- 1,280
- 1,123
Do you mean Giga Queen and Thrash? Because we actually decided that it doesn't make sense for anyone to downscale from them. But Jevil shouldn't be that far behind base Queen, at least.anyway does jevil scale to chapter 2 top tiers?
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Do you mean Giga Queen and Thrash? Because we actually decided that it doesn't make sense for anyone to downscale from them. But Jevil shouldn't be that far behind base Queen, at least.anyway does jevil scale to chapter 2 top tiers?
so that means Spamton Neo is weaker than queen?Do you mean Giga Queen and Thrash? Because we actually decided that it doesn't make sense for anyone to downscale from them. But Jevil shouldn't be that far behind base Queen, at least.
In terms of stats. Jevil = Tasque Manager, a relatively easy encounter for us in chapter 2 (which illustrates how much stronger we got maybe),Do you mean Giga Queen and Thrash? Because we actually decided that it doesn't make sense for anyone to downscale from them. But Jevil shouldn't be that far behind base Queen, at least.
I personally think jevil could easily surpass neo, this is scaling off of a single statement so I think its unreliableSpamton NEO > Jevil > Spamton = Ch 2 Nomral Enemies
That's non-sequitur, but I agree it's not the most reliable statementAs basis, spamton also thought that neo would allow him to be free, he was wrong about that. He could easily be wrong about the jevil part of it too
Again, stat wise, "you won't find highest ATK or DEF anywhere else", and Jevil being comparable to Tasque Manager, I say Jevil surely surpasses Base Spamton, and just possibly is comparable to or surpasses NEO.As basis, spamton also thought that neo would allow him to be free, he was wrong about that. He could easily be wrong about the jevil part of it too
Hey, now we only have GIGA Queen's final attack left to evaluate. We can probably start making profiles right away.Can you list every calculation to be evaluated?
The city is modelled after his image, starts right after we fight him, he is the one who extended the rails, and summoned the carts, he then changes the city into a fancy background when he is feeling happy at the end of the pacifist battle.wait so what evidence do we have of spamton making the city?
No.Also shouldn't the player profile have soul manipulation via controlling frisk's soul and then resistance to the same due to ignoring Asriel's soul absorpiton?
Hm. I want to point out that during his final chaos, jevil calls it "the true and neo chaos". I dunno if that changes anything. Maybe he's saying its as strong as neo? If so, it shows that 1: He knows what neo is, and 2: He believes himself to be capable of destroying neo, even if he doesn't want to due to his whole philosophy. It's just a single statement, like what spamton said being a single statement, but considering these two clashed I thought I would bring it up anyway.Again, stat wise, "you won't find highest ATK or DEF anywhere else", and Jevil being comparable to Tasque Manager, I say Jevil surely surpasses Base Spamton, and just possibly is comparable to or surpasses NEO.
Remember, NEO is at the very least around the same level as Jevil as a Shadow Crystal holder. (In the narrative)
Hm, are these stats obtained by data mining or by checking?Again, stat wise, "you won't find highest ATK or DEF anywhere else", and Jevil being comparable to Tasque Manager
When he is defeated by The Fun Gang, he says that we're strong and fast, but there is stronger and faster people, before saying:Hm. I want to point out that during his final chaos, jevil calls it "the true and neo chaos". I dunno if that changes anything. Maybe he's saying its as strong as neo? If so, it shows that 1: He knows what neo is, and 2: He believes himself to be capable of destroying neo, even if he doesn't want to due to his whole philosophy. It's just a single statement, like what spamton said being a single statement, but considering these two clashed I thought I would bring it up anyway.
10 ATK is found by data mining.Hm, are these stats obtained by data mining or by checking?
That makes sense except for one thing. Is he saying that queen is stronger than all of them combined, or each one individually? That would make a huge differenceWhen he is defeated by The Fun Gang, he says that we're strong and fast, but there is stronger and faster people, before saying:
"SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS... LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT? UEE HEE HEE! EITHER WAY, A MISCHIEF-MISCHIEF, A CHAOS-CHAOS...! LIGHTNERS! FROM INSIDE YOUR LITTLE CELL!! TAKE ME AND DO YOUR STRONGEST---!"
Meaning Queen is considered stronger than Jevil.
Not necessarily stronger, NEO and queen never fought and queen was completely oblivious to Spamtons take over. I'm not saying I don't agree that Spamton is stronger than base queen, but we can't be 100% sure because they never foughtNEO is obviously stronger than Base Queen since he is the chapter's secret boss.
Both Jevil's attack and Tasques, right? I'd like to mention that Tasque's datamined defense is zero, while jevil's is five, which means he is stronger at least in that regard10 ATK is found by data mining.
"HA HA HA. WHAT FUN!!! YOU'RE FAST, FAST, STRONG, STRONG. BUT THERE ARE YET FASTER, YET STRONGER. THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD."That makes sense except for one thing. Is he saying that queen is stronger than all of them combined, or each one individually? That would make a huge difference
We can conclude NEO is stronger than Base Queen (not GIGA Queen) due to the simple logic that:Not necessarily stronger, NEO and queen never fought and queen was completely oblivious to Spamtons take over. I'm not saying I don't agree that Spamton is stronger than base queen, but we can't be 100% sure because they never fought
Yeah. Tasque Manager's ATK can be seem as a recruit. Jevil's too, but I assume his recruitment was ultimately discarded.Both Jevil's attack and Tasques, right? I'd like to mention that Tasque's datamined defense is zero, while jevil's is five, which means he is stronger at least in that regard
Alright I agree. Although under that logic Jevil is stronger than queen too, plus queens datamined stats are lower than jevils (attack is the same but base queen has a defense stat of 0. Queen's datamined HP is 1510 while Jevil's is 3500). Does queen ever mention Jevil? (by name or just "the clown")We can conclude NEO is stronger than Base Queen (not GIGA Queen) due to the simple logic that:
Seam stated that strong adversaries would hold Shadow Crystals;
Jevil held one, King didn't, so he is stronger than the King (stat wise, the fight itself and narratively)
NEO held one, Queen didn't.
So he should be stronger than Queen, his fight is harder than Queen's, and the narrative seems to agree with that notion.
ikr("You" not having a plural is a real pain in the ass sometimes)
Tasque manager has flavor text for people using the devilsknife and jevilstail "Chaos chaos? More like order order! Now put away that silly Devilsknife", idk if this changes anything thoughYeah. Tasque Manager's ATK can be seem as a recruit. Jevil's too, but I assume his recruitment was ultimately discarded.
Yeah, he should be somewhat stronger than the Queen, not by a lot, though. Again, he did say Queen is stronger than the guys who could tire him up, meaning Queen is at least comparable to Jevil.Alright I agree. Although under that logic Jevil is stronger than queen too, plus queens datamined stats are lower than jevils (attack is the same but base queen has a defense stat of 0. Queen's datamined HP is 1510 while Jevil's is 3500). Does queen ever mention Jevil? (by name or just "the clown")
She ain't threatened by Jevil, and knows who he is.Tasque manager has flavor text for people using the devilsknife and jevilstail "Chaos chaos? More like order order! Now put away that silly Devilsknife", idk if this changes anything though
Actually, I'm not so sure on that. Kris and co got stronger, which might mean Jevil isn't considered a strong opponent to them anymore.Yeah, he should be somewhat stronger than the Queen, not by a lot, though. Again, he did say Queen is stronger than the guys who could tire him up, meaning Queen is at least comparable to Jevil.
Perhaps he's talking about giga queen. That would make sense to me as the only real attack he has that could harm giga queen is the gigantic devilsknife in his final chaos, especially considering it does damage based off of your max hp instead of a set answerYeah, he should be somewhat stronger than the Queen, not by a lot, though. Again, he did say Queen is stronger than the guys who could tire him up, meaning Queen is at least comparable to Jevil.
base queen isnt really considered a strong opponent to them either, they defeat base queen with ease no matter what route they take. Also if I had to fight jevil first time with stats from chapter two I would still die more times than I did to base queenwhich might mean Jevil isn't considered a strong opponent to them anymore.
Yeah, but Jevilsknife is not useful in the fight against GIGA Queen (and it's literally Jevil carried with us)Perhaps he's talking about giga queen. That would make sense to me as the only real attack he has that could harm giga queen is the gigantic devilsknife in his final chaos, especially considering it does damage based off of your max hp instead of a set answer
Fun Fact: I did that, and Jevil was sort of a pushover.base queen isnt really considered a strong opponent to them either, they defeat base queen with ease no matter what route they take. Also if I had to fight jevil first time with stats from chapter two I would still die more times than I did to base queen
I said the gigantic oneYeah, but Jevilsknife is not useful in the fight against GIGA Queen (and it's literally Jevil carried with us)
I said first time. You probably already know Jevil's attack patterns and therefore your muscle memory is built up making it easierFun Fact: I did that, and Jevil was sort of a pushover.
I'd be fine with that, but only snowgrave noelle if she has a tab for snowgrave noelleGoing to do snowgrave and put the watch just to break the doe even more
Question would noelle get limited 4 wall awerness because when you put the unused item she apperently recongizes is unused. And yes we use "unused" things in this type of verses like doki doki
That's because the verse itself is meta.Question would noelle get limited 4 wall awerness because when you put the unused item she apperently recongizes is unused. And yes we use "unused" things in this type of verses like doki doki
yet. But yeah ralsei should have itThat's because the verse itself is meta.
Not the case for Deltarune, so no.
You'd only need to remove Snowgrave's AP description, probably put the link for the feat on the "Multi-City Block" or on the "Snowgrave"Here's Noelle's profile, updated again. Give some input on it if you can.
Okay, done. Anything else?You'd only need to remove Snowgrave's AP description, probably put the link for the feat on the "Multi-City Block" or on the "Snowgrave"
Also, Noelle is Supersonic, right?
Same reason as to how Chapter 1 fodder scales to it, albeit a downscaleWhy do Chapter 2 fodder scale to Final Chaos?
Nope, looks good.Okay, done. Anything else?
By the way, with all the calculations done, and no complaints about the changes I believe we can start making the changes now.CHAPTER 2 CRT - CHANGES SO FAR
Just read through the entire thread again to gather the important points regarding scaling. There were 4 or 5 debates (3 of which I was directly involved) where we discussed something rather unrelated to the CRT (Age for example), so I won't be addressing those in this summary.
Attack Potency
Nothing much on the Attack Potency side of things other than some hax-based (non-combat applicable) AP ratings.
- Most characters stay at Wall Level, but at a higher end due to recalculations on Jevil's and Lancer's feats. Ch 2. Characters scale above this ("At least Wall Level")
- Chapter 2 Top Tiers are possibly Wall Level+ due to Spamton NEO's statement about having 3x more fire power, although it's a dubius statement.
- Noelle can freeze an enemy solid, which is barely Small Bulding Level, she should scale to that.
- Noelle's SnowGrave is Multi-City Block+
- Spamton is City Level with Reality Warping for creating an entire city on his image on the background (Non-Combat Applicable)
- Lightners are possibly City Level with Creation, as any lightner is implied to be able to create a Dark Fountain through their will/determination. Cyber World, a Dark World, has a city.
- Light World Kris, Dark World Kris, Dark World Berdly and Dark World Noelle are likely City Level with Creation. We see Kris creating a Fountain on screen, Berdly was about to create one before being stopped by Ralsei (meaning he could), and Noelle was stated to be capable of doing so too.
- The Multi-Solar System argument for the dark world because it has a starry sky was debunked due to the nature of the world, with decorations pretending to be celestial bodies (such as a baseball moon), and the "stars" being at ground level when we're about to enter Queen's castle
- GIGA Queen and Thrash Machine are Multi-City Block Level
Affected Profiles:
Every lightner (+possibly City Level with Creation)
Every darkner (update the calculations)
Noelle (+Small Bulding Level with Iceshock, + likely City Level with creation)
LW and DW Berdly (+likely City Level with creation)
Spamton (it's already applied)
LW and DW Kris (+likely City Level with creation)
GIGA Queen (+Multi-City Block Level)
Thrash Machine (+Multi-City Block Level)
Speed
We've got some new feats in regards of speed for Deltarune.
- Kris dodges meows (Subsonic+)
- Kris dodges phone waves (Supersonic)
There are probably others, but these are the ones I found. Which feat should be applied?
Affected Profiles:
Every chapter 2 character
Power and Abilities
Already presented in the OP, but still, we got some more
- Dark World Lightners: Resistance to SOUL Manipulation
- The Fun Gang: Accelerated Development (Grows stronger every encounter defeated with violence)
- Kris: Creation (Can create Dark Worlds, which can have an entire city), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point), Multiple Selves (Type 1 or Type 2)
- Susie: Minor Healing (via Ultimaheal), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit and pull out a giant syringe), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point)
- Ralsei: Statistics Amplification (via Fluffy Guard, boosts defense), Dimensional Storage (Can change into a nurses' outfit),
- Noelle: Magic, enhanced Accelerated Development (Grows stronger after every encounter defeated with violence, becoming even stronger than Kris, Susie and Ralsei), Ice Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Healing, limited Acrobatics (can jump large distances when scared), limited Levitation (Levitated while casting SnowGrave), Sealing
- Rejected: Kris' Time Manipulation must be removed from their profile (or made it clear that it's not theirs), as it is from the anomaly. The argument that Kris has a "save file" that we apparently overwrite is false, as it has no saved place, nor time, meaning they never saved in their life.
Affected Profiles:
Kris
Susie
Ralsei
Noelle
Lifting Strength
We got some unevaluated feats, but we had a debate about them, so why not.
- Chapter 2 DW Lightners, and high tier Darkners should be Class 1 by being comparable to Swatchlings, who can carry a giant arcade machine casually
- Chapter 2 Characters should be possibly Class 10 by scaling above Berdly carrying his own statue (which is not seem on-screen, hence, why it's just a possibly, as we do not know how he did it)
- GIGA Queen and Thrash Machine should have Class M Lifting Strength as T.M can stop Queen's Giant Baseball with a punch, hold it for sometime, before sending it back (it weights 5700 Tons)
- GIGA Queen has Class M grip
Affected Profiles:
Chapter 2 DW Lighterns
Stronger Chapter 2 Characters
GIGA Queen
Thrash Machine
Extra
Kris and co.'s age should be around 16 (because some of the students have jobs)
Brought up by @Imaginym, Jevil's dialogue confirms chapter 2 end-game enemies are stronger than the fun gang (which defeated him through fighting)
TO BE EVALUATED:
Noelle's Snowgrave(Evaluated, Creation End accepted)GIGA Queen's final attack(Evaluated, corrected and accepted)GIGA Queen's grip(Evaluated, Accepted)Duck focken' explodes(Accepted)Swatchlings carry an Arcade Machine(Evaluated, Low End accepted)Berdly possibly carry his statue(Evaluated, Recalc accepted)
FUN FACT: Minus the debates, this thread is actually barely two pages long.
Oof, well, that was tough.
Oh I didn't notice that.Okay, wait, one more thing: can Noelle and Ralsei have solid Soul Manipulation? They are a monster and a Darkner respectively, and every enemy we've fought, which is either a monster (Susie and Berdly) or a Darkner (everyone else), attacks the soul when using magic. I ask because I didn't put Soul Manipulation on Noelle's page, and I'm wondering if I should.
2019. Ideas changes, and we can visually see that the City is immense in multiple scenes. It should still be at least baseline City LevelShould the "likely City Level with Creation" get changed to "likely Small City Level with Creation" since Tobyfox called Cyber City "extremely small"
Okay, I have applied all the changes to the currently existing profiles. We need to start making new ones.CHAPTER 2 CRT - CHANGES SO FAR
Just read through the entire thread again to gather the important points regarding scaling. There were 4 or 5 debates (3 of which I was directly involved) where we discussed something rather unrelated to the CRT (Age for example), so I won't be addressing those in this summary.
Attack Potency
Nothing much on the Attack Potency side of things other than some hax-based (non-combat applicable) AP ratings.
- Most characters stay at Wall Level, but at a higher end due to recalculations on Jevil's and Lancer's feats. Ch 2. Characters scale above this ("At least Wall Level")
- Chapter 2 Top Tiers are possibly Wall Level+ due to Spamton NEO's statement about having 3x more fire power, although it's a dubius statement.
- Noelle can freeze an enemy solid, which is barely Small Bulding Level, she should scale to that.
- Noelle's SnowGrave is Multi-City Block+
- Spamton is City Level with Reality Warping for creating an entire city on his image on the background (Non-Combat Applicable)
- Lightners are possibly City Level with Creation, as any lightner is implied to be able to create a Dark Fountain through their will/determination. Cyber World, a Dark World, has a city.
- Light World Kris, Dark World Kris, Dark World Berdly and Dark World Noelle are likely City Level with Creation. We see Kris creating a Fountain on screen, Berdly was about to create one before being stopped by Ralsei (meaning he could), and Noelle was stated to be capable of doing so too.
- The Multi-Solar System argument for the dark world because it has a starry sky was debunked due to the nature of the world, with decorations pretending to be celestial bodies (such as a baseball moon), and the "stars" being at ground level when we're about to enter Queen's castle
- GIGA Queen and Thrash Machine are Multi-City Block Level
Affected Profiles:
Every lightner (+possibly City Level with Creation)
Every darkner (update the calculations)
Noelle (+Small Bulding Level with Iceshock, + likely City Level with creation)
LW and DW Berdly (+likely City Level with creation)
Spamton (it's already applied)
LW and DW Kris (+likely City Level with creation)
GIGA Queen (+Multi-City Block Level)
Thrash Machine (+Multi-City Block Level)
Speed
We've got some new feats in regards of speed for Deltarune.
- Kris dodges meows (Subsonic+)
- Kris dodges phone waves (Supersonic)
There are probably others, but these are the ones I found. Which feat should be applied?
Affected Profiles:
Every chapter 2 character
Power and Abilities
Already presented in the OP, but still, we got some more
- Dark World Lightners: Resistance to SOUL Manipulation
- The Fun Gang: Accelerated Development (Grows stronger every encounter defeated with violence)
- Kris: Creation (Can create Dark Worlds, which can have an entire city), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point), Multiple Selves (Type 1 or Type 2)
- Susie: Minor Healing (via Ultimaheal), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit and pull out a giant syringe), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point)
- Ralsei: Statistics Amplification (via Fluffy Guard, boosts defense), Dimensional Storage (Can change into a nurses' outfit),
- Noelle: Magic, enhanced Accelerated Development (Grows stronger after every encounter defeated with violence, becoming even stronger than Kris, Susie and Ralsei), Ice Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Healing, limited Acrobatics (can jump large distances when scared), limited Levitation (Levitated while casting SnowGrave), Sealing
- Rejected: Kris' Time Manipulation must be removed from their profile (or made it clear that it's not theirs), as it is from the anomaly. The argument that Kris has a "save file" that we apparently overwrite is false, as it has no saved place, nor time, meaning they never saved in their life.
Affected Profiles:
Kris
Susie
Ralsei
Noelle
Lifting Strength
We got some unevaluated feats, but we had a debate about them, so why not.
- Chapter 2 DW Lightners, and high tier Darkners should be Class 1 by being comparable to Swatchlings, who can carry a giant arcade machine casually
- Chapter 2 Characters should be possibly Class 10 by scaling above Berdly carrying his own statue (which is not seem on-screen, hence, why it's just a possibly, as we do not know how he did it)
- GIGA Queen and Thrash Machine should have Class M Lifting Strength as T.M can stop Queen's Giant Baseball with a punch, hold it for sometime, before sending it back (it weights 5700 Tons)
- GIGA Queen has Class M grip
Affected Profiles:
Chapter 2 DW Lighterns
Stronger Chapter 2 Characters
GIGA Queen
Thrash Machine
Extra
Kris and co.'s age should be around 16 (because some of the students have jobs)
Brought up by @Imaginym, Jevil's dialogue confirms chapter 2 end-game enemies are stronger than the fun gang (which defeated him through fighting)
TO BE EVALUATED:
Noelle's Snowgrave(Evaluated, Creation End accepted)GIGA Queen's final attack(Evaluated, corrected and accepted)GIGA Queen's grip(Evaluated, Accepted)Duck focken' explodes(Accepted)Swatchlings carry an Arcade Machine(Evaluated, Low End accepted)Berdly possibly carry his statue(Evaluated, Recalc accepted)
FUN FACT: Minus the debates, this thread is actually barely two pages long.
Oof, well, that was tough.
Does Berdly have a page yet?Okay, I have applied all the changes to the currently existing profiles. We need to start making new ones.
Noelle
Queen
Thrash Machine
Swatchlings
What else?
Oh, you forgot to add "likely City Level with Creation (Queen stated Noelle was capable of creating a Dark Fountain)" on both her keys.Alright, Noelle's page is up. I can help with other profiles if needed since it's the weekend.
Yes. And I have already applied our revisionDoes Berdly have a page yet?