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((SPOILERS)) Deltarune Chapter 2 Upgrades/Additions

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Do you mean Giga Queen and Thrash? Because we actually decided that it doesn't make sense for anyone to downscale from them. But Jevil shouldn't be that far behind base Queen, at least.
In terms of stats. Jevil = Tasque Manager, a relatively easy encounter for us in chapter 2 (which illustrates how much stronger we got maybe),

In terms of Narrative, Jevil is stronger than Chapter 2 Darkners (random encounters and Spamton) and comparable to mini boss. Spamton said he would soon "surpass Jevil" in his NEO form, so

Spamton NEO > Jevil > Spamton = Ch 2 Nomral Enemies
 
As basis, spamton also thought that neo would allow him to be free, he was wrong about that. He could easily be wrong about the jevil part of it too
 
As basis, spamton also thought that neo would allow him to be free, he was wrong about that. He could easily be wrong about the jevil part of it too
Again, stat wise, "you won't find highest ATK or DEF anywhere else", and Jevil being comparable to Tasque Manager, I say Jevil surely surpasses Base Spamton, and just possibly is comparable to or surpasses NEO.

Remember, NEO is at the very least around the same level as Jevil as a Shadow Crystal holder. (In the narrative)
 
Also shouldn't the player profile have soul manipulation via controlling frisk's soul and then resistance to the same due to ignoring Asriel's soul absorpiton?
 
wait so what evidence do we have of spamton making the city?
The city is modelled after his image, starts right after we fight him, he is the one who extended the rails, and summoned the carts, he then changes the city into a fancy background when he is feeling happy at the end of the pacifist battle.
 
Again, stat wise, "you won't find highest ATK or DEF anywhere else", and Jevil being comparable to Tasque Manager, I say Jevil surely surpasses Base Spamton, and just possibly is comparable to or surpasses NEO.

Remember, NEO is at the very least around the same level as Jevil as a Shadow Crystal holder. (In the narrative)
Hm. I want to point out that during his final chaos, jevil calls it "the true and neo chaos". I dunno if that changes anything. Maybe he's saying its as strong as neo? If so, it shows that 1: He knows what neo is, and 2: He believes himself to be capable of destroying neo, even if he doesn't want to due to his whole philosophy. It's just a single statement, like what spamton said being a single statement, but considering these two clashed I thought I would bring it up anyway.
Again, stat wise, "you won't find highest ATK or DEF anywhere else", and Jevil being comparable to Tasque Manager
Hm, are these stats obtained by data mining or by checking?
 
Hm. I want to point out that during his final chaos, jevil calls it "the true and neo chaos". I dunno if that changes anything. Maybe he's saying its as strong as neo? If so, it shows that 1: He knows what neo is, and 2: He believes himself to be capable of destroying neo, even if he doesn't want to due to his whole philosophy. It's just a single statement, like what spamton said being a single statement, but considering these two clashed I thought I would bring it up anyway.
When he is defeated by The Fun Gang, he says that we're strong and fast, but there is stronger and faster people, before saying:

"SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS... LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT? UEE HEE HEE! EITHER WAY, A MISCHIEF-MISCHIEF, A CHAOS-CHAOS...! LIGHTNERS! FROM INSIDE YOUR LITTLE CELL!! TAKE ME AND DO YOUR STRONGEST---!"
Meaning Queen is considered stronger than Jevil. NEO is obviously stronger than Base Queen since he is the chapter's secret boss.
Hm, are these stats obtained by data mining or by checking?
10 ATK is found by data mining.
 
When he is defeated by The Fun Gang, he says that we're strong and fast, but there is stronger and faster people, before saying:

"SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS... LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT? UEE HEE HEE! EITHER WAY, A MISCHIEF-MISCHIEF, A CHAOS-CHAOS...! LIGHTNERS! FROM INSIDE YOUR LITTLE CELL!! TAKE ME AND DO YOUR STRONGEST---!"
Meaning Queen is considered stronger than Jevil.
That makes sense except for one thing. Is he saying that queen is stronger than all of them combined, or each one individually? That would make a huge difference
NEO is obviously stronger than Base Queen since he is the chapter's secret boss.
Not necessarily stronger, NEO and queen never fought and queen was completely oblivious to Spamtons take over. I'm not saying I don't agree that Spamton is stronger than base queen, but we can't be 100% sure because they never fought
10 ATK is found by data mining.
Both Jevil's attack and Tasques, right? I'd like to mention that Tasque's datamined defense is zero, while jevil's is five, which means he is stronger at least in that regard
 
That makes sense except for one thing. Is he saying that queen is stronger than all of them combined, or each one individually? That would make a huge difference
"HA HA HA. WHAT FUN!!! YOU'RE FAST, FAST, STRONG, STRONG. BUT THERE ARE YET FASTER, YET STRONGER. THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD."
Right before saying "SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS... LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT?"

This is the same dialogue, so he is speaking about them as a team. ("You" not having a plural is a real pain in the ass sometimes)
Not necessarily stronger, NEO and queen never fought and queen was completely oblivious to Spamtons take over. I'm not saying I don't agree that Spamton is stronger than base queen, but we can't be 100% sure because they never fought
We can conclude NEO is stronger than Base Queen (not GIGA Queen) due to the simple logic that:
Seam stated that strong adversaries would hold Shadow Crystals;
Jevil held one, King didn't, so he is stronger than the King (stat wise, the fight itself and narratively)
NEO held one, Queen didn't.
So he should be stronger than Queen, his fight is harder than Queen's, and the narrative seems to agree with that notion.
Both Jevil's attack and Tasques, right? I'd like to mention that Tasque's datamined defense is zero, while jevil's is five, which means he is stronger at least in that regard
Yeah. Tasque Manager's ATK can be seem as a recruit. Jevil's too, but I assume his recruitment was ultimately discarded.
 
We can conclude NEO is stronger than Base Queen (not GIGA Queen) due to the simple logic that:
Seam stated that strong adversaries would hold Shadow Crystals;
Jevil held one, King didn't, so he is stronger than the King (stat wise, the fight itself and narratively)
NEO held one, Queen didn't.
So he should be stronger than Queen, his fight is harder than Queen's, and the narrative seems to agree with that notion.
Alright I agree. Although under that logic Jevil is stronger than queen too, plus queens datamined stats are lower than jevils (attack is the same but base queen has a defense stat of 0. Queen's datamined HP is 1510 while Jevil's is 3500). Does queen ever mention Jevil? (by name or just "the clown")
("You" not having a plural is a real pain in the ass sometimes)
ikr
Yeah. Tasque Manager's ATK can be seem as a recruit. Jevil's too, but I assume his recruitment was ultimately discarded.
Tasque manager has flavor text for people using the devilsknife and jevilstail "Chaos chaos? More like order order! Now put away that silly Devilsknife", idk if this changes anything though
 
Alright I agree. Although under that logic Jevil is stronger than queen too, plus queens datamined stats are lower than jevils (attack is the same but base queen has a defense stat of 0. Queen's datamined HP is 1510 while Jevil's is 3500). Does queen ever mention Jevil? (by name or just "the clown")
Yeah, he should be somewhat stronger than the Queen, not by a lot, though. Again, he did say Queen is stronger than the guys who could tire him up, meaning Queen is at least comparable to Jevil.
I'm grateful my language does.
Tasque manager has flavor text for people using the devilsknife and jevilstail "Chaos chaos? More like order order! Now put away that silly Devilsknife", idk if this changes anything though
She ain't threatened by Jevil, and knows who he is.
 
Yeah, he should be somewhat stronger than the Queen, not by a lot, though. Again, he did say Queen is stronger than the guys who could tire him up, meaning Queen is at least comparable to Jevil.
Actually, I'm not so sure on that. Kris and co got stronger, which might mean Jevil isn't considered a strong opponent to them anymore.
 
Yeah, he should be somewhat stronger than the Queen, not by a lot, though. Again, he did say Queen is stronger than the guys who could tire him up, meaning Queen is at least comparable to Jevil.
Perhaps he's talking about giga queen. That would make sense to me as the only real attack he has that could harm giga queen is the gigantic devilsknife in his final chaos, especially considering it does damage based off of your max hp instead of a set answer
which might mean Jevil isn't considered a strong opponent to them anymore.
base queen isnt really considered a strong opponent to them either, they defeat base queen with ease no matter what route they take. Also if I had to fight jevil first time with stats from chapter two I would still die more times than I did to base queen
 
Perhaps he's talking about giga queen. That would make sense to me as the only real attack he has that could harm giga queen is the gigantic devilsknife in his final chaos, especially considering it does damage based off of your max hp instead of a set answer
Yeah, but Jevilsknife is not useful in the fight against GIGA Queen (and it's literally Jevil carried with us)
base queen isnt really considered a strong opponent to them either, they defeat base queen with ease no matter what route they take. Also if I had to fight jevil first time with stats from chapter two I would still die more times than I did to base queen
Fun Fact: I did that, and Jevil was sort of a pushover.
 
Going to do snowgrave and put the watch just to break the doe even more

Question would noelle get limited 4 wall awerness because when you put the unused item she apperently recongizes is unused. And yes we use "unused" things in this type of verses like doki doki
 
Going to do snowgrave and put the watch just to break the doe even more

Question would noelle get limited 4 wall awerness because when you put the unused item she apperently recongizes is unused. And yes we use "unused" things in this type of verses like doki doki
I'd be fine with that, but only snowgrave noelle if she has a tab for snowgrave noelle
 
CHAPTER 2 CRT - CHANGES SO FAR

Just read through the entire thread again to gather the important points regarding scaling. There were 4 or 5 debates (3 of which I was directly involved) where we discussed something rather unrelated to the CRT (Age for example), so I won't be addressing those in this summary.

Attack Potency
Nothing much on the Attack Potency side of things other than some hax-based (non-combat applicable) AP ratings.


Affected Profiles:
Every lightner (+possibly City Level with Creation)
Every darkner (update the calculations)
Noelle (+Small Bulding Level with Iceshock, + likely City Level with creation)
LW and DW Berdly (+likely City Level with creation)
Spamton (it's already applied)
LW and DW Kris (+likely City Level with creation)
GIGA Queen (+Multi-City Block Level)
Thrash Machine (+Multi-City Block Level)

Speed
We've got some new feats in regards of speed for Deltarune.




There are probably others, but these are the ones I found. Which feat should be applied?

Affected Profiles:
Every chapter 2 character

Power and Abilities
Already presented in the OP, but still, we got some more

- Dark World Lightners: Resistance to SOUL Manipulation

- The Fun Gang: Accelerated Development (Grows stronger every encounter defeated with violence)

- Kris: Creation (Can create Dark Worlds, which can have an entire city), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point), Multiple Selves (Type 1 or Type 2)

- Susie: Minor Healing (via Ultimaheal), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit and pull out a giant syringe), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point)

- Ralsei: Statistics Amplification (via Fluffy Guard, boosts defense), Dimensional Storage (Can change into a nurses' outfit),

- Noelle: Magic, enhanced Accelerated Development (Grows stronger after every encounter defeated with violence, becoming even stronger than Kris, Susie and Ralsei), Ice Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Healing, limited Acrobatics (can jump large distances when scared), limited Levitation (Levitated while casting SnowGrave), Sealing

- Rejected: Kris' Time Manipulation must be removed from their profile (or made it clear that it's not theirs), as it is from the anomaly. The argument that Kris has a "save file" that we apparently overwrite is false, as it has no saved place, nor time, meaning they never saved in their life.

Affected Profiles:
Kris
Susie
Ralsei
Noelle

Lifting Strength
We got some unevaluated feats, but we had a debate about them, so why not.


Affected Profiles:
Chapter 2 DW Lighterns
Stronger Chapter 2 Characters
GIGA Queen
Thrash Machine

Extra
Kris and co.'s age should be around 16 (because some of the students have jobs)

Brought up by @Imaginym, Jevil's dialogue confirms chapter 2 end-game enemies are stronger than the fun gang (which defeated him through fighting)


TO BE EVALUATED:


FUN FACT: Minus the debates, this thread is actually barely two pages long.

Oof, well, that was tough.
By the way, with all the calculations done, and no complaints about the changes I believe we can start making the changes now.
 
Okay, wait, one more thing: can Noelle and Ralsei have solid Soul Manipulation? They are a monster and a Darkner respectively, and every enemy we've fought, which is either a monster (Susie and Berdly) or a Darkner (everyone else), attacks the soul when using magic. I ask because I didn't put Soul Manipulation on Noelle's page, and I'm wondering if I should.
 
Okay, wait, one more thing: can Noelle and Ralsei have solid Soul Manipulation? They are a monster and a Darkner respectively, and every enemy we've fought, which is either a monster (Susie and Berdly) or a Darkner (everyone else), attacks the soul when using magic. I ask because I didn't put Soul Manipulation on Noelle's page, and I'm wondering if I should.
Oh I didn't notice that.
Yes, they absolutely should have SOUL Manipulation. Ralsei "attacks" the SOUL on the tutorial on Chapter 1, and Susie can attack the SOUL too, the same goes to Berdly, so it'd be weird if Noelle was an exception.
 
CHAPTER 2 CRT - CHANGES SO FAR

Just read through the entire thread again to gather the important points regarding scaling. There were 4 or 5 debates (3 of which I was directly involved) where we discussed something rather unrelated to the CRT (Age for example), so I won't be addressing those in this summary.

Attack Potency
Nothing much on the Attack Potency side of things other than some hax-based (non-combat applicable) AP ratings.


Affected Profiles:
Every lightner (+possibly City Level with Creation)
Every darkner (update the calculations)
Noelle (+Small Bulding Level with Iceshock, + likely City Level with creation)
LW and DW Berdly (+likely City Level with creation)
Spamton (it's already applied)
LW and DW Kris (+likely City Level with creation)
GIGA Queen (+Multi-City Block Level)
Thrash Machine (+Multi-City Block Level)

Speed
We've got some new feats in regards of speed for Deltarune.




There are probably others, but these are the ones I found. Which feat should be applied?

Affected Profiles:
Every chapter 2 character

Power and Abilities
Already presented in the OP, but still, we got some more

- Dark World Lightners: Resistance to SOUL Manipulation

- The Fun Gang: Accelerated Development (Grows stronger every encounter defeated with violence)

- Kris: Creation (Can create Dark Worlds, which can have an entire city), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point), Multiple Selves (Type 1 or Type 2)

- Susie: Minor Healing (via Ultimaheal), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit and pull out a giant syringe), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point)

- Ralsei: Statistics Amplification (via Fluffy Guard, boosts defense), Dimensional Storage (Can change into a nurses' outfit),

- Noelle: Magic, enhanced Accelerated Development (Grows stronger after every encounter defeated with violence, becoming even stronger than Kris, Susie and Ralsei), Ice Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Healing, limited Acrobatics (can jump large distances when scared), limited Levitation (Levitated while casting SnowGrave), Sealing

- Rejected: Kris' Time Manipulation must be removed from their profile (or made it clear that it's not theirs), as it is from the anomaly. The argument that Kris has a "save file" that we apparently overwrite is false, as it has no saved place, nor time, meaning they never saved in their life.

Affected Profiles:
Kris
Susie
Ralsei
Noelle

Lifting Strength
We got some unevaluated feats, but we had a debate about them, so why not.


Affected Profiles:
Chapter 2 DW Lighterns
Stronger Chapter 2 Characters
GIGA Queen
Thrash Machine

Extra
Kris and co.'s age should be around 16 (because some of the students have jobs)

Brought up by @Imaginym, Jevil's dialogue confirms chapter 2 end-game enemies are stronger than the fun gang (which defeated him through fighting)


TO BE EVALUATED:


FUN FACT: Minus the debates, this thread is actually barely two pages long.

Oof, well, that was tough.
Okay, I have applied all the changes to the currently existing profiles. We need to start making new ones.

Noelle (Already done)
Queen
Thrash Machine
Swatchlings

What else?
 
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