Lou_change
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Are we sure that the context proves he carried it even then no one is shown to have better lifting strength than him or equal.
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((SPOILERS)) Deltarune Chapter 2 Upgrades/Additions
- Thread starter ShockingPsychic
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This is very funnie, this can be comparable tô orher characters?
Lou_change
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Just aking, like "should be comparable to Berdly who could carry a golden statue without efort"
Lou_change
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I mean probably be he ripped off that face socket thing the only character shown capable of such even then we need proof of the fact he was carrying it around by himself.
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In the end of the pacifist charapter he gives the statue to create the trash machine, so he was carring it him self
Lou_change
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Fair but it was in hammer space I guess it is fine.
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Even if it was in a hammer space, he needed to take it out of the hammer space to put in the construction of the trash machine
Lou_change
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Yeah you're right.
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I dunno about it being Hammer Space. It being moved might just have been Fusionism; The objects gravitating towards each other as part of the combining process.
Not to mention, Berdly himself calls it "a splendid base", meaning it's what's being built around, so I'm unsure it was being moved that much. (Plus, it was nearby already, having somehow been placed upside down in a castle toilet recently.)
Not to mention, the Thrash Machine (Mech) has, among other parts, the original Thrash Machine itself, the Hacker's finest JPEGs, potentially the original Starman, & several things from whatever enemies you recruit that probably aren't physical, but nonetheless, it's weird.
Maybe it's hammerspace, maybe it's a product of the Fusionism, or maybe Berdly -Who's other best lifting feat in the Dark World is his halbird, & who prides himself on brain over brawn & in the Light World, can't carry some books with only one arm.- really did not only bring it onto a flying roller coaster that should hardly fit it, but lifted it so it could be amassed several tens of meters above or below the nearest flat ground?
Pardon me, please. I'm just a little incredulous. Sorry, all.
Not to mention, Berdly himself calls it "a splendid base", meaning it's what's being built around, so I'm unsure it was being moved that much. (Plus, it was nearby already, having somehow been placed upside down in a castle toilet recently.)
Not to mention, the Thrash Machine (Mech) has, among other parts, the original Thrash Machine itself, the Hacker's finest JPEGs, potentially the original Starman, & several things from whatever enemies you recruit that probably aren't physical, but nonetheless, it's weird.
Maybe it's hammerspace, maybe it's a product of the Fusionism, or maybe Berdly -Who's other best lifting feat in the Dark World is his halbird, & who prides himself on brain over brawn & in the Light World, can't carry some books with only one arm.- really did not only bring it onto a flying roller coaster that should hardly fit it, but lifted it so it could be amassed several tens of meters above or below the nearest flat ground?
Pardon me, please. I'm just a little incredulous. Sorry, all.
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It's show that they have more abillyts in the dark word then in the dark word, so he having problens carring books in the light word isn't a contradiction... And the last time we saw that statue beafore that wasn't in a toilet with It head stuck? This would be a kinda big distance just be the fusionism gravitation (and even if people gave non material things, all of them had that things with them at that time tô give to the trash machine)
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Characters in the Dark World are generally more capable than their Light World counterparts, I agree about that.
Indeed, when last we saw the statue, it was in a toilet in Queen's Castle/Mansion, with its head stuck. On the third floor (Of a 4 floor building.), if I'm not mistaken.
Saying it's an oddly big distance for the fusionism gravitation feels kind of weird; Keep in mind, Giga Queen is tens of meters tall, & Thrash Machine isn't much smaller. IIRC, they stand as tall or taller than most buildings.
Part of that distance is covered by them travelling there on flying roller coaster. (Plus, The Delta Warriors, who are what the mech is to be built around, are already falling towards Berdly & company.)
Not entirely verifiable, given we can't understand what Tasque & Maice say for their contributions. & some of their contributions are of questionable success, Poppup gives "Happi Bravary", Ambyu-Lance gives "flashing lights", Virovirokun gives "tender loving care!" & it's difficult to determine if the Thrash Machine mech actually RECEIVED those.
Anyway, it also just doesn't make sense for Berdly; On Neutral Route, he hurts his arm when getting free of Queen's wire.
Plus, he has dialogue saying "My energy is still too low to help you", implying his arm is still injured, something that persists when you return to The Light World.
So it'd be even weirder if he lifted it when he's explicitly low on energy &/or has a damaged arm, & we don't even see HOW he moves it.
If Berdly were buff enough to lift that statue, I think we'd have seen him lift it once.
& Berdly prides himself on his smarts, always talking about brain over brawn, & deriding brute force.
& if Dark World Berdly WERE buff enough to lift the statue on his own, it'd be redundant for the statue to exist; If he COULD lift it, he'd already have the dream physique the statue of him represents, that he wants to be able to present to people that he wants to admire him. (Ex: Queen.)
& we already have The Delta Warriors failing to get out of Giga Queen's grip.
It doesn't make sense for Berdly's character to dream of being buff like that & yet make an idol of himself like that, if he already has a physique bearing the Class 100 LS to lift a giant gold statue of himself many times bigger than he is.
Why would you need a statue proving you have a splendid physique, if you can just do the physical feats? Why would BERDLY'S EGO need the reinforcement, if he really were that buff, & not a stereotypical nerd?
Not to mention, it'd mean Dark World Berdly somehow has better LS than everyone else, Light World OR Dark World, when practically no one, least of all him, have LS feats near that level.
Pardon my rambling, please.
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The fun gang esse just in top of one another, the fusion was made around the fun gang T posing giga Queen
This is a accutuale good point
ShockingPsychic
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I need to update the OP, but everyone should still be getting 8-A from Queen's baseball?
So far, what I've seen unanimously accepted is the Light World Kris key, and 4-A has been debunked, the speed needs a calc, and the AP scaling is still being discussed.
So far, what I've seen unanimously accepted is the Light World Kris key, and 4-A has been debunked, the speed needs a calc, and the AP scaling is still being discussed.
ShockingPsychic
He/Him- 3,377
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Personally I accept the proposal that a single level up isn't enough to warrant a separate key, so Chapter 1 characters will likely get upgraded too.
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My opinion
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My opinion is that no one except for Thrash deserves to scale to Giga Queen's final attack, and thus that all other enemies in Chapter 2 should remain at 9-B. As for that tier, I already did a recalc of Final Chaos that should be more accurate (the old calc used diameter squared when you're supposed to use radius squared to calculate cylinder volume, also Kris is definitely older than 12), and if y'all are OK with using stuff that's unused in the game, there's the recruit profile of Jevil giving him an ATTACK stat of 10:
So Jevil is definitely comparable to higher-end Chapter 2 enemies (Tasque Manager, Mauswheel, and Werewerewire) if we accept his recruitment profile as usable. Even if we don't, there's still Spamton stating that he needs the NEO body to become more powerful than Jevil, and while we aren't given any clear ideas on base Spamton's strength, he has to be at least as strong as a Werewire since he can hit just as hard.
So Jevil is definitely comparable to higher-end Chapter 2 enemies (Tasque Manager, Mauswheel, and Werewerewire) if we accept his recruitment profile as usable. Even if we don't, there's still Spamton stating that he needs the NEO body to become more powerful than Jevil, and while we aren't given any clear ideas on base Spamton's strength, he has to be at least as strong as a Werewire since he can hit just as hard.
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Yes, The Delta Warriors aren't very tall standing like that, but what I was saying is the Golden Statue IS big, & it's on a roller coaster moving towards where the fall trajectory of The Delta Warriors & the roller coaster intersect, which reduces the distance the statue has to move if the statue is already on the coaster.
....Are you saying to scale Chapter 2 enemies to 8-B (Which comes from Giga Queen, you know.) & then scale Base Spamton to that & scale Jevil & scale that to Chapter 1 enemies?
No.
The Delta Warriors aren't a match for Giga Queen if they don't have the Thrash Machine mech, so if THEY'RE not comparable, it's absurd to say the Chapter 2 enemies (Who I'd assume are weaker than the Delta Warriors.) are, & I'm pretty sure backscaling Jevil & Chapter 1 enemies to Giga Queen is circular scaling, since it could lead to scaling Ch1 Delta Warriors to Ch2 Delta Warriors.
Spamton Base does seem to be weaker than Jevil, but even ignoring Weird Route Kris Soloing him (WR Kris is likely stronger than non-WR Kris.), Spamton Neo's dialogue for becoming Neo implies he didn't reach his expectations (Asking "Why am I not big enough?", begging Kris for help & deciding he wants their SOULs, despite already getting the machine artifact he was obsessively praying to.), about becoming stronger....
So it's questionable if he surpassed Jevil. & surpassing Queen or Giga Queen is doubtful because Spamton & Queen don't really ever directly interact, nor does Spamton ever mention her, let alone imply he's going to surpass her, or even imply he knows about GQ.
MAYBE Jevil should scale above Solo non-WR Ch2 Kris for being stronger than Base Spamton, who might be comparable to Solo non-WR Ch2 Kris, but I don't see any reason to upgrade Ch1 enemies other than maybe Ch1 feat recalcs. (& maybe scaling King to his apparent ex-wife, Queen, but IDK if their life was that bad that they fought enough to harm each other significantly.)
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I'm just answering Shocking Psychic, that if we do as he said we would have to climb to all monsters, not that I agree
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Spantamon NEO is at most equal to Jevil in power or a low level, the rest I fully agree
And I'm pretty sure the king and queen never had any romantic relationship, at best friendly rivals
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I hate saying that I disagree when you agreed with me, but it's my opinion that he could have surpassed Jevil, just not by as much as he aspired to.
But I guess "equal or lower" might make more sense if he's asking "Why am I not big enough"?
I haven't checked for any details in the dialogue, but King & Queen implies some kind of relationship as monarchs. They both consider Lancer their son, don't they? & Queen asks King if he wants anything when he leaves, to which he says pistachios, IIRC. That sounds like more than friendly rivals, IMHO.
Them being romantic is questionable, though, & it is possible that they took care of Lancer together, in a non-romantic way at one point. Maybe they pulled him out of a ditch or something.
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the queen only decided that Lancer would be her son at the end of deltarune chapter 2, the king himself is confused by this decision, maybe they're friends even then, but they don't seem to have any romanticism between the 2
Spanton said that he is weaker than the Jevil and that it would be equal (or comparable, I don't remember) with what he was looking for, he said that unlike the Jevil he would not only stay at this level of power and would try to gain even more with what he had. (if that makes any sense)
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Thanks for this clarification.
Scans of this dialogue, please?
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A very simple way to see it is like this, the fun gang managed to defeat Spanton, while against the Jevil they just tired him out, showing that the Jevil is much stronger than shown (especially with the Jevil seeing that fight as just a game)
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one sec
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The Delta Warriors defeat Spamton, but they're also stronger than in Chapter 1 (Because they levelled up from the Fountain, & possibly also violence; Spamton Neo can be fought even if you don't go full pacifist, IIRC, & violence gives stat boosts.), so that contributed to it.
Plus, Jevil says he'll sleep for 100 years. That's pretty dang tired. & Spamton is nonfatally defeated even if you FIGHT him.
As for the dialogue where Spamton talks about surpassing Jevil:
- I USED TO BE NOTHING BUT THE E_MAIL GUY, NOW I'M THE [[It Burns! Ow! Stop! Help Me! It Burns!]] GUY!
- [[Amazed at thi5 amazing transformation? You too can]] HAVE A [[Communion]] WITH [[Unintelligble Laughter]]
- SOON I'LL EVEN SURPASS THAT DAMNED [[Clown Around Town!]]
- BUT UNLIKE HIM I'M GONNA [[Shoot For the Sky!]] AND GET ON THE PATH TO ...
- [[The Big One]]
- I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO.
- [[Hyperlink blocked.]]
He also has the dialogue:
- [Clown]!? NO!!! I FEEL SICK!!!
But yeah. Chapter 1 Delta Warriors are only strong enough to make Jevil sleep for a century. Chapter 2 Delta Warriors are stronger, & enough so to beat Spamton, who took a form he acted like would let him surpass Jevil. In both cases, The Delta Warriors' opponent lives, & turns themselves into equipment.
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Usually. by Delta Warriors, I mean Kris, Susie & Ralsei, since they're who the prophecy mentions.
(Though, I can't remember where exactly the exact term was first used, since it's not in the prophecy.)
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ok
Jevil doesn't even go to sleep, he just transforms into Devilsknife that he gives to Kris after defeating him, he's still awake as when you show Devilskinife to Noele she realizes it's smiling at her.
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An unrelated but related comment, Kris shouldn't have "Multiple Selves" as a power as he constantly switches between player control and self control
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Well okay, minor correction:
So we can probably assume he doesn't go to sleep if you FIGHT him, since he doesn't say so. Which is also a problem for arguing Jevil's stronger than Spamton for taking hits & only falling asleep then turning himself into equipment when he admits defeat, as opposed to... not falling asleep & turning into equipment anyway upon admitting defeat?
Either way, The Delta Warriors are stronger in Ch2 than Ch1, & neither Jevil nor Spamton Neo are killed or destroyed, even if you FIGHT them, with Jevil only becoming tired through Pacifying him.
- WHAT FUN!! I'M EXHAUSTED!! YOU KIDS TIRED ME UP!! NOW I WILL SLEEP FOR THE OTHER 100 YEARS. UNFORTUNATELY, YOU KIDS CANNOT HAVE SUCH A PLEASANT DREAM. FROM NOW, A NIGHTMARE WILL AWAKEN IN YOUR HEARTS. IN THE SHADOW OF THE KNIGHT'S HAND... LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT? UEE HEE HEE! EITHER WAY, A MISCHIEF-MISCHIEF, A CHAOS-CHAOS...! LIGHTNERS! FROM INSIDE YOUR LITTLE CELL!! TAKE THIS AND DO YOUR STRONGEST---!
- HA HA HA. WHAT FUN!!! YOU'RE FAST, FAST, STRONG, STRONG. BUT THERE ARE YET FASTER, YET STRONGER. THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD. SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS... LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT? UEE HEE HEE! EITHER WAY, A MISCHIEF-MISCHIEF, A CHAOS-CHAOS...! LIGHTNERS! FROM INSIDE YOUR LITTLE CELL!! TAKE ME AND DO YOUR STRONGEST---!
So we can probably assume he doesn't go to sleep if you FIGHT him, since he doesn't say so. Which is also a problem for arguing Jevil's stronger than Spamton for taking hits & only falling asleep then turning himself into equipment when he admits defeat, as opposed to... not falling asleep & turning into equipment anyway upon admitting defeat?
Either way, The Delta Warriors are stronger in Ch2 than Ch1, & neither Jevil nor Spamton Neo are killed or destroyed, even if you FIGHT them, with Jevil only becoming tired through Pacifying him.
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Multiple Selves
Multiple Selves is the ability which allows to have several different entities existing within one being. They can either be minds, souls, living organisms or even combinations of these types. This ability has a number of advantages and a number of shortcomings. Type 1 (Multiple Minds)...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Maybe? Type 1 (Multiple Minds) is ambiguous because we don't know if it's a metafiction situation where the SOUL lacks a mind in itself & just does as we, the external player has it do.
Also, for Type 1: "in order to meet the requirements, their alternative identities must be extremely relevant, influent and grant them exceptional or supernatural powers, abilities and/or resistances, sometimes even affecting the very structure of their body."
Type 2 (Multiple Souls) is similarly ambiguous because we don't know if Kris has a Soul other than the one they pull out.
"Those who are possessed by one or multiple spiritual beings would fall under this category. In order to qualify as "selves" such spiritual beings should preferably be sentient, regardless of them being autonomous, dormant or forcibly controlled."
What if Kris doesn't have a Soul of their own, & the one they pull out & put back in themselves from time to time, which we control, is the one they were born/created with?
Is that still "Possession" if there's no other Soul we're seizing control of Kris from?
Feels kinda ambiguous.
ShockingPsychic
He/Him- 3,377
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- #274
I'll try and update the OP today, given how it's kinda outdated.
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ok, i thought you win devilkin both ways... well then it makes sense for him to say he's going to sleep for so long, for this ending you have to spread sleep manipulation on jevil like you don't have a tomorrow
He won't admit defeat if you fight him, he just says he had a lot of fun and that you're strong and then he talks about the dangers that lie ahead, then he gives in to help the Fun gang get even stronger
well, Spanton neo and defeated, he just doesn't get killed... at least he comes closer to being defeated than Jevi
I would say multiple minds, the Player is considered Kris' mistress both in the game and in his profile (as he is said to survive without a soul) but decisions taken by the player are sometimes opposite to what Kris wants (like when you call him Noele at WR and Kris just whispers her name or when you don't answer susie while answering the question of who you would take to the festival that Susie did, which Kris just says something comprehensive instead of actually answering), other examples are shown in Kris' game leaving the Player's control to act on his own, but the best thing in my opinion is after you fight Spanton in PR, where Kris is very bad after the fight, possibly identifying himself as the Player's puppetMultiple Selves
Multiple Selves is the ability which allows to have several different entities existing within one being. They can either be minds, souls, living organisms or even combinations of these types. This ability has a number of advantages and a number of shortcomings. Type 1 (Multiple Minds)...
Maybe? Type 1 (Multiple Minds) is ambiguous because we don't know if it's a metafiction situation where the SOUL lacks a mind in itself & just does as we, the external player has it do.
Also, for Type 1: "in order to meet the requirements, their alternative identities must be extremely relevant, influent and grant them exceptional or supernatural powers, abilities and/or resistances, sometimes even affecting the very structure of their body."
Type 2 (Multiple Souls) is similarly ambiguous because we don't know if Kris has a Soul other than the one they pull out.
"Those who are possessed by one or multiple spiritual beings would fall under this category. In order to qualify as "selves" such spiritual beings should preferably be sentient, regardless of them being autonomous, dormant or forcibly controlled."
What if Kris doesn't have a Soul of their own, & the one they pull out & put back in themselves from time to time, which we control, is the one they were born/created with?
Is that still "Possession" if there's no other Soul we're seizing control of Kris from?
Feels kinda ambiguous.
l
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thanks, and probably no one besides the trash machine is comparable to anything from the giga queen, so it would be a good thing to change that too
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He is? When? (Also, "mistress"?)
But yes, Kris & the Player/SOUL do behave differently, I agree.
The problem besides Type 1 saying:
"in order to meet the requirements, their alternative identities must be extremely relevant, influent and grant them exceptional or supernatural powers, abilities and/or resistances, sometimes even affecting the very structure of their body."
....Is I'm not sure if Kris would still qualify for Type 1 if the SOUL is just a remotely controlled thing or an actual Soul. & if it is a Soul, we'd have to verify sentience & the matter of if Kris is possessed & if they have a Soul of their own other than the SOUL.
(Hopefully my argumentatiteness ain't being unpleasant for anyone.)
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I would say that this is one more weakness in Kris' case, but to sum up, everything Kris does while we're in control of him, the Player is in control, everything Kris does when we're not in control of him and Kris has done it, the player can influence what Kris does when choosing options, but Kris chooses how to accomplish them (like him choosing to whisper or yell if you choose certain options, Call Noelle for help during WR at the end of the Spanton fight and say that not well after defeating Spanton in PR respectively)
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They* how about all the mentions that the heart-shaped object and kris' soul + the player will be shown to be the heart-shaped object (like when Kris removes us from it and locks it in the cage, we can still move around inside from the cage
well, Kris alone doesn't have the ability to save or load time alone, that's directly as a result of the Player's feats, without the Player they couldn't do that
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