Revision: Clarification and Coherence for Infinite Speed

[VYNxKryos]

Hello,


I want to clarify some inconsistencies in how Infinite Speed is handled on VSBW and propose an improvement to avoid contradictions.


Currently, the wiki distinguishes two requirements:

1. Traveling a finite distance in zero time.
2. Traveling an infinite distance in finite time.

Problem:

- In pure logic, a character able to travel an infinite distance in finite time should automatically be able to travel a finite distance in zero time, since the finite is included within the infinite.
- However, VSBW applies a practical logic: time must have a defined value, and some characters cannot perform the inverse, creating contradictions in profiles and scaling.

Proof via calculation:
Speed formula: v=d/tv = d / tv=d/t


- Infinite: d=∞,t=tf<∞⇒v=∞d = \infty, t = t_f < \infty \Rightarrow v = \inftyd=∞,t=tf<∞⇒v=∞
- Finite: d=df<∞,t→0⇒v→∞d = d_f < \infty, t \to 0 \Rightarrow v \to \inftyd=df<∞,t→0⇒v→∞

Since the character can already reach infinite speed, reducing the time to zero for a finite distance is trivial.


Proposed solution:

- Recognize pure logic, where infinity includes the finite.
- Clearly separate the two requirements to better represent each type of ability.
- Add a note on pure logic vs applied logic, so debates and scaling remain consistent.

Open question:
Should VSBW adopt this pure logic for Infinite Speed to avoid contradictions and better reflect characters’ abilities?

 

[DragoZeroNova]

This seems like a continuation of this thread
Instead of making a new thread like this, just post what you've put here in a comment on that thread or update that thread with this post. Even though that thread is staff only, as the OP of that thread, you don't need permission to comment.

 

[VYNxKryos]

This seems like a continuation of this thread
Instead of making a new thread like this, just post what you've put here in a comment on that thread or update that thread with this post. Even though that thread is staff only, as the OP of that thread, you don't need permission to comment.

I just updated the post with the changes. Could you please check and let me know if it’s correct now?
Thanks!

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I just updated the post with the changes. Could you please check and let me know if it’s correct now?
Thanks!

Uhh...What I meant was that you should take what you have written in this thread and move it to the staff thread.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Currently, the wiki distinguishes two requirements:

1. Traveling a finite distance in zero time.
2. Traveling an infinite distance in finite time.

Problem:

• In pure logic, a character able to travel an infinite distance in finite time should automatically be able to travel a finite distance in zero time, since the finite is included within the infinite.
• However, VSBW applies a practical logic: time must have a defined value, and some characters cannot perform the inverse, creating contradictions in profiles and scaling.

You're confusing the requirements as being mutually inclusive, as in to get infinite, you require both 1 and 2, when the page isn't asking that. The rating is instead an either/or function. Either travel an infinite distance in finite time or travel a finite distance in 0 time. As an example, Immortals from D&D have an infinite speed feat, for being able to fight in literal 0 time while Sonic has an infinite speed feat for crossing an infinite distance in finite time. Both are Infinite speed because of that and they aren't required to perform the other feat.

- Clearly separate the two requirements to better represent each type of ability.

I mean...

Able to travel any finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time

The or is very clear. Do one or the other.

 

[KLOL506]

This thread should be a Staff-Only thread, as it pertains to the Speed page and changing its contents.

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Planck69 @Elizhaa @Everything12

 

[Executor_N0]

I guess I understand what the person is trying to suggest, the idea of infinite speed being limited to range, that is, a character that can move certain meters at 0 time, but not infinitely many, or just a much larger value in general, so those who move only at 0 time without crossing infinite distance could be limited by range or something like that.

I don't know if there are any characters that are currently rated like that, but I'm unsure if it would need to change the classifications instead of just putting a note in characters whose infinite speed is limited in a way (Like, a character that somehow has infinite combat speed in melee combat, but not running speed).

 

[Agnaa]

I agree with Qawsed, I see no reason to take action over this.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Qawsed, I see no reason to take action over this.

Yes. I also agree with Qawsedf234.

 

[Qawsedf234]

characters that are currently rated like that,

Some TES characters have immeasurable combat speed without slower travel speed, but that could just be a byproduct of out of date profiles.

But barring weird ability limitations, if you're capable of moving at infinite speed there really wouldn't be distance limitations since at infinite velocity you can cross any distance in 0 time.

 

[Agnaa]

But barring weird ability limitations, if you're capable of moving at infinite speed there really wouldn't be distance limitations since at infinite velocity you can cross any distance in 0 time.

I disagree with this view actually.

The limit wouldn't be time, it would be energy exertion, which would presumably be expended by moving even in zero time. So I wouldn't be surprised for such limits to exist.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The limit wouldn't be time, it would be energy exertion, which would presumably be expended by moving even in zero time. So I wouldn't be surprised for such limits to exist.

The main issue is that if you can just dash forward with infinite speed, even for one action, you'd be able to cross an infinite distance due to how we take that speed value.

Endurance not being a to keep up with constant usage of speed is a seperate topic in my view.

 

[Agnaa]

The main issue is that if you can just dash forward with infinite speed, even for one action, you'd be able to cross an infinite distance due to how we take that speed value.

Endurance not being a to keep up with constant usage of speed is a seperate topic in my view.

I don't think we have to take the speed value that way. In that, I don't think an entity with infinite speed that is distance-limited would be barred from receiving an infinite speed rating.

 

[DontTalkDT]

This seems less about speed than about stamina.
Generally I don't think we give everyone with infinite speed infinite stamina, so I think we already handle this decently.

 

[VYNxKryos]

Hello, thanks for all your replies.


I understand the current stance that Infinite Speed is treated as an “either/or” requirement, but I still think this approach creates an inherent inconsistency.


Here’s why:


- In pure logic, being able to cross an infinite distance in finite time should automatically include crossing a finite distance in zero time, since the finite is contained within the infinite. Treating these two requirements as completely separate allows characters with very different feats to be rated under the same “Infinite Speed” tier, which creates confusion in scaling.
- Several admins here mentioned endurance, energy expenditure, or limitations imposed by context. I completely agree those factors exist, but they are not speed itself. Mixing these external limitations into the definition of Infinite Speed blurs the category and leads to contradictions.
- From a scaling perspective, this means that two characters with the same “Infinite Speed” rating may in practice have very different capabilities, which undermines the purpose of standardized tiers.

Proposed solution:
Clarify Infinite Speed into two subcategories to avoid contradictions:

1. Absolute Infinite Speed (pure logic): Characters who can perform both requirements logically (since infinity includes the finite).
2. Conditional Infinite Speed (practical feats): Characters who demonstrate one requirement but are limited by stamina, energy, or context.

This way, we preserve the current structure but add a clear distinction that simplifies future scaling discussions and prevents confusion.


What do you think? Wouldn’t this kind of clarification make the wiki more consistent in the long term?

 

[KLOL506]

Please speak in English.

 

[VYNxKryos]

Please speak in English.

thank you

 

[KLOL506]

Hello, thanks for all your replies.


I understand the current stance that Infinite Speed is treated as an “either/or” requirement, but I still think this approach creates an inherent inconsistency.


Here’s why:


- In pure logic, being able to cross an infinite distance in finite time should automatically include crossing a finite distance in zero time, since the finite is contained within the infinite. Treating these two requirements as completely separate allows characters with very different feats to be rated under the same “Infinite Speed” tier, which creates confusion in scaling.
- Several admins here mentioned endurance, energy expenditure, or limitations imposed by context. I completely agree those factors exist, but they are not speed itself. Mixing these external limitations into the definition of Infinite Speed blurs the category and leads to contradictions.
- From a scaling perspective, this means that two characters with the same “Infinite Speed” rating may in practice have very different capabilities, which undermines the purpose of standardized tiers.

Proposed solution:
Clarify Infinite Speed into two subcategories to avoid contradictions:

1. Absolute Infinite Speed (pure logic): Characters who can perform both requirements logically (since infinity includes the finite).
2. Conditional Infinite Speed (practical feats): Characters who demonstrate one requirement but are limited by stamina, energy, or context.

This way, we preserve the current structure but add a clear distinction that simplifies future scaling discussions and prevents confusion.


What do you think? Wouldn’t this kind of clarification make the wiki more consistent in the long term?

Yeah nah this ain't happening. Too much convolution for too little benefit.

@Agnaa @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Ultima_Reality

 

[DontTalkDT]

That distinction makes no sense to me, as it's not a speed-like distinction. It separates speed on the not speed-like criteria of stamina: Can the character perform the feat of going finite distance in 0 time arbitrarily often?
We also wouldn't have separate AP tiers for being able to destroy a mountain and being able to perform a mountain destroying attack infinite times.

In other words, the distinction on the profiles already exists, but it's expressed via the additional rating of the stamina section, as we have two degrees of freedom here, one of which isn't speed-like.

 

[VYNxKryos]

That distinction makes no sense to me, as it's not a speed-like distinction. It separates speed on the not speed-like criteria of stamina: Can the character perform the feat of going finite distance in 0 time arbitrarily often?
We also wouldn't have separate AP tiers for being able to destroy a mountain and being able to perform a mountain destroying attack infinite times.

In other words, the distinction on the profiles already exists, but it's expressed via the additional rating of the stamina section, as we have two degrees of freedom here, one of which isn't speed-like.

Thanks for your clarification regarding stamina vs speed. I fully understand that the ability to perform a finite-distance-in-zero-time feat repeatedly falls under endurance rather than pure speed. Your point about two degrees of freedom is technically correct.


However, I believe there is still a practical issue for the wiki:


- On the Infinite Speed page, these feats are presented under Speed, which visually and conceptually suggests that there are fundamentally different types of infinite speed. This creates confusion for contributors and readers, and may lead to inconsistent scaling decisions.
- While the stamina section technically covers repetition limits, not all profiles log this consistently, and debates often refer only to the Speed section. Leaving this distinction implicit does not prevent misunderstandings.
- A simple clarifying note on the Speed page (for example: “The difference between finite-distance-in-zero-time and infinite-distance-in-finite-time feats is addressed under Stamina and does not indicate separate speed tiers”) would already resolve these contradictions.

In short, your reasoning about endurance is valid, but practical clarity for scalling and reader comprehension requires an explicit clarification. This would make the page more consistent and prevent recurring debates about whether a character truly has a different kind of Infinite Speed.


Would it be possible to add such a note to the Infinite Speed page?

 

[Qawsedf234]

This would make the page more consistent and prevent recurring debates about whether a character truly has a different kind of Infinite Speed.

Does this problem actually exists or is it a theoretical problem? Because either fear gives the same value and the characters who do them are legitimately as fast as each other. It just means that at most one would tire out faster than the other, but that again has nothing to do with speed.

 

[VYNxKryos]

Does this problem actually exists or is it a theoretical problem? Because either fear gives the same value and the characters who do them are legitimately as fast as each other. It just means that at most one would tire out faster than the other, but that again has nothing to do with speed.

I fully understand that endurance and stamina are the primary factors for repetition limits of finite-distance-in-zero-time feats, and that this does not alter the fundamental classification of speed.


However, the practical issue persists: the Infinite Speed page groups these feats under Speed, which can create confusion regarding what type of speed a character actually demonstrates. This is particularly relevant given the multiple speed statements in VSBW, such as combat speed, attack speed, and movement speed. Without clarification, readers may conflate feats like crossing infinite distance in finite time with instantaneous attacks or actions.


A simple note clarifying that repetition limits are covered under Stamina and do not constitute separate speed tiers would maintain technical accuracy while improving clarity. This distinction would allow scaling discussions to remain consistent across the wiki and prevent misinterpretations regarding Infinite Speed

 

[KLOL506]

I fully understand that endurance and stamina are the primary factors for repetition limits of finite-distance-in-zero-time feats, and that this does not alter the fundamental classification of speed.


However, the practical issue persists: the Infinite Speed page groups these feats under Speed, which can create confusion regarding what type of speed a character actually demonstrates. This is particularly relevant given the multiple speed statements in VSBW, such as combat speed, attack speed, and movement speed. Without clarification, readers may conflate feats like crossing infinite distance in finite time with instantaneous attacks or actions.


A simple note clarifying that repetition limits are covered under Stamina and do not constitute separate speed tiers would maintain technical accuracy while improving clarity. This distinction would allow scaling discussions to remain consistent across the wiki and prevent misinterpretations regarding Infinite Speed

Again, this has nothing to do with speed moreso than stamina, and how many characters are you going to find out there tiring out like that for such a feat to make it a one-size-fits-all rule?

 

[Agnaa]

I have the same view as before.

 

[KLOL506]

Thread seems to have been rejected in overwhelming fashion. Should just be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.