction uses dimensions...

I guess I'll have to take your word for it, even if it seems fishy.
 
I don't see how this does not break our system. If a 3-D character with two temporal dimensions is faster than a 8-D character with one temporal dimension, the 8-D surely isn't infinitely superior as our system suggests, which is exactly what Sera was saying.

We also need to understand that the system DarkLK designed is based of reality-fiction like differences between dimensions. Which several fictions base the difference between dimensions as. Can we please stop getting so technical? No 2-D comic book character can hit me in the face. That's the basics of our system and it has worked for us since it was implemented.

Can you explain the use of temporal dimensions in an easy-to-understand manner that doesn't sound like a college professor is teaching it? We already have too many technicalities anyway. Our Tiering System page has a few footnotes based purely off technicalities which are never found anywhere in fiction. I've seen quite the number of series that display dimensions in this fashion.
 
"Can you explain the use of temporal dimensions in an easy-to-understand manner that doesn't sound like a college professor is teaching it?"

Moving in a different direction doesn't mean you're faster, much less more than infinitely so.

This would be like saying someone moving up and to the left at 1 m/s is faster than Usain Bolt because they're using 2-dimensions to move while Bolt is using 1.
 
Excluding DC, give me five other fictions that use this method of temporal dimensions. Otherwise we're adding something based off technicalities that mean nothing. Not to mention lower-dimensional speed does that translate to higher dimensional space. Once you're 5D and beyond you are immeasurable by default. You are already beyond linear time, and the three-dimensional concept of distance.
 
VenomElite said:
I don't see how this does not break our system. If a 3-D character with two temporal dimensions is faster than a 8-D character with one temporal dimension, the 8-D surely isn't infinitely superior as our system suggests, which is exactly what Sera was saying.
We also need to understand that the system DarkLK designed is based of reality-fiction like differences between dimensions. Which several fictions base the difference between dimensions as. Can we please stop getting so technical? No 2-D comic book character can hit me in the face. That's the basics of our system and it has worked for us since it was implemented.

Can you explain the use of temporal dimensions in an easy-to-understand manner that doesn't sound like a college professor is teaching it? We already have too many technicalities anyway. Our Tiering System page has a few footnotes based purely off technicalities which are never found anywhere in fiction. I've seen quite the number of series that display dimensions in this fashion.
Click to expand...
Here is the thing: the idea behind dimensionality is that the 8-D character is infinitely greater in extent and hence in AP and dura (and range) stats because it covers more sets of points. The whole infinite supriority does not mean it is better at everything. Speed is not infinite for just adding on spatial dimensions. That is not how dimensions work even in geomtry (and our system is based on geometry). And yeah a 2-D comic character can outspeed you, nothing illogical about it (hitting in the face and injuring you would only be possible in non simple geomtric tiering, and hence not in our system).

Easy to understand manner for temporal dimension?- With more temporal dimensions, a being with less temporal dimensions will look like as if it is frozen to you. Simple as that. What I am saying is, having more time dimensions makes you uninaginably faster than someone with less time dimensions and the same cannot be stated for spatial dimensions.

Sure, if you wanna put time and space in literally the same matrix and as one cluster, then you can go for physics based tiering, but in that system, the very concept of dimensional tiering becomes null and void, as a result if you wanna go via that route you will need to change the entire tiering system. So, I am going entirely via the geometric route instead.

You can't have your cake and eat it too you know.
 
"Not to mention lower-dimensional speed does that translate to higher dimensional space."

It does. Speed only required 1 dimension to be measured. "1 meter" is a 1 dimensional concept, yet can be used to measure the speed of 1D, 2D, and 3D beings.

"Once you're 5D and beyond you are immeasurable by default. You are already beyond linear time, and the three-dimensional concept of distance."

Source?
 
Actually, a 5-D generic being would be considered to be (4+1) dimensional unless stated otherwise (in the case of mxy he has an axis beyond the normal time which is why he is immeasurable in speed).

A normal 5-D being without any statements is not even gaurenteed to be infinite in 1-D speed unless stated otherwise.
 
Are you gonna sit here and change every High 2-A's speed to MFTL+ or whatever, because all of them have immeasurable speed.
 
VenomElite said:
Are you gonna sit here and change every High 2-A's speed to MFTL+ or whatever, because all of them have immeasurable speed.
Click to expand...
no, because almost all current immeasurables either have statements of being beyond normal time or scale to such characters. I literally cannot think of any immeasureable we current have who doesnt have a statement of being beyond normal time. Now if someone does come across such a profile, they would know what to do with it from now on.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Wouldn't this make every High 2-A MFTL+ or lower? Seems very off to me.
Click to expand...
Once again, almost all current immeasurable speed character have been stated to be beyond time or scale to another character who has such statements. Being beyond normal time is the bare minimum requirement for immeasureable speed.
 
@TLT

I'm going through them. You're right for the most part, but there's still some that either have no justification (which is a problem anyway) or a few that fall under "I'm just 4/5/whatever D". I'll link when I'm done.
 
"Source?"

Xcano, this is how most fictions treat it, and how our Tiering System treats it as well. I have never seen a single fiction with High-End Tier 1 characters that doesn't treat time as something akin to the "4th Dimension", or something that is easily transcended over by higher-dimensional entities.
 
@Matt

"That can't be true because that's ridiculous" Isn't a logical speaking point.

Plus, this thread is not to get rid of Immeasurable speeds for people who have transcended time. This thread is purely for people who have no statement of doing that, yet are treated as doing so anyway. Are you really going to argue for feats that aren't even stated or implied?
 
Almost all current immeasurables have statements regarding being beyond normal time. That is by definition the minimum requirement for immeasureable speed.
 
@TLT1

"And yeah a 2-D comic character can outspeed you, nothing illogical about it (hitting in the face and injuring you would only be possible in non simple geomtric tiering, and hence not in our system)."

Can you please explain how in our reality-fiction duality based system, a 2D drawing with no existence in the 3D plane can hurt you?

"Sure, if you wanna put time and space in literally the same matrix and as one cluster, then you can go for physics based tiering, but in that system, the very concept of dimensional tiering becomes null and void, as a result if you wanna go via that route you will need to change the entire tiering system. So, I am going entirely via the geometric route instead."

This is not Ventus' argument at all. Our system is based on a duality between fiction-reality, and is further supported by projective geometry. This type of narrative can be seen in works such as the Cthulhu Mythos, When They Cry, The Dark Tower, DC Comics, Demonbane and Demon King Daimao to name a few.

As for treating time and space as coterminous when it comes to higher-dimensions...

We do so for practicality, and a reflection of real world fiction. Literally no fiction in this fiction uses higher-dimensional time. The "Hypertime" from DC Comics you used as an example has nothing to do with time. It is instead a metatextual concept that treats the physical multiverse as being fictional, and thus all stories published by DC ever are all simultaneously canon, regardless of current "main canon" status and contradictions, because from the perspective of a "real being" looking down at fiction, all stories exist and can be read.

"You can't have your cake and eat it too you know. "

I don't get this analogy, what does it have to do with anything?
 
What the heck is this? Why are you posting this in public? Has Kavpeny not told us that this is not allowed and he strongly discourages us from doing so? If you have a problem with another staff member, tell that person or a bureaucrat in private. Don't post it in public.
 
Let's make/check this calculation/thread...

VenomElite's points

  • Infinite Speed: Movement outside of the influence of time, such as this profile and its speed description.
  • Immeasurable Speed: Movement outside the 3-Dimension concepts of distance and speed, no matter the which dimension said character is located in [4-D, 5-D, 6-D]
Moving within a timeless void is not a sufficient justification for receiving the infinite speed rating. This is a rather common plot convenience within fiction, such as after a universe has been destroyed, or when travelling outside of regular space-time, and is generally strongly contradicted by all regular speed feats
This statement must be taken note, as moving outside regular space-time is not justifiable for infinite speed if said feat is contradicted in any way.

  • Time is only +1 added temporal dimension (3-D with 4-D time), (4-D with 5-D time), etc
Living Tribunal's points

  • Immeasurable speed only applies to those beings who are defined by more than one temporal dimension (such as being stated/implied to be 4-D, 5-D, etc...), meaning their existance in that dimension is natural to them.
  • Statement for being beyond time is an absolute necessity for that character to be immeasurable in terms of speed.
  • Number of spatial and time dimensions is a factor in speed, and speed would increase infinitely for more temporal dimensions.
Arguments
According to this page, it states that any number that is divided by 0 is not an infinite value, but a value that is undefined. Meaning that if

  • Velocity = Distance/Time
  • Distance = X
  • Time = 0
    • The actual value for velocity cannot be measured, or quantified here. As for what this means, moving in a continuum that has its time completely removed is not Infinite speed, but actually Immeasurable speed, as the actual speed value cannot be measured. The only way that the value for Infinite speed can be derived here is for time itself to literally slow down to a halt when a character is moving.
    • Now I am not sure why Flash's Immeasurable speed was removed, considering that DarkLK said something about moving fast enough to go backwards/forwards in time cannot be quantified in terms of speed (hence Immeasurable speed rating), along with the fact that he is stated/shown to be beyond linear time.
  • Note that the term space-time would include both space and time, thus the increase in tier would increase the number of dimensions as well. Wouldn't this mean that if there is an increase in dimensions (from 4-D to 5-D), the character with the higher dimension would be able to manipulate the entirety of the 4-Dimensiona
But if a character is shown to move in a different temporal direction then Immeasurable speed is totally fine. Adding on different tiers of Immeasurable speed for each and every single time dimension is just a little absurd.
  • As for the comment above, a stated Tier for said higher-dimensional character (5-D vs 4-D) would mean that the 5-Dimensional character automatically outspeeds the 4-Dimensional character, assuming that said 5-D character can manipulate/encompass/transcend the entirety of 4-D space-time continuum altogether.
  • It also makes me wonder how we know that the said character has more than one temporal dimension? Fictions involving higher-dimensional charcters rarely, if ever state this. They only state the number of dimensions, at most.
    • As for what this means, we can only assume that fictions involving higher dimensions only involve a single time dimension (with space included), unless it is explicitly stated that the fiction in question has multiple time dimensions.
I will try to develop a solution for this issue if it is accepted, but it may require a blog post explanation to do so.
 
Now then, posting some stuff...

IMG 01321
1
IMG 0131
2
IMG 0130
3

Basically, for 1 and 2, it is possible to find out how many space-time continuums a character in question encompasses, or can bust. If a character encompasses more than a single space-time continuum in question, said character in question is always going to be faster than a character who can only travel from a single space-time continuum to another.

  • So for higher dimensional characters, find out how many said X dimensional space-time continuums he/she encompasses. A High 2-A character's speed would be > another High 2-A character by finding out how many more 4-Dimensional space-time multiverses he/she encompasses compared to the other character. Higher-dimensional characters follow this exact same pattern.
As for 3, if an object moves along a displayed line (1-D), or along a displayed plane (2-D), it is actually possible to measure the speed of said object in question moving along that line/plane.

  • EX 1: You can actually measure the velocity of an object moving across a line in (m/s). A 1-D object moving across a 1-D line can still be measured in terms of speed, because you are able to see that object moving across the line with your eyes (A point moving along a 1-D line at 20m/s still moves at 20m/s).
  • EX 2: You can actually measure the velocity of an object moving across a plane in (m/s). A 2-D object moving across a 2-D plane can still be measured in terms of speed, because you are able to see that object across the plane moving with your eyes (A square moving along a 2-D plane at 20m/s still moves at 20m/s).
 
@Matthew & LordXcano

It is an extremely important rule that the staff do their utmost to get along in public. If you have a problem, take it up in private, and preferably try to stay polite even there.

Also, again, the world is currently going to hell. Considering this, you should try to keep things in perspective, and not get upset with each other while arguing about fiction.

@All

My judgement is currently in a bad state due to stress, overwork, and divided attention, and now I am on an intense diet again on top of that, but do you think that it might be a good idea to simply state something like:

"Immeasurable speed: Characters that transcend linear time"

Without any explicit mentions of two-dimensional time? That way we might keep it more easily understood.
 
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