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There are a couple more things that I want to address regarding speed, especially objects that are able to move from one period in time to another.
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Standards for Immeasurable Speed
- Thread starter VenomElite
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Another issue that seemed to have popped up in mind is that it is possible for some attacks to travel forwards/backwards in time and hit a character that is forwards/backwards from the current time.
Otherwise, it is possible that characters may be able to forwards or backwards in time from their current time not via time manipulation, but via pure speed alone, although this may depend on whether the specific fiction here being in a relativistic setting, or in a non-relativistic setting.
Since it is not possible to measure the actual distance between two different points in time, what speed rating do we give for characters who are able to do the examples above?
Otherwise, it is possible that characters may be able to forwards or backwards in time from their current time not via time manipulation, but via pure speed alone, although this may depend on whether the specific fiction here being in a relativistic setting, or in a non-relativistic setting.
Since it is not possible to measure the actual distance between two different points in time, what speed rating do we give for characters who are able to do the examples above?
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You do not need to answer this question.
VenomElite believes that the above examples may qualify for Immeasurable speed, however...
VenomElite believes that the above examples may qualify for Immeasurable speed, however...
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@Matthew
A 2-space being can outspeed a 3-space being, that is what I meant.
Projective geometry is based on spatial dimensions. And the time is the 4th dimensions is a physics analogy specifically for a 3-space world. Now that is a PHYSICS analogy, not a projective geometric one.
That is exactly how a 2-time being would look at a 1-time being. It would look like a timeline that one can go trhrough in whatever way they want like, like reading through a story.
The analogy is- you cannot treat time in such a way that is is unseparable from space- which is something that is introduced by Eintine's relativity, and go on to use it for projective geometry. Before Einstine, time and spce were separate, and the same goes for projective geometry as it specifically deals with spatial dimensions and information.
A 2-space being can outspeed a 3-space being, that is what I meant.
Projective geometry is based on spatial dimensions. And the time is the 4th dimensions is a physics analogy specifically for a 3-space world. Now that is a PHYSICS analogy, not a projective geometric one.
That is exactly how a 2-time being would look at a 1-time being. It would look like a timeline that one can go trhrough in whatever way they want like, like reading through a story.
The analogy is- you cannot treat time in such a way that is is unseparable from space- which is something that is introduced by Eintine's relativity, and go on to use it for projective geometry. Before Einstine, time and spce were separate, and the same goes for projective geometry as it specifically deals with spatial dimensions and information.
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I agree his opinion on the topic would be appreciated greatly.Antvasima said:
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Well, it is quite complicated, so I would appreciate if you could browse through this thread, but TLT1 wants to change our definition for immeasurable speed to characters that transcend linear time, and have 2 or more temporal dimensions.
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Minimum requirement should be to simply be stated to be beyond normal time.Antvasima said:
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This has gotten quite ridiculous.
3-D (4-D) = Universe
5-D = Multiverse
Multiverse as in infinite universes/timelines. Again we can't get too technical. We will eventually lose our grasp away from fiticious potrayal.
It's as simple as it gets
4-D High Universe level being is above the infinite universe and it's timeline. If said character can travel anywhere in space or time instantly via travel speed. There speed is infinite.
5-D High Multiverse level being is above infinite timelines. Said being can travel across entire timelines with travel speed. That is immeasurable.
One timeline = infinite speed
Multiple timelines = immeasurable speed.
How does multiple temporal dimensions change this? A temporality is just the axis of movement through time. If there are two temporal dimensions and this being can travel through both of course its speed is immeasurable but incomparable to infinite timelines. Temporality is just the flow of time, a dimension is an axis of movement. Temporal dimension = movement through time).
Now explain in an easy to understand manner how this translates to multiple temporal dimensions. Because from a fictional standpoint, it's almost nonexistent. There's either one or multiple timelines, never multiple temporal dimensions. Come on, this isn't even debatable. Give me at least three distinct series that use multiple temporal dimensions in its cosmology.
In conclusion, immeasurable speed is fine the way it is, but I would like DontTalk and Kavpeny's input as well.
3-D (4-D) = Universe
5-D = Multiverse
Multiverse as in infinite universes/timelines. Again we can't get too technical. We will eventually lose our grasp away from fiticious potrayal.
It's as simple as it gets
4-D High Universe level being is above the infinite universe and it's timeline. If said character can travel anywhere in space or time instantly via travel speed. There speed is infinite.
5-D High Multiverse level being is above infinite timelines. Said being can travel across entire timelines with travel speed. That is immeasurable.
One timeline = infinite speed
Multiple timelines = immeasurable speed.
How does multiple temporal dimensions change this? A temporality is just the axis of movement through time. If there are two temporal dimensions and this being can travel through both of course its speed is immeasurable but incomparable to infinite timelines. Temporality is just the flow of time, a dimension is an axis of movement. Temporal dimension = movement through time).
Now explain in an easy to understand manner how this translates to multiple temporal dimensions. Because from a fictional standpoint, it's almost nonexistent. There's either one or multiple timelines, never multiple temporal dimensions. Come on, this isn't even debatable. Give me at least three distinct series that use multiple temporal dimensions in its cosmology.
In conclusion, immeasurable speed is fine the way it is, but I would like DontTalk and Kavpeny's input as well.
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What Sera has said, the minimal requirement for being 5th Dimensional, aside from statements, is scenes showcasing that you exist beyond a collection of infinite or so universes. Like Mr.Mxyzptlk, for instance:
One entity across infinite parallel realities. A being beyond the boundaries of any singular 4th Dimensional Space-Time Continuum, encompassing them all simultaneously. This is the Immeasurable Status of a 5th Dimensional being.
One entity across infinite parallel realities. A being beyond the boundaries of any singular 4th Dimensional Space-Time Continuum, encompassing them all simultaneously. This is the Immeasurable Status of a 5th Dimensional being.
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I have no idea why we're still arguing about whether or not being 5D makes you automatically Immeasurable. There is no argument here, 5D =/= Immeasurable is literally a scientific and mathematical fact. This isn't really up for debate.
"5-D High Multiverse level being is above infinite timelines. Said being can travel across entire timelines with travel speed. That is immeasurable."
I mean, I guess? It's not really a function of speed though, just direction. As has been pointed out many numerous times throughout the thread.
The only thing that should be a problem here is:
"We will eventually lose our grasp away from fiticious potrayal."
Which also is not a problem, as has been stated numerous times throughout the thread, because the only requirement for Immeasurable speed is a statement someone is beyond time. As I can personally attest to, many of our profiles that are Immeasurable already have such a statement. There would be next to 0 change here except now you need actual evidence someone is Immeasurable.
tl;dr
Stop arguing 5D = Immeasurable by default, it's a literal fact it isn't
Stop implying TLT is saying someone MUST say they are 2/3/whatever temporal dimensions to be Immeasurable, he has explained that isn't the case many many times already
"5-D High Multiverse level being is above infinite timelines. Said being can travel across entire timelines with travel speed. That is immeasurable."
I mean, I guess? It's not really a function of speed though, just direction. As has been pointed out many numerous times throughout the thread.
The only thing that should be a problem here is:
"We will eventually lose our grasp away from fiticious potrayal."
Which also is not a problem, as has been stated numerous times throughout the thread, because the only requirement for Immeasurable speed is a statement someone is beyond time. As I can personally attest to, many of our profiles that are Immeasurable already have such a statement. There would be next to 0 change here except now you need actual evidence someone is Immeasurable.
tl;dr
Stop arguing 5D = Immeasurable by default, it's a literal fact it isn't
Stop implying TLT is saying someone MUST say they are 2/3/whatever temporal dimensions to be Immeasurable, he has explained that isn't the case many many times already
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"I have no idea why we're still arguing about whether or not being 5D makes you automatically Immeasurable."
Because not everyone agrees with your stance on either and they've posted arguments for such.
"There is no argument here, 5D =/= Immeasurable is literally a scientific and mathematical fact. This isn't really up for debate."
I mean, it isn't for debate if you wanna ignore all potential definitions for 5D other than your own.
"Stop arguing 5D = Immeasurable by default, it's a literal fact it isn't."
You don't win an argument by telling people to stop arguing.
Just saying my piece. Also nobody is saying that TLT is saying that, we're saying that we don't need to add onto the current definition and that fictional 5D and up beings are Immeasurable.
Because not everyone agrees with your stance on either and they've posted arguments for such.
"There is no argument here, 5D =/= Immeasurable is literally a scientific and mathematical fact. This isn't really up for debate."
I mean, it isn't for debate if you wanna ignore all potential definitions for 5D other than your own.
"Stop arguing 5D = Immeasurable by default, it's a literal fact it isn't."
You don't win an argument by telling people to stop arguing.
Just saying my piece. Also nobody is saying that TLT is saying that, we're saying that we don't need to add onto the current definition and that fictional 5D and up beings are Immeasurable.
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"I mean, it isn't for debate if you wanna ignore all potential definitions for 5D other than your own."
There are no "other definitions". It's a mathematical and scientific concept, there is one definition. All others must be either misdefining it or wrong.
At the very least, to argue that 5D = Immeasurable means that you will also have to argue that:
There are no "other definitions". It's a mathematical and scientific concept, there is one definition. All others must be either misdefining it or wrong.
At the very least, to argue that 5D = Immeasurable means that you will also have to argue that:
- Relativity
- String Theory
- Gravity
- Projective geometry
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- Thread starter
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Pfft. String theory is just a '''theory'''. Relativity is a '''theory'''.
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By the way, there are multiple definitions of 5D as determined by multiple fictions, and our system doesn't follow the version you are proposing anyways. It is far more based on Reality - Fiction Interaction between layers of existence then anything remotely scientific.
Superstring Theory / M-Theory is not at all reflected by our system, and the definitions of Higher-Dimensions from a purely Geometrical viewpoint contradict String Theory, so you are literally arguing using contradictory scientific ideas. Also I don't see how either Relativity and Gravity would affect a 5Ds rating since fictional 5Ds as we rank them are generally far beyond those things.
Superstring Theory / M-Theory is not at all reflected by our system, and the definitions of Higher-Dimensions from a purely Geometrical viewpoint contradict String Theory, so you are literally arguing using contradictory scientific ideas. Also I don't see how either Relativity and Gravity would affect a 5Ds rating since fictional 5Ds as we rank them are generally far beyond those things.
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"Superstring Theory / M-Theory is not at all reflected by our system"
The "Explanation" tab on our tiering system explicitly meantions concepts from string theory twice.
"Also I don't see how either Relativity and Gravity would affect a 5Ds rating since fictional 5Ds as we rank them are generally far beyond those things."
Again, your argument is generalizing the opinions of certain authors to all authors. As you've stated before, your argument is based around how 5D is "portrayed in fiction" as if all fiction shares the same cosmology.
This change changes nothing except now you have to actually prove someone is Immeasurable (with a very low bar for evidence for that) rather than just assuming that's what it means because DC comics did it.
"Pfft. String theory is just a theory. Relativity is a theory."
Are you being sarcastic?
The "Explanation" tab on our tiering system explicitly meantions concepts from string theory twice.
"Also I don't see how either Relativity and Gravity would affect a 5Ds rating since fictional 5Ds as we rank them are generally far beyond those things."
Again, your argument is generalizing the opinions of certain authors to all authors. As you've stated before, your argument is based around how 5D is "portrayed in fiction" as if all fiction shares the same cosmology.
This change changes nothing except now you have to actually prove someone is Immeasurable (with a very low bar for evidence for that) rather than just assuming that's what it means because DC comics did it.
"Pfft. String theory is just a theory. Relativity is a theory."
Are you being sarcastic?
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String theory is a theory dude. It's in the name. Relativity is a theory developed by Albert Einstein himself. Still a theory.
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"The "Explanation" tab on our tiering system explicitly meantions concepts from string theory twice."
Yeah, but we obviously don't follow it 100%. In Real Life String-Theory, Higher-Dimensions are shrunken down to the plank-length.
Also, no, my argument is centered around how the changes you are suggesting are not reflected either in any fiction, and also don't match with our Tiering System. Which, as pointed out numerous times before, isn't scientific. You should know this.
And I agree, you have to prove someone is Immeasurable. We don't assume someone is 1-C for being "Multidimensional" or whatever without any proof. We don't have 1-C Scathach because some of her attacks mention 8-D shit randomly, or CW Mxy as High 2-A when he's clearly 5-B at a highball.
However, practically all major fictions that use Higher-Dimensions extensively do make you Immeasurable if you are 5D. So you are literally saying that we need to do something we already do.
Yeah, but we obviously don't follow it 100%. In Real Life String-Theory, Higher-Dimensions are shrunken down to the plank-length.
Also, no, my argument is centered around how the changes you are suggesting are not reflected either in any fiction, and also don't match with our Tiering System. Which, as pointed out numerous times before, isn't scientific. You should know this.
And I agree, you have to prove someone is Immeasurable. We don't assume someone is 1-C for being "Multidimensional" or whatever without any proof. We don't have 1-C Scathach because some of her attacks mention 8-D shit randomly, or CW Mxy as High 2-A when he's clearly 5-B at a highball.
However, practically all major fictions that use Higher-Dimensions extensively do make you Immeasurable if you are 5D. So you are literally saying that we need to do something we already do.
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I know what a scientific theory is Xcano. No worries. I especially don't need basic scientific definitions explained to me.
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Well, as I mentioned earlier, would stating that immeasurable speed simply means transcending linear time be an acceptable compromise for everybody involved, or is it a bad idea?
Also, is Sera correct in that 2-dimensional time is not a concept used within science?
Also, is Sera correct in that 2-dimensional time is not a concept used within science?
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Wait, did I say science? I meant fiction. And yes Ant, immeasurable meaning transcending linear time is enough to be immeasurable. Let's save non-linear time and extra temporal dimensions for the rare bunch and review those case-bye-case. It's our simplest approach.
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I think this compromise works. But yeah, we should wait on Kav and DT.
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Ye. ThisSera Loveheart said:
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Ok, so I have read through the first bunch of replies until the whole LordXcano debate thingy began.
Soooo... all in all I agree with TLT1 in many points, but let me get a bit more detailed:
So first I want to say that I find the definition of having multiple dimensions of time is in my opinion a bit badly worded. One can have a time dimension in 3 different ways, I think.
First one can have a time dimensions in the way we humans do, that is basically "moving" forward in time and only forward.
Second one can have a time dimension in the way of transcending it, by being able to freely move forward and backwards. So in the way Immeasurable characters have for at least 1 dimension of time.
Third one can actually inhabit extension in a time dimension. Like a hypercubus, but instead of having the 4th side go to an additional space dimension it goes through a time dimension (this one is definable, but kinda makes ones head hurt imagining if you ask me).
If you have multiple dimensions of time all in the first sense, then normal definitions of speed won't work for you anymore. Non the less I wouldn't give such a being Immeasurable speed in our chart, because it doesn't necessarily have the property of outspeeding those with normal speed (or at least I see no reason why it would have that property).
If you have dimensions of time in the second sense you are immeasurable. Like TLT1 said having more temporal dimensions would mean higher speed here, which is also intuitively true.
To give an example: Say you have two characters that view our universe as fiction, like a book. Those characters transcend our time, so they have immeasurable speed and 1 time dimension in second sense. But they also have 1 time dimension in the first sense. One can see that well due to the fact that in relation to each other they have a form of causality. If they have a conversion a statement will come before the reply to it for them. Essentially a subjective time exists.
If there now is a third character that also transcends this "subjective time" of the other two characters, that character would be immeasurable for them, just like the two are for humans.
All 3 of those beings have the same dimensionality, but since the third character has 2 dimensions in second sense, while the others have just 1 it is faster. It can, different than the other two, view the whole conversation the two characters are leading as if it happened at the same time and can, again different than the others (except they have higher temporal dimensional form of time travel) , technically go back in the subjective time of the other two characters and for example use its knowledge of the future of the conversation to change where it is going.
(Or to put it shorter: Human Metaworld Battler couldn't go to past metaworld events on his own. Bernkastel can. Bernkastel would certainly outspeed Metaworld Battler the same way Metaworld Battler would outspeed human world Battler)
If you have temporal dimensions in the third sense than usually you also have in the second, though a being that does not have that is also imaginable.
The importance of the distinction here is that as I said an immeasurable character usually transcends time and has an additional "subjective time" time dimension, but those don't necessarily count towards its dimensionality, because while it "moves" through those it doesn't have extension in those.
Only if the character has temporal dimensions in third sense it also counts towards its dimensionality, given that the dimension is essentially treated semi-spacial in this case.
That is usually the case if one transcends the plane of existence to a higher plane where timelines are objects or something similar.
Should also be obviously the case given that we don't treat humans as having 4 dimensions for moving through time either and is how we rank stuff anyways, but it had to be mentioned for completion sake.
So with all that said I think a better way to put it, than to say that characters with more time dimensions have higher speeds, would be that characters that transcend more time dimensions have higher speed.
Essentially transcending 0 is human, anything higher is immeasurable.
(Which is for the most cases TLT1 definition -1)
Given that this is our current definition of Immeasurable speed there are, as said by others, no changes to existing characters required at all.
All that would change is that it is specified that a character which transcends the "subjective time" of a character that is Immeasurable is actually faster than that character. Or as to say not all Immeasurable characters would be equally Immeasurable just like how Hyperversal characters are equally Hyperversal.
There was also the discussed if 5D = immeasurable it seems. I will be short on this: No.
5 spacial dimensions are not Immeasurable by default. That goes against basic mathematical definitions, is essentially arguing that rotating your point of view changes the speed of characters and goes directly against what DarkLK once specified which was also acknowledged by Kavpeny (See in the comments here for that). I also don't think that I have ever seen any character ranked based on that in a content revision thread.
I hope that more or less addressed everything that was discussed in the thread.
In regards to the compromise: If necessary I don't mind it, since the set of characters which have Immeasurable as speed is equivalent either way. The decision is technically only really important for vs-threads (since nobody should have a problem if it is mentioned how many time dimensions are transcended somewhere on the profile, given that this information would be a simple fact) so not specifying it at all is fine if necessary.
Soooo... all in all I agree with TLT1 in many points, but let me get a bit more detailed:
So first I want to say that I find the definition of having multiple dimensions of time is in my opinion a bit badly worded. One can have a time dimension in 3 different ways, I think.
First one can have a time dimensions in the way we humans do, that is basically "moving" forward in time and only forward.
Second one can have a time dimension in the way of transcending it, by being able to freely move forward and backwards. So in the way Immeasurable characters have for at least 1 dimension of time.
Third one can actually inhabit extension in a time dimension. Like a hypercubus, but instead of having the 4th side go to an additional space dimension it goes through a time dimension (this one is definable, but kinda makes ones head hurt imagining if you ask me).
If you have multiple dimensions of time all in the first sense, then normal definitions of speed won't work for you anymore. Non the less I wouldn't give such a being Immeasurable speed in our chart, because it doesn't necessarily have the property of outspeeding those with normal speed (or at least I see no reason why it would have that property).
If you have dimensions of time in the second sense you are immeasurable. Like TLT1 said having more temporal dimensions would mean higher speed here, which is also intuitively true.
To give an example: Say you have two characters that view our universe as fiction, like a book. Those characters transcend our time, so they have immeasurable speed and 1 time dimension in second sense. But they also have 1 time dimension in the first sense. One can see that well due to the fact that in relation to each other they have a form of causality. If they have a conversion a statement will come before the reply to it for them. Essentially a subjective time exists.
If there now is a third character that also transcends this "subjective time" of the other two characters, that character would be immeasurable for them, just like the two are for humans.
All 3 of those beings have the same dimensionality, but since the third character has 2 dimensions in second sense, while the others have just 1 it is faster. It can, different than the other two, view the whole conversation the two characters are leading as if it happened at the same time and can, again different than the others (except they have higher temporal dimensional form of time travel) , technically go back in the subjective time of the other two characters and for example use its knowledge of the future of the conversation to change where it is going.
(Or to put it shorter: Human Metaworld Battler couldn't go to past metaworld events on his own. Bernkastel can. Bernkastel would certainly outspeed Metaworld Battler the same way Metaworld Battler would outspeed human world Battler)
If you have temporal dimensions in the third sense than usually you also have in the second, though a being that does not have that is also imaginable.
The importance of the distinction here is that as I said an immeasurable character usually transcends time and has an additional "subjective time" time dimension, but those don't necessarily count towards its dimensionality, because while it "moves" through those it doesn't have extension in those.
Only if the character has temporal dimensions in third sense it also counts towards its dimensionality, given that the dimension is essentially treated semi-spacial in this case.
That is usually the case if one transcends the plane of existence to a higher plane where timelines are objects or something similar.
Should also be obviously the case given that we don't treat humans as having 4 dimensions for moving through time either and is how we rank stuff anyways, but it had to be mentioned for completion sake.
So with all that said I think a better way to put it, than to say that characters with more time dimensions have higher speeds, would be that characters that transcend more time dimensions have higher speed.
Essentially transcending 0 is human, anything higher is immeasurable.
(Which is for the most cases TLT1 definition -1)
Given that this is our current definition of Immeasurable speed there are, as said by others, no changes to existing characters required at all.
All that would change is that it is specified that a character which transcends the "subjective time" of a character that is Immeasurable is actually faster than that character. Or as to say not all Immeasurable characters would be equally Immeasurable just like how Hyperversal characters are equally Hyperversal.
There was also the discussed if 5D = immeasurable it seems. I will be short on this: No.
5 spacial dimensions are not Immeasurable by default. That goes against basic mathematical definitions, is essentially arguing that rotating your point of view changes the speed of characters and goes directly against what DarkLK once specified which was also acknowledged by Kavpeny (See in the comments here for that). I also don't think that I have ever seen any character ranked based on that in a content revision thread.
I hope that more or less addressed everything that was discussed in the thread.
In regards to the compromise: If necessary I don't mind it, since the set of characters which have Immeasurable as speed is equivalent either way. The decision is technically only really important for vs-threads (since nobody should have a problem if it is mentioned how many time dimensions are transcended somewhere on the profile, given that this information would be a simple fact) so not specifying it at all is fine if necessary.
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We are leaving the speed for Tier 11 as it is now, although it is possible to calculate the speed for lower-dimensional characters, correct?
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