SS Arc finale, but uh, wait a sec... (Ichigo vs Toshiro)

[ReaperAndBlues]

Since Bleach matchups suck when it comes to crossverse fights, how about a fight in-verse?

Both Soul Society Arc keys will be used.

Speed unequalized and both start in Shikai (well Ichigo doesn't have a choice lmao)

Starting distance is 10m

Battle takes place on Sokyoku Hill.

Number One: 4

The Cooler (pun intended) Douma: 1

Aizen gives them both the theme song stopping treatment (incon):

 

[Naeblis495]

Toshiro is cooked if Ichigo go bankai because of the big speed diff. Hell, he might be cooked if he get hit by a shikai GT.

And Zangetsu better stay out of it, otherwise Toshiro is cooked 3 times.

SS Toshiro's kit is kinda ass compared to the many techniques he showed in the arrancar arc.

If we allowed Toshiro's toolkit he showcased in the arrancar arc , he would already have better chances to catch Ichigo off guard and end the fight before being stat gapped or MAYBE even last long enough for Ichigo to exhaust himself with his baby bankai(very unlikely).

But i'm still voting Ichigo either way. His wincon is easier to achieve : just bumrush the ice toddler and overwhelm him. It's not like Toshiro would outskill him in any capacity.

Edit : also forgot Ichigo heat manip with GT(enough to vape earth and rocks) and baseline shikai zangetsu heat aura. So not only Ichigo can stat gap him, he also counter him. Toshiro SUPER cooked.

 

[AppleLord]

Ichigo blitz as hard as Aizen did him.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I’m struggling to see what Toshiro can even do here. Shikai claps from what I can see.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

I’m struggling to see what Toshiro can even do here. Shikai claps from what I can see.

Well assuming he has his abilities from the Arrancar arc, he's vastly more versatile, hell, he's more versatile than Ichigo at this point. Although, this probably seems like it'd just be a decisive victory, not a stomp, but a surefire win.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

The issue with Toshiro’s SS key which makes this battle ridiculously tough for him is that it doesn’t take into account his Bankai amp which the next arc showed to be a bigger amp than Ichigo’s Bankai and even Mask amps…simply because the first time his Bankai used was against the main antagonist who also one shotted Ichigo

If we don’t take the Bankai amp into account then Ichigo has a 2x AP advantage and a 5x speed advantage which sounds like a decisive victory on paper

But Ichigo’s speed actually gets hard countered by Bankai Toshiro’s flight and ridiculous 7+ mile range/AOE considering this fight takes place in the soul society meaning Ichigo can’t fly. Toshiro in character always takes advantage of his Bankai’s flight and mobility, so Ichigo’s only chance of hit Toshiro is with Getsuga’s which would be easier to avoid the further away Toshiro is.

An ‘only’ 2x AP/Dura advantage + Ichigo’s lack of resistance to freezing and cold temps means Toshiro can actually wear him down, and Ichigo’s poor stamina in Bankai specifically in this arc as well as the fact that his speed dramatically slows down to the point that Byakuya who he was blitzing from long range was starting to overwhelm him in melee leads me to believe Toshiro takes this.

If White takes over, the speed and stamina get recovered and even amped but his only way to hit Toshiro would still be Getsuga’s from range so it just becomes a waiting game. Can Ichigo + White outlast Toshiro’s ice flowers, esp when Ichigo would quickly stop white to try and win himself?

But if we take into account techniques he should have access too like Sennen Hyoro which is an >8x AP amp though it takes prep time, Tenso Jurin (a tech we 100% know Toshiro has access to in this key) which canonically amps his reiatsu to the point where Starrk took notice and wondered if Kyoraku could get that strong (not saying he’s a strong as he is in FKT, but applying that level of an amp to this version of Toshiro) and HH which has a massive AOE and superior to Sennen Hyoro and converts that Tenso Jurin amp into AP….I actually think Toshiro takes it

 

[AnonymousBlank]

When does Toshiro show a better amp with his Bankai than Ichigo’s during the Arrancar Invasion? The only thing he ever did that was impressive was one tap Res Luppi which needed plenty of prep.

Toshiro’s AoE is dookie. Kira was chilling 20m away, let alone 7 miles. Even when he was stronger and could better control his power while using Tenso Jurin in FKT, his AoE was only good by using Hyoten Hyakkaso. The chibi isn’t gonna use TJ in Bankai and it’s useless in Shikai.

Ichigo uses flash step mid air against Byakuya on multiple occasions so I don’t understand this “no flying” thing.

Ichigo taking damage from his Bankai doesn’t matter. Not only does he not need it, it lets him end the fight instantly.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Ichigo FRA.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

When does Toshiro show a better amp with his Bankai than Ichigo’s during the Arrancar Invasion? The only thing he ever did that was impressive was one tap Res Luppi which needed plenty of prep.

Ichigo with his Bankai and Mask amp stacked onto each other couldn’t take out a 1 Armed Base Grimmjow who’s not even considered Espada level anymore while spamming Black Getsuga’s. Toshiro tanking Res Luppi’s 8x AP amped attack and one tapping him with a move that isn’t even his best is more impressive than Ichigo failing to put down a nerfed Base Grimmjow

A much stronger Bankai Masked Ichigo was getting perception blitzed by R1 Ulq and his full power Getsuga did 0 damage to Ulq. A regular energy lance was also said to be able to one shot decapitate him

Bankai Toshiro was relative to or faster than Res Halibel, is implied to have the physical strength to cut through her Hierro (she dodged rather than trying to tank his slash), and he was able to block her Cascada which is her strongest move, and should be her equivalent to Desgarron, Lanza, Respira, Los Lobos etc, took Ceros from her and was fine etc. All before using TJ which amped him to the point where Starrk was excited to fight that level of power and considered it more impressive than Soi Fon’s Bankai which has slightly superiority to Respira which in itself is stronger than R2 Lanza

Toshiro’s AoE is dookie. Kira was chilling 20m away, let alone 7 miles. Even when he was stronger and could better control his power while using Tenso Jurin in FKT, his AoE was only good by using Hyoten Hyakkaso. The chibi isn’t gonna use TJ in Bankai and it’s useless in Shikai.

Izuru still got hit, and that was a Toshiro who was trying to restrict his range and focus his attacks on Gin

Ichigo uses flash step mid air against Byakuya on multiple occasions so I don’t understand this “no flying” thing.

That’s not flying. Compare that vs how Ichigo fights Grimmjow all 3 times. Ichigo could never continuously stay in the air, he always had to land even with Flash Step keeping him airborne more than normal

Ichigo taking damage from his Bankai doesn’t matter. Not only does he not need it, it lets him end the fight instantly.

They both scale the same in Base/Shikai. Getsuga and a few of Toshiro’s techniques hit harder than their normal AP. Ichigo’s Bankai is a 2x amp. Not one shot worthy. And Ichigo spamming Getsuga’s from afar while Toshiro has free form of flight and maneuverability in the air which neutralizes the speed advantage isn’t a likely win con due to Ichigo’s poor stamina in this key specifically

Him not resisting ice or cold temp attacks also doesn’t help

 

[Naeblis495]

Ichigo with his Bankai and Mask amp stacked onto each other couldn’t take out a 1 Armed Base Grimmjow who’s not even considered Espada level anymore while spamming Black Getsuga’s. Toshiro tanking Res Luppi’s 8x AP amped attack and one tapping him with a move that isn’t even his best is more impressive than Ichigo failing to put down a nerfed Base Grimmjow

That don't make no sense. Bankai Ichigo was completely toying with base Yammy casually who is espada level. You are telling me that hollowfied bankai Ichigo is below that level and became inferior to weakest espada level ? masked shinji was also unable to finish an even weaker grimmjow, is hollowfied shinji also weaker than base Yammy now ?

Grimmjow is still incredibly powerfull, even missing an arm.

Toshiro also don't resist any kind of heat manip, and baby Ichigo Gt's vap ground and stone alike.

 

[Adam1396]

Ichigo stopped sokyoku. So he negs

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Bump

 

[Jo-Smooth]

That don't make no sense. Bankai Ichigo was completely toying with base Yammy casually who is espada level. You are telling me that hollowfied bankai Ichigo is below that level and became inferior to weakest espada level ? masked shinji was also unable to finish an even weaker grimmjow, is hollowfied shinji also weaker than base Yammy now ?

In that specific part of the story, Ichigo’s power was fluctuating to an extreme degree. While watching Ichigo fight Yammy, Ulq outright said Ichigo’s Reiatsu surpassed his own at moments. When Ichigo’s power consistently rounded out in regards to that arc specifically, we know he was only relative to Base Ulquiorra after all his visored training + his ridiculous accelerated development/reactive power level developed up until that point while Bankai and the Mask were activated. Yet Ichigo specifically during his fight with Base Yammy showed power surpassing that. Aka Ichigo during that Yammy fight isn’t a valid way of scaling his later showings

As for Masked Shinji, we know that not training for a century and being rusty can drastically reduce your capabilities. Stated by Yoruichi and shown to us by Urahara stating pre SS Arc Ichigo before he reached that 4th/3rd seat level’s Getsuga being able to take off his arm. Yet look at Yoruichi and Urahara’s feats in FKT. There’s even a statement from Aizen saying him and Urahara were equals in power pre Hogyoku evolution.

Similarly, outside of training to master their Hollowfication, we don’t have anything to prove the Visoreds constantly trained over that same century+ timeskip. And the fact that they went from struggling with Ichigo’s hollow mutation form which he eventually surpassed, yet was fodderized by Res Ulq even after mastering and surpassing that power, to fighting Res Espada 3-1 and potentially scaling to Gin/Tosen in Shinji’s case…I’d say it’s the Visoreds pre FKT don’t scale to their FKT selves in the same way as Urahara and Yoruichi. So yes it’s very possible Shinji wasn’t Espada level when he fought Grimmjow

Grimmjow is still incredibly powerfull, even missing an arm.

Even if we ignore how he scales to other Espada, we know one armed Grimmjow is weaker than Luppi. Toshiro took Res Luppi’s 8x amped attack and one tapped him with a move that wasn’t his strongest but stronger than said 8x amped attack. Masked Ichigo spamming his best move couldn’t take out Base Grimmjow (in 11 seconds specifically, overall he would’ve cooked Base Grimmjow)

That’s the lore. According to VS Battle Wiki standards, Base/Shikai Toshiro and Shikai Ichigo to the same level during their fights with the former/current Espada 6, and Ichigo’s base post Grimmjow surpassed Toshiro by a large degree, yet in both instances, Toshiro did better against the stronger opponent (Res Luppi/Res Halibel) than Ichigo did against the weaker opponent (1 Armed Base Grimmjow/Res Ulq) despite Ichigo having both a Bankai and a Mask amp and Toshiro just having his immature Bankai amp

Toshiro also don't resist any kind of heat manip, and baby Ichigo Gt's vap ground and stone alike.

Which boils down to who can hit who first if neither resist their opponents temp manip. And I outlined that I believe in these circumstances specifically…aka a fight in the Soul Society and only in this kind of circumstance…I think Bankai Toshiro using flight and air mobility + range is more likely to hit Ichigo than Bankai Ichigo is of hitting Toshiro outside of an initial Bankai blitz attempt. Which even in character Toshiro isn’t as cocky and arrogant as Byakuya and has also in character displayed a failsafe against a character trying to blitz and one shot him immediately after transforming (Halibel)

On paper it sounds like an easy Ichigo W until you really think about it

 

[RenderGK]

bump