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SSB revision part 2: Universal Boogaloo

ShiroyashaGinSan

ShiroyashaGinSan

VS Battles
Retired
7,164
1,066
Previous thread.

The old one is really getting out of hand and people, including myself, are insulting each other. Now, we need to calm down and restart our compulsion back to normal. And also discuss.

Low 2-C justification:

Tabuu is able to reconstruct the worlds he dragged and likely do the same thing when gunship is fired.

Both Tabuu and MH are called as Masters to subspace and WoT respectively.

They both have connection to the reality and exists in a place close to it.

Tabuu officially stated that he can control the entirety of the Subspace.
 
That is because he or should i say Ganon and guys ****** up in a place he can't reach. He can immediately reconstruct them when he drag them unlike IZ who takes some time to have a power. He will get a win if Mario and guys didn't destroy the gunship. He will do the same thing for the universe itself, surely. That is his goal.
 
Asuka the Demonic Empress said:
Did we even play the same game? Tabuu literally shot the cannon and it did nothing.
Click to expand...
Well it did something, but presumably the cannon has to either be shot multiple times or it takes some time to get all the energy spreading. Either way it basically was only a single planet it was consuming, not anything greater like a universe. The bubbles clearly 'peaked' when growing in size so they don't expand indefinitely.
 
They didn't use the main Cannon. It's supposed to create to make a holes made by the bombs absolutely irrelevant, sucking entire dimension in.
 
Here's the blog post that was in the OP of last thread, pointing out why many common reasons for the Low 2-C rating are wrong.
 
Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
They didn't use the main Cannon. It's supposed to create to make a holes made by the bombs absolutely irrelevant, sucking entire dimension in.
Click to expand...
Is there some other cannon? Because they most definitely use the main cannon in this scene .
 
@Asuka No need for combative comments like that. That's just uncalled for.
 
Yeah but it looks like it's coming to a close, all the arguments for low 2-C are getting worn out.
 
Master Hand and those who scale may be higher due to creating stages which have stars in them.
 
Which one in the first game? If you mean the opening cutscene where MH snaps its fingers and the toys come to life that wouldn't be more than building level in all likelihood.

Any stages with stars would bump him up to tier 4 though.
 
Kind of. Quite a few people seemed to agree that scaling to non-fighter trophies is no good, but the people arguing for CT scaling just dropped it and argued other points instead.
 
Creating pocket realms with stars is High 4-C. If this downgrade goes through that could be a good Tier.
 
Many of the things in the post is incorrect.


1) Like FD, Subspace is also close to real world, and FD is outside of the SSB universe.


2) Everyone agreed that Sonic is a plothole.


3) Master Hand has a dimensional travel. He can go to FD, SSB world and Subspace freely. I talked about that in last thread.


4) Unless SSB is 8-D, I don't know what is he talking about the rules of death. And why does it apply to the ones who originated from SSB world? Also Sakurai stated that if it is incapacitated, not dead.


5) They were at the center of the labyrinth. When Tabuu was defeated, the fictional labyrinth was destroyed, bringing back the reconstructed worlds dragged off in the process, alongside the smashers. Also they aren't just rifts. They also destroy like the ROBs and other monsters and the whole island gunship was made of.


6) Shaking the whole dimension isn't hax.


That is just one fire the cannon used. The synopsis of the EE in the official Nintendo website directly stated that it is going to suck the whole world whole. Heck, we even saw it was expanding while they are fighting each other.

Òé┐ÒâûÒâ╝Òü»þäíµòÁÒü«µêªÚùÿÕèøÒéƵîüÒüúÒüªÒüäÒüƒÒü¿Þ¿ÇÒüêÒéïÒÇé - It says that Tabuu has an infinite fighting power.

Even if you ignored what I said, God tiers should be at least 3-C. Samus' trophy said that SSB world has galaxy.
 
Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
Many of the things in the post is incorrect.
2) Everyone agreed that Sonic is a plothole.

4) Unless SSB is 8-D, I don't know what is he talking about the rules of death. And why does it apply to the ones who originated from SSB world? Also Sakurai stated that if it is incapacitated, not dead.

7. That is just one fire the cannon used. The synopsis of the EE in the official Nintendo website directly stated that it is going to suck the whole world whole. Heck, we even saw it was expanding while they are fighting each other.

Òé┐ÒâûÒâ╝Òü»þäíµòÁÒü«µêªÚùÿÕèøÒéƵîüÒüúÒüªÒüäÒüƒÒü¿Þ¿ÇÒüêÒéïÒÇé - It says that Tabuu has an infinite fighting power.

Even if you ignored what I said, God tiers should be at least 3-C. Samus' trophy said that SSB world has galaxy.
Click to expand...
2. I don't- Tabuu has three durability feats and two of them involve characters at Sonic's level, the third is a higher-tiered character (Master Hand) that is seemingly weakened to an unknown amount. For any other franchise this would be a clear sign Tabuu needs to be considered the level of the weaker guys since not only did he have to block one of them (clearly not multiple OOM stronger), the one he didn't block damaged him. He's then fought a battle in gameplay against more people at Sonic's level to boot- and they win.

4. It's simple, you take enough damage, you're a trophy. What that damage is seems more unclear but it's how Smash-verse seems to operate.

7. The synopsis can say whatever it likes, if it doesn't match up at all with what you're visually given, you go with the visuals. Perhaps it would've sucked the world dry had the gun not been destroyed? It could be used multiple times after all while the bombs were one-shots. Enough blasts and the entire world would've been absorbed.

Infinite fighting power is a laugh though- it's not shown in the slightest in the game.
 
If you're talking about Ganon one, he got one-shotted immediately. Sonic is a plothole. He's just crammed in because he was confirmed in later production. Nintendo never intended to be there. It's never supposed him to destroy the wings, both by the Nintendo and the plot. And MH is Low 2-C at least for now and you can't be infinitely weaker just because you have wounds and concussion here and there.

Those who are on the outside of the SSB universe have consistently shown that they can be trophies. Master Hand, Crazy Hand, Master Core and Tabuu, all of them. It's just that those who are outside it can be turned a toy as well.

Johnny Joestar is a High 3-A even if he never shown any cosmic power or fit in to visuals for that matter, and it's just in synopsis of the ability. Fiamma of the Right is also the same. Or any tier 0 for that matter. And these are description within the story and Tabuu even stated by Nintendo, even the infinite power. It will suck because that is the main plot point and you just can't say the major plot point is false. That's like saying Heaven Ascension DIO's 2-A isn't correct because he's never shown anything like Multiverse+ feats and it's just a plot point.
 
Again, keep the condescending nature out of this. That goes for everyone.

We can have a discussion without needing to be rude or come at each others throats.
 
@Reinhard You don't need to show cosmic power or visuals to be universal. Johnny has a blatant statement of infinite energy, something MH and Tabuu have never had. It also has a blatant feat of being stronger than another ability which has a blatant statement of having infinite durability.

HA DIO has shown superiority to multiple universal+ stands, and demonstrated erasing someone's existence over an infinite multiverse. When someone already has this many feats of a universal and above level, the blatant statement of "overwriting the entire JoJo reality" becomes pretty easy to accept.

Compare that evidence to MH having some vague statements of being the "source of creation" or being "the link between fiction and reality". You're comparing one character with blatant infinite statements and feats, and another character with half a dozen blatantly universal and above statements and feats, to a character with two vague "maybe he creates things" statements and some feats that rarely go above city block level.

MH/Tabuu being universal isn't a main plot point. You usually don't even need to be more than Tier 6 to threaten a world for a story's plot.
 
Except I just posted blatant infinite power statement. And can control the entirety of the Subspace is quite blatant as well. And Funny's Love Train doesn't have infinite power.

MiH is only Low 2-C with Time Manipulation. Heck, it was C-Moon Pucci you fought. Not MiH. Everything else is 8-B+ at best. That's like saying Hiiragi from Shinsenkan should be 2-B for being par with Amakasu even if he's just 5-B with everything else other than Ragnarok. Funny one, he did it off-screen. And rewriting thing is a plot point and never shown.

Except the main plot point is that he is threatening the entire SSB universe and used MH to do so. CyberWitch's statements he posted on the last thread about gunship is High 3-A as well. He is sucking the dimension in its entirety.
 
Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
If you're talking about Ganon one, he got one-shotted immediately. Sonic is a plothole. He's just crammed in because he was confirmed in later production. Nintendo never intended to be there. It's never supposed him to destroy the wings, both by the Nintendo and the plot. And MH is Low 2-C at least for now and you can't be infinitely weaker just because you have wounds and concussion here and there.
Those who are on the outside of the SSB universe have consistently shown that they can be trophies. Master Hand, Crazy Hand, Master Core and Tabuu, all of them. It's just that those who are outside it can be turned a toy as well.

Johnny Joestar is a High 3-A even if he never shown any cosmic power or fit in to visuals for that matter, and it's just in synopsis of the ability. Fiamma of the Right is also the same. Or any tier 0 for that matter. And these are description within the story and Tabuu even stated by Nintendo, even the infinite power. It will suck because that is the main plot point and you just can't say the major plot point is false. That's like saying Heaven Ascension DIO's 2-A isn't correct because he's never shown anything like Multiverse+ feats and it's just a plot point.
Click to expand...
Actually, Ganon was still 'alive' and un-trophied until he slammed into one of Master Hand's chains- which broke and immediately trophied him as shown by the flash of light that consumes his body. Hurled him back yes, oneshot it did not since it was the impact and touch of the chain that 'killed' him as it were.

You're relying on literal headcanon to say Sonic can't hurt Tabuu if that's what you mean by plot hole. Unless someone with WoG powers specifically said otherwise- Sonic fits into the plot fine. He ran up to Tabuu, twice, and busted his wings before Tabuu could get his attack off. This contradicts nothing in Smash itself. Only how an entirely unrelated entity views the series.

What you said about Master Hand and "infinitely weaker" means literally nothing to me because it's solely based on the rating an internet site assigned him and how that same site interprets his powers. Yes, he could absolutely make a universe and still be harmed by lesser attacks, fiction allows this to be entirely possible and insisting otherwise is foolish in the extreme given that seemingly everyone who makes X on this site has showings of taking damage from lesser assaults.

Tabuu is, constantly, fighting people who are not Master Hand and losing. He does not effortlessly let Ganon bounce off him (Infinitely above right? Even wounded wouldn't matter?) but has to blast him with some semblance of effort. Later when everyone shows up, he has to gather his power, charge up, and then unleash an attack rather than just snapping his fingers and ending their existence (Infinite, yes?). And then, he was accosted by a Hedgehog that in Smash is explicitly not lightspeed unless in Super form and said Hedgehog broke through one wing, circled back and then broke the other- instead of being soundly rebuffed for even attempting such a thing (Infinite difference). Then, after all of that, Tabuu is beaten by a group of warriors who collectively in Smash-verse are somewhere in the vicinity of maybe building? City block? MCB? (...Infinite?)

You can only call PIS so much before you have to simply admit your way of rating these things is wrong. Perhaps Tabuu defeating Master Hand is the PIS?
 
Sorry what was the infinite power statement? I must have missed it.

Love train doesn't have infinite power but it has infinite dimensional barriers, which should logically take infinite power to break through.

Overpowering a bunch of 8-Bs then overpowering 3 universals doesn't mean you're only 8-B. Rewriting is a plot point but because it's backed up by multiple universal and above feats it's pretty reasonable to take as fact.

Is it really the whole "universe" Tabuu is stated to be threatening? Or were more vague statements like "everything", "reality", and "dimension" used? Also, "threaten" is still a pretty vague statement. Does that mean it's just a threat to any life in the universe, but actually only star level? That's why DIO's statement of "overwrite" is much better.

Also, could you repost the High 3-A gunship statements?
 
Throwing someone from stratosphere (ignoring the science stuff) doesn't kill that someone while he is in mid-air. It needs some sort of impact to kill. It even seems like Attack Reflection rather than dura feat as well. Ganon didn't even hit him.

Sonic just busted into the center of the fictional labyrinth, the same labyrinth that brawlers took long time to get in, ignored any obstacle in the labyrinth (you took them on, not him), he didn't show up at the stairs and just straight up broke the wings MH can't even do. That's DC level of PIS. Many DC and Marvel PIS fits in to the story very well but if you use common sense it's just ridiculous. I'm looking at you, Barbados and Hawkgirl.

Fighting is MH's hobby. It's just for fun of it. He loves them thus he doesn't kill them and just having fun with them instead. SSB world is specifically made to be a battlefield after all.

Tabuu barely recognized Ganon and swatted him like a fly. Othinus took effort to Touma even with their dimensional difference being 8 dimension higher. He one-shotted immediately. He used off Wave. Nintendo stated that as long as he has wings he has infinite power. When Sonic destroyed it, he was tremendously weakened. I'll post the statement.
 
ÒüôÒéîÒüîÒüéÒéïÚÖÉÒéèÒÇüÒé┐ÒâûÒâ╝Òü»þäíµòÁÒü«µêªÚùÿÕèøÒéƵîüÒüúÒüªÒüäÒüƒÒü¿Þ¿ÇÒüêÒéïÒÇé - With this (Wings), Tabuu has the infinite fighting power.

Not to mention most of his universal statements only apply to the winged Tabuu.
 
"Ganondorf made the Subspace Bomb factory self-destruct in order to draw this ultimate weapon out from Subspace. It's capable of infinitely rending space, and its firepower is greater than that of any weapon. It exists to draw all of this world into Subspace, but the last-ditch efforts of the fighters might prevent this." - Subspace Gunship

They are universals by either Hax or one attack. Not to mention RO negates tiers. LT is just a barrier connected to infinite universes. It doesn't mean much when it comes to Durability.
 
Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
Throwing someone from stratosphere (ignoring the science stuff) doesn't kill that someone while he is in mid-air. It needs some sort of impact to kill. It even seems like Attack Reflection rather than dura feat as well. Ganon didn't even hit him.
Sonic just busted into the center of the fictional labyrinth, the same labyrinth that brawlers took long time to get in, ignored any obstacle in the labyrinth (you took them on, not him), he didn't show up at the stairs and just straight up broke the wings MH can't even do. That's DC level of PIS. Many DC and Marvel PIS fits in to the story very well but if you use common sense it's just ridiculous. I'm looking at you, Barbados and Hawkgirl.

Fighting is MH's hobby. It's just for fun of it. He loves them thus he doesn't kill them and just having fun with them instead. SSB world is specifically made to be a battlefield after all.

Tabuu barely recognized Ganon and swatted him like a fly. Othinus took effort to Touma even with their dimensional difference being 8 dimension higher. He one-shotted immediately. He used off Wave. Nintendo stated that as long as he has wings he has infinite power. When Sonic destroyed it, he was tremendously weakened. I'll post the statement.
Click to expand...
If you punch someone into the stratosphere, then yes, the initial hit kills them- not waiting for them to hit the ground. In fact the difference in the energies you experience for that scenario is mind-bogglingly different. If I uppercut someone 300 meters up, you bet your ass they're dead from the uppercut, not the 300 meter crash-landing that follows.

You have no idea how Sonic arrived, zero. He is unexplained- that does not make him a Plot Hole. A Plot Hole is something not adding up to the internal logic presented in the work. A Loose End Sonic is, a Deus Ex Machine he is, a Plot Hole he is not.

And yes, he broke the wings, which a weakened MH didn't do because Tabuu tossed up a barrier. Perhaps Tabuu needs the barrier to block MH-tier opponents? Also quite viable and matches the cinematic showings he has. It puzzles me how so many explanations are available for the events that occur- yet you seemingly want to tier based on only one that is not proven anymore than the others. If two possible explanations exist, you can't conclusively say either is true.

In the future please do not put so much headcanon into your posts, it needlessly lengthens them and doesn't provide substance. Thanos defeated Ganon, swatting him like a fly means nothing. You have no idea how long the Smashers took to get through the labyrinth so insisting it was long is pointless.

Given how often Smash descriptions apparently use infinite for non-infinite things, I wouldn't put much value in the trophy descriptions.
 
And why he use full power to a fly? Homura Akemi and Othinus has some time dealing with their 3-D enemies albeit with more talking than Tabuu. Fiction tends to show the main boss' strength by swatting around. *Cough* Digimon, Bravely *Cough* That doesn't mean they are in the same league.

Yeah, they took at least some time. Not just that they started most of their adventures from scratch, they're fighting themselves as well. While they're doing something in their Adventure, ROB can fly around the world, Ganon can build a gunship, and Bowser can do both. Tabuu was surrounded by the labyrinth. He's in the downright center of it. All of the reconstructed worlds was on him, I see no other way to get there. Which makes it more PIS.

Because Attack Reflection or Forcefield Creation is probably better. The way you hurt him in the boss battle and the block against MH and Ganon is completely different. You can punch him in the face and can't for the other because barrier is in the way.

None of it is headcanons, i'I just digging the evidence and the best way I can.

Even if I ignored the trophy, Nintendo statements have a bunch of universal statements.
 
"Source of creation" =/= created the universe

And like i said a month ago, Classic Mode is canon, and smash bros charas should be tier 2 if you consider throphy descriptions to be accurate.

You cant have your cake and eat it.


Repost from the other thread.
 
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