((SPOILERS)) Deltarune Chapter 2 Upgrades/Additions

[Imaginym]

Agree with everything here

Good news! The justification link for his Energy Projection was changed. (No offense meant.) (But the text about his weapon seems left as is, for better or worse.)

He can take hits from a Darkner (Ralsei), and much like any other Darkner, any given attack from Ralsei harms the SOUL directly.

But doesn't Ralsei in the party ALWAYS attack by whipping with his scarf, unlike his bullets in the tutorial?

It is Class 10 (using alluminum), which is far more reasonable. Also, how would he carry it around? Maybe his Telekinesis?

Yeah, I'm skeptical he carries it around. Maybe via Hammerspace? But his justification for Telekinesis is his A+ Paper attack. Even assuming those are real papers & not just constructs of Magic to attack the SOUL or such, those Papers would be nowhere close to Class 10.

Yeah, that shouldn't be there whatsoever.

Well, previous discussion pointed out he can pull it off on his own even if you only FIGHT Queen, where the Plug isn't interacted with. Is that a valid basis?

It is correct. He is producing winds in the battlefield, the word "fierce" came out of your interpretation, despise the wording never implying that and giving a visual source.

Yeah, I guess so. I tend to assume the winds like those of a tornado are fierce. But I guess in this case, the description is using "tornado-like winds" to mean the shape of his attacks, rather than the strength of the winds.

Sorry for any bother.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

But doesn't Ralsei in the party ALWAYS attack by whipping with his scarf, unlike his bullets in the tutorial?

But even physical attacks are directed to the soul, as shown by Tasque Manager's whip (you take damage on your SOUL by interacting with it)

Yeah, I'm skeptical he carries it around. Maybe via Hammerspace? But his justification for Telekinesis is his A+ Paper attack. Even assuming those are real papers & not just constructs of Magic to attack the SOUL or such, those Papers would be nowhere close to Class 10.

Yeah, but he has to carry it somehow. It's either by himself, or by doing the same thing he does with the papers. I do believe he carries it, as he shows up with it without any "tool". Either way, we're probably taking a gag too serious.

Well, previous discussion pointed out he can pull it off on his own even if you only FIGHT Queen, where the Plug isn't interacted with. Is that a valid basis?

Oh, I did not know this. Wouldn't that better fit Resistance to Possession?

Sorry for any bother.

It is okay.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm still rooting for the Fun Gang scaling directly to the mechs though, as they take no less than 3 direct attacks from it and are fine afterwards. It seems Giga Queen merely had a size advantage (and a lifting strength advantage, given she can restrain them with a single hand) that required them to use the mech against her.

Nah, the Queen isn't evil, she doesn't wanna kill them, just take them out of the equation while Noelle does her thing.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Nah, the Queen isn't evil, she doesn't wanna kill them, just take them out of the equation while Noelle does her thing.

In fact, she says she sincerely liked them (excluding Ralsei, as her "likeness" are towards Lightners most likely)

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah, but he has to carry it somehow. It's either by himself, or by doing the same thing he does with the papers. I do believe he carries it, as he shows up with it without any "tool". Either way, we're probably taking a gag too serious.

Maybe he carries it with hammerspace? I think him carrying it is dubious, since we never see him carry it, seem to be suggested he's not the most physically fit. Maybe, when using it to crush the arcade machine, he pushed it off a higher surface, or had some hired help (Like the Werewires he summons in battle, or the people who made the statue, Sweet Cap'n Cakes. Or the Swatchlings, who later throw it out.) push it when it falls onto the arcade machine.

Yeah, maybe we are taking it too serious. (For what it's worth, it scales to LS for Berdly & the Swatchlings.)
I'd say use it as the basis for a Possibly rating for his LS, since it seems like he moved it about, but we don't know for sure that he moved it, & there's evidence against him being the one to do so.

Oh, I did not know this. Wouldn't that better fit Resistance to Possession?

Are the plugs Possession, rather than/in addition to Mind Manipulation?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Maybe he carries it with hammerspace?

I literally do not know what a hammerspace is.

I think him carrying it is dubious, since we never see him carry it, seem to be suggested he's not the most physically fit.

Dark World versions are far stronger, and likely their Dark Versions reflect their will onto themselves.
Susie looks cooler and is a physical monster, and can use dark magic (which she kinda is in the Light World, but I doubt she is as strong as she is in her Dark Form)
Kris has more of a knight look (Has 1 Atk and Def in the lightworld, regardless of how strong he is in the darkworld)

Either way, Berdly not being physically fit is not reeeally that relevant as a counter evidence

Are the plugs Possession, rather than/in addition to Mind Manipulation?

I mean, you are physically connecting to one's mind through direct contact with their face, instead of remotely controlling their mind, depends on how you interpret it.

 

[Drhorrible100]

Normal spamton, not neo

oh I see

 

[Armorchompy]

The plugs would be body puppetry i believe

 

[Imaginym]

I literally do not know what a hammerspace is.

Cartoony equivalent of Dimensional Storage.

Dark World versions are far stronger, and likely their Dark Versions reflect their will onto themselves.
Susie looks cooler and is a physical monster, and can use dark magic (which she kinda is in the Light World, but I doubt she is as strong as she is in her Dark Form)
Kris has more of a knight look (Has 1 Atk and Def in the lightworld, regardless of how strong he is in the darkworld)

Either way, Berdly not being physically fit is not reeeally that relevant as a counter evidence

Yet Berdly still idolizes himself as being incredibly buff with his statue, & when asked about a difference between it & him, he says he'll have features of it "in their ideal world" to Queen. I doubt he'd have need to idolize & agrandize his physique if he really was that buff; He could just show Queen his real 6-pack or such.

Plus, he lacks other LS feats, & when he's on the rollercoaster, he still says he's too worn out/weak from the Queen battle, to help the Delta Warriors, hence his seeking the help of others.
If Berdly was so worn out he could barely stand, how would he have been getting around getting help if he had to lift the giant statue of himself, too?

Dimensional Storage is probably how he carried it, since we never see how he moves.

Even if you ignore huge muscles & strength being so different from his LW self, & his character's emphasis of brain over brawn (He loves being admired for his smarts, & talks down to Kris & Susie about not being smart.), if Berdly's Dark World self is that buff, why does he talk about becoming how his statue looks as if he isn't so strong already? Where are his other LS feats?

I mean, you are physically connecting to one's mind through direct contact with their face, instead of remotely controlling their mind, depends on how you interpret it.

Fair point about that.

The plugs would be body puppetry i believe

Would Body Puppetry work considering she makes him attack using his Magic/SOUL-targeting attacks, like tornadoes? If there are other movements it makes him do, I forget which, so sorry about that.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Cartoony equivalent of Dimensional Storage.

Oh yeah, there's no evidence Berdly has that.

Yet Berdly still idolizes himself as being incredibly buff with his statue, & when asked about a difference between it & him, he says he'll have features of it "in their ideal world" to Queen. I doubt he'd have need to idolize & agrandize his physique if he really was that buff; He could just show Queen his real 6-pack or such.

Looks are irrelevant to how powerful a character is in the dark world. He said he'd have nipples in the future, he already sees himself as physically fit. Susie is far stronger in almost every aspect despise being exactly the same. This is not fair at all as a counter to his LS feat.

Plus, he lacks other LS feats, & when he's on the rollercoaster, he still says he's too worn out/weak from the Queen battle, to help the Delta Warriors, hence his seeking the help of others.
If Berdly was so worn out he could barely stand, how would he have been getting around getting help if he had to lift the giant statue of himself, too?

The statue was rescued by the butlers, as you already showed. Berdly had help this time, so it can be assumed they helped him with that, which is not the case for the first scene he appears in.

Dimensional Storage is probably how he carried it, since we never see how he moves.

This is an assumption I'm afraid.

Even if you ignore huge muscles & strength being so different from his LW self, & his character's emphasis of brain over brawn (He loves being admired for his smarts, & talks down to Kris & Susie about not being smart.), if Berdly's Dark World self is that buff, why does he talk about becoming how his statue looks as if he isn't so strong already? Where are his other LS feats?

The statue was an monument to his greatness.
Again, physique and muscles have nothing to do with actual strength in the Dark World. He is just that strong, regardless of how he looks. (Also, his whole character is pretending to be brain over brawn, he is not that smart, remember?)
He is not powerful-looking, but he can fight the entire Fun Gang by himself, which LW Berdly could never even dream of, and still, he looks the same.

 

[Comiphorous]

Spamton NEO talks about wanting to take your soul, to 'be bigger'

can Spamton get SOUL Absorption for saying that he can take your soul? or is too vague for him to have it?

Reposting since i never got an answer

 

[Imaginym]

Oh yeah, there's no evidence Berdly has that.

There's no evidence of him doing Dimensional Storage, but we never actually see him lift or throw or pick up his statue, either.

Looks are irrelevant to how powerful a character is in the dark world. He said he'd have nipples in the future, he already sees himself as physically fit.

Yes, but that still shows that the physique his statue displays is not his own; Berdly made that statue to impress Queen.
& it seems unlikely that Berdly intended for the nipples to be the core difference, rather than the giant muscles; Why make a statue to impress her if he already has those qualities?
Also, what dialogue suggests he sees himself as physically fit, as opposed to just super strong?

Susie is far stronger in almost every aspect despise being exactly the same. This is not fair at all as a counter to his LS feat.

Susie is already portrayed as strong in the Light World, though; She can lift Kris up by the collar & press them against a locker, or drag them through the hallway. Brute strength makes sense for her, but nerdy Berdly?

The statue was rescued by the butlers, as you already showed. Berdly had help this time, so it can be assumed they helped him with that, which is not the case for the first scene he appears in.

"Rescued" is a strange word, considering the Swatchlings were told by Queen it was garbage, to throw it out, & then, per those orders, they threw it in the toilet.
A Swatchling does show up on the roller coaster, but its stated contribution is "Fresh cooking!", not "Hauling over Berdly's statue".
It'd also be weird if a Swatchling went & defied Queen's order.
Still, the statue got out of the toilet & into the roller coaster somehow. It could be assumed the Swatchling didn't know about Queen's order.

That said, if an offscreen Swatchling or 2 moved the statue the first time (Like with the 1 or 2 who threw it in the mansion's toilet.), that might explain it, but I'd be skeptical Berdly helped when we don't really see him do physical stuff ever. We've seen Swatchlings help Queen with stuff before. Would they help Berdly with this, given they're working together?

This is an assumption I'm afraid.

It is, but we don't see him move the statue himself, which was built by someone other than Berdly, & was moved elsewhere by someone other than Berdly, so whether or not Berdly has Dimensional Storage, I'd hope you can forgive me saying we don't have much evidence for him lifting it.

The statue was an monument to his greatness.

"Queen!! I've been looking everywhere to show you this!! A monument to our greatness... Together."
& the statue shows an admiring Queen hanging off his arm, when the reality is that Queen is tolerant to avoidant of him.
It was to impress Queen by making her think he looked cool.

Again, physique and muscles have nothing to do with actual strength in the Dark World.

Basis? Susie is strong in the Light World, & has evidence of being burlier than Kris, Noelle or Berdly.
Other Lifting Strength feats?
Statements?

(Also, his whole character is pretending to be brain over brawn, he is not that smart, remember?)

He still belittles others to make himself feel good, he still gets straight As (By studying with Noelle.) & brags about it.
& his whole backstory, the motivation for this study, is that as a child, he got enamored about being praised for his intelligence when he won a spelling bee. He isn't that smart, but he's still motivated for praise, & what he's been working out most of his life is his brain.

He is not powerful-looking, but he can fight the entire Fun Gang by himself, which LW Berdly could never even dream of, and still, he looks the same.

That's Stamina, not Lifting Strength, & everyone is way stronger in the Dark World.
In the Dark World, Noelle can survive getting knocked into unconsciousness by Berdly, & Kris can handle similar from Susie.
But that doesn't mean we can just assume they all got insane LS improvements.
Plus, other than lifting the Holy Halbird he creates, he lacks actual feats of LS; He doesn't even use physical attacks.

Heck, there's points against Berdly's Stamina, since even if you don't FIGHT him (Meaning it happens even if you don't hit him at all.), Noelle says he looks exhausted, & Berdly's dialogue reflects that, so I'm not sure we can use the Stamina to back up his LS being higher.

Reposting since i never got an answer

I would call this a possibly or a likely, since we don't know what he was going to do with it, but it seems like a reasonable assumption.

 

[Comiphorous]

I would call this a possibly or a likely, since we don't know what he was going to do with it, but it seems like a reasonable assumption.

Yeah that souds better

 

[Armorchompy]

Reposting since i never got an answer

I think probably just more NPI since souls are an actual object in DR so you could probably just pick it up if you had NPI.

 

[Imaginym]

I think probably just more NPI since souls are an actual object in DR so you could probably just pick it up if you had NPI.

BTW, Armorchompy, if you'll forgive my asking, but do you have any opinion on the argument about Berdly that you're willing to share?
I assume my & @GodlyCharmander 's opinions on the matter are well-established at this point.

 

[Comiphorous]

I think probably just more NPI since souls are an actual object in DR so you could probably just pick it up if you had NPI.

Everyone in Undertale got 'Soul absorption' since monsters are shown (from asriel) and said to do that, im not sure why Spamton would be any different with his methods to steal someone's soul.

 

[Imaginym]

Everyone in Undertale got 'Soul absorption' since monsters are shown (from asriel) and said to do that, im not sure why Spamton would be any different with his methods to steal someone's soul.

"How does this game relate to UNDERTALE? Is it a sequel?
https://deltarune.com/help/
Please don't worry too much about that.
Essentially, this is not the world of UNDERTALE.
If you completed UNDERTALE, the ending and world are as you left it.
If everyone was happy there, the people in the UNDERTALE world will still be happy.
So, please don't worry about those characters, and that world. It will remain untouched.

To rephrase that, DELTARUNE's world is a different one.
With different characters, that have lived different lives.
A whole new story will happen...

I don't know what you call this kind of game.

It's just a game you can play after you complete UNDERTALE, if you want to.

That's all."

Thus, we can't readily assume Deltarune's world uses the same rules as Undertale. Especially since Monsters aren't after Kris's Human SOUL for power, & Spamton may not technically be a monster, since he's a Darkner.

 

[Comiphorous]

Thus, we can't readily assume Deltarune's world uses the same rules as Undertale. Especially since Monsters aren't after Kris's Human SOUL for power, & Spamton may not technically be a monster, since he's a Darkner.

I know, but since he never tells us how he does it, the only conclusion we can even close to have, is that be absorbs it, plus, he's been shown to be able to suck in the player's soul in his NEO form (and essentially eat it), when he takes up half the screen

 

[Imaginym]

I know, but since he never tells us how he does it, the only conclusion we can even close to have, is that be absorbs it, plus, he's been shown to be able to suck in the player's soul in his NEO form (and essentially eat it), when he takes up half the screen

Well, I'm already fine with it being possibly/likely Soul Absorption. Though, NPI feels like it has more evidence for it. You bringing up Undertale's Soul Asborption was in response to @Armorchompy , so I'll await his response on the matters at hand.
Pardon any bother, please, all.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean even beyond DR having possibly different rules, Spamton isn't a monster, he's a darkner possibly inhabiting a robot body

 

[Comiphorous]

Im only using Soul Absorption due to how undertale does it, maybe theres a better ability that can be substituted there. And, doesn't he already has NPI due to his magic?

 

[Imaginym]

I mean even beyond DR having possibly different rules, Spamton isn't a monster, he's a darkner possibly inhabiting a robot body

Is there a basis for assuming Darkners are a type of Monster?
Also, do you have any opinion on the argument about scaling Berdly's Lifting Strength to the statue he's never seen touching that somehow ends up as the Thrash Machine's base (Despite Berdly stating he's too exhausted to help, implying he probably didn't lift it himself) after the Swatchlings moved it, off-screen, to the castle's toilet?

 

[Comiphorous]

Is there a basis for assuming Darkners are a type of Monster?
Also, do you have any opinion on the argument about scaling Berdly's Lifting Strength to the statue he's never seen touching that somehow ends up as the Thrash Machine's base (Despite Berdly stating he's too exhausted to help, implying he probably didn't lift it himself) after the Swatchlings moved it, off-screen, to the castle's toilet?

Considering his character and everything, im really doubting Berdly moved the giant Gold statue of himself for the thrash machine.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it's likely he had someone else do it

 

[GodlyCharmander]

There's no evidence of him doing Dimensional Storage, but we never actually see him lift or throw or pick up his statue, either.

Yes. But assuming he has a hax specifically for a gag scene that he has never shown in the story in any given moment is a claim that requires far more evidence to back it up than him simply moving it somewhere else.

It's either, a completely new hax he has never shown before and after that one scene,
or he lifted it somehow.

I'd say my claim is more reasonable.

Yes, but that still shows that the physique his statue displays is not his own; Berdly made that statue to impress Queen.
& it seems unlikely that Berdly intended for the nipples to be the core difference, rather than the giant muscles; Why make a statue to impress her if he already has those qualities?
Also, what dialogue suggests he sees himself as physically fit, as opposed to just super strong?

Uhh, again, everyone is super strong in the Dark World, as I said before, Berdly can fight the entire party by himself, and take hits from Dark World Susie without much trouble. Who's to say lifting or pushing that statue is considered impressive by DW standards?

Also, what dialogue suggests he sees himself as super strong? Because he never said anything about it either, yet, you're asking me to provide evidence in the form of dialogue for my interpretation, even though yours lacks it too.

Susie is already portrayed as strong in the Light World, though; She can lift Kris up by the collar & press them against a locker, or drag them through the hallway. Brute strength makes sense for her, but nerdy Berdly?

Again, DW Berdly is strong. If he sees himself as physically fit, or Super Strong, maybe the Dark Fountain would reflect that? He does have a knight armor (which he refers himself as)

Again, there is no reason to believe pushing that statue was an impressive feat for DW Lightners. I also don't know why you assume their feats must match their LW selves??

"Rescued" is a strange word, considering the Swatchlings were told by Queen it was garbage, to throw it out, & then, per those orders, they threw it in the toilet.
A Swatchling does show up on the roller coaster, but its stated contribution is "Fresh cooking!", not "Hauling over Berdly's statue".

These are not mutually exclusive. They only stated their contribution to the Mecha, not how they got there.

It'd also be weird if a Swatchling went & defied Queen's order.
Still, the statue got out of the toilet & into the roller coaster somehow. It could be assumed the Swatchling didn't know about Queen's order.

That is true, but a Swatchling is not necessarily the one who helped Berdly to get the statue in the roller coaster, we have literally a horde of allies to assist Berdly to do so. Saying Berdly being able to carry it as a possible evidence for Dimentional Storage or as a counter-evidence for him carrying it is very iffy, and kind of baseless.

It is, but we don't see him move the statue himself, which was built by someone other than Berdly, & was moved elsewhere by someone other than Berdly, so whether or not Berdly has Dimensional Storage, I'd hope you can forgive me saying we don't have much evidence for him lifting it.

The DJ guys were in the next room, and we have no reason to believe he did it any other way too.

He did say he was "looking everywhere to show you this" to Queen, doubt he'd do so while asking someone to carry it around for him while he was looking

"Queen!! I've been looking everywhere to show you this!! A monument to our greatness... Together."
& the statue shows an admiring Queen hanging off his arm, when the reality is that Queen is tolerant to avoidant of him.
It was to impress Queen by making her think he looked cool.

That interpretation is just as valid as the previous ones, but first, you interpreted it as "he made the statue because he sees himself as muscular, and strong", then you say he did it "because he wanted to impress Queen by making her think he looked cool"

Basis? Susie is strong in the Light World, & has evidence of being burlier than Kris, Noelle or Berdly.

Susie is not nearly as strong as she is in the Dark World.

My point is:
Looks, in the Dark World, do not matter. You will be far stronger than your Light World self regardless.
And that is true with Kris, Susie, Berdly and Noelle.

Thus, Berdly doesn't need to be physically fit to perform a physically impressive (for LW standards) feat. He still has superhuman (supermonster?) strength as a DW Lightners, just like the rest of them, and again, he can take physical hits from DW Susie.

Other Lifting Strength feats?
Statements?

I should probably ask for anti-feats, actually. Why wouldn't a DW Lightner, who is granted superhuman physical characteristics upon entering the Dark World, be able to lift that?

He still belittles others to make himself feel good, he still gets straight As (By studying with Noelle.) & brags about it.
& his whole backstory, the motivation for this study, is that as a child, he got enamored about being praised for his intelligence when he won a spelling bee. He isn't that smart, but he's still motivated for praise, & what he's been working out most of his life is his brain.

Again, that is not mutually exclusive. Him preferring to "be smart" rends him incapable of performing physical feats? That is vastly unfair, unless you can provide anti-feats.

That's Stamina, not Lifting Strength, & everyone is way stronger in the Dark World.

That's a lot of things.
Durability.
Stamina.
Attack Potency.
Magic.

In the Dark World, Noelle can survive getting knocked into unconsciousness by Berdly, & Kris can handle similar from Susie.
But that doesn't mean we can just assume they all got insane LS improvements.
Plus, other than lifting the Holy Halbird he creates, he lacks actual feats of LS; He doesn't even use physical attacks.

Heck, there's points against Berdly's Stamina, since even if you don't FIGHT him (Meaning it happens even if you don't hit him at all.), Noelle says he looks exhausted, & Berdly's dialogue reflects that, so I'm not sure we can use the Stamina to back up his LS being higher.

Never did I use stamina as a main focus on my narrative, he can exchange attacks with Susie, and co, take them, all which requires incredible physical power by Light World standards. He does get physically more powerful by being a lightner in a DW, just like everyone else

But that doesn't mean we can just assume they all got insane LS improvements.

About that point specifically. What do you mean exactly? Dark World versions are not to be compared to their Light World selves, the feats they perform inside the Dark World are not desqualified by their capabilities in the Light World. So saying "he can't lift that because his Light World self can't" is not fair what-so-ever. In fact, it should be a non-factor.
Susie being Subsonic despise her "focus being brute force, not speed" is a great example of that. You see how absurd it would be if someone were to argue that?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I do admit it lacks visual evidence, but claiming "he absolutely can't because character and LW self" is really not the way to go. Still, he should get a "possibly Class 10" because we also do not have any evidence of him asking someone else to drop the statue on Queen's Arcade Machine (which I doubt her minions would agree to)

 

[Imaginym]

Spoiler: Large amounts of debate

Yes. But assuming he has a hax specifically for a gag scene that he has never shown in the story in any given moment is a claim that requires far more evidence to back it up than him simply moving it somewhere else.

Him moving it in the Thrash Machine scene isn't that much better, since he was still saying he couldn't help.

Uhh, again, everyone is super strong in the Dark World, as I said before, Berdly can fight the entire party by himself, and take hits from Dark World Susie without much trouble. Who's to say lifting or pushing that statue is considered impressive by DW standards?

Durability =/= Lifting Strength

Also, what dialogue suggests he sees himself as super strong? Because he never said anything about it either, yet, you're asking me to provide evidence in the form of dialogue for my interpretation, even though yours lacks it too.

Again, DW Berdly is strong. If he sees himself as physically fit, or Super Strong, maybe the Dark Fountain would reflect that? He does have a knight armor (which he refers himself as)

You're arguing he sees himself as physically fit, despite his priding himself on smarts & being praised for his smarts, yet you say he thinks of himself as physically fit. & sure, he might be stronger in the DW than the LW, but do we HAVE any other Lifting Strength feats for Lightners in the Dark World on a similar level?
In the Light World, other than that Berdly maybe not being scared of Susie (I don't remember exactly, but he usually just jokes about her, & he does seem to be in love with her, as opposed to being intimidated.) & being unable to carry his books with 1 arm, we don't know much about his LW physique, other than that he spends all his time studying, has a job, & volunteers at the library.

Again, there is no reason to believe pushing that statue was an impressive feat for DW Lightners.

If it's the only LS feat on that level, & it doesn't mesh with his character much.

I also don't know why you assume their feats must match their LW selves??

My mention of his LW self is in part, because if his DW physique is based at all on his LW, then he doesn't seem like he'd be super buff.

These are not mutually exclusive. They only stated their contribution to the Mecha, not how they got there.

The statue was the base for the mecha. If the Swatchling brought it, that would surely be a contribution worth mentioning.

That is true, but a Swatchling is not necessarily the one who helped Berdly to get the statue in the roller coaster, we have literally a horde of allies to assist Berdly to do so. Saying Berdly being able to carry it as a possible evidence for Dimentional Storage or as a counter-evidence for him carrying it is very iffy, and kind of baseless.

Swatchlings moved it before, & the others lack LS feats, & they don't really do stuff to warrant scaling to Swatchling in LS.

The DJ guys were in the next room, and we have no reason to believe he did it any other way too.

There was still plenty of time of them talking, so the DJ guys could've moved, but it is a little questionable if they moved it, went to the other room, & set up their boxes.
Still, even in that cutscene, we don't know how Berdly got it there.

He did say he was "looking everywhere to show you this" to Queen, doubt he'd do so while asking someone to carry it around for him while he was looking

Berdly summons Werewires to help him in his fight with Noelle & Kris, why wouldn't he have help here?

That interpretation is just as valid as the previous ones, but first, you interpreted it as "he made the statue because he sees himself as muscular, and strong", then you say he did it "because he wanted to impress Queen by making her think he looked cool"

I think you misunderstand. My interpretation is that he made the statue look muscular & strong because he wants Queen to see him that way. He wants her admiration, her praise, her respect, because she mostly just tolerates, ignores or avoids him.

Susie is not nearly as strong as she is in the Dark World.

But the story does portray like she's stronger than a typical Lightner.

My point is:
Looks, in the Dark World, do not matter. You will be far stronger than your Light World self regardless.
And that is true with Kris, Susie, Berdly and Noelle.

Thus, Berdly doesn't need to be physically fit to perform a physically impressive (for LW standards) feat. He still has superhuman (supermonster?) strength as a DW Lightners, just like the rest of them, and again, he can take physical hits from DW Susie.

Yes, Dark World versions are stronger than Light World versions, but Striking Strength/Attack Potency doesn't necessarily scale to Lifting Strength, the LS feat's alignment with Berdly's character seems questionable, if not inconsistent & there's a lack of other LS feats for Lightners in the Dark World on this level.

I should probably ask for anti-feats, actually. Why wouldn't a DW Lightner, who is granted superhuman physical characteristics upon entering the Dark World, be able to lift that?

Fallacy

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

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3. Burden of proof fallacy​

This is when someone attempts to make someone else prove a claim when the burden of proof is really on them to prove it. The burden of proof is always on the positive claim, and the person who makes the claim.

Example:

"Goku is faster than light speed because you can't prove he's not!"

In this case, the person in the example makes a claim (Goku is FTL), and without providing evidence for it himself, he asks his opponent to prove him wrong. In reality, the person who made that claim would be the one required to prove it.


You're asking for proof of a negative. You need other Lifting Strength feats.

If you really want an anti-feat, though, then what about Kris only rattling the bars of their cell, or Susie resorting to doing the puzzle to open the door, despite already taking out the guard & preferring force to puzzles; Susie is plenty burly, & should be physically amped, why didn't she just tear the door out or bend the bars open?

Again, that is not mutually exclusive. Him preferring to "be smart" rends him incapable of performing physical feats? That is vastly unfair, unless you can provide anti-feats.

Your claim is that he pretends to be brain over brawn, implying he has the muscle, but Berdly is known to spend most of his time studying, implying he doesn't spend much time doing physical activity or working out, so why would his Dark World self have a big focus on physique?
& with a lack of other Lifting Strength feats on a similar level from other Lightners in the Dark World, him lifting 8,008 kg is a bit questionable.

Never did I use stamina as a main focus on my narrative, he can exchange attacks with Susie, and co, take them, all which requires incredible physical power by Light World standards. He does get physically more powerful by being a lightner in a DW, just like everyone else

Yes, but as said, there's a lack of other Lifting Strength feats on that level by Lightners in the Dark World, AP/SS aren't necessarily comparable to Lifting Strength.
& it's not like it's a small amount; Deltarune isn't the real world obviously, & DW Lightners are amped, but the biggest real world lift is around 2,800 kg; Going from Average Human in the Light World, to 8000+ KG in the Dark World is an immense jump, even if they are amped.

So if you want to propose such a huge jump, you need other feats to back it up.

About that point specifically. What do you mean exactly? Dark World versions are not to be compared to their Light World selves, the feats they perform inside the Dark World are not desqualified by their capabilities in the Light World. So saying "he can't lift that because his Light World self can't" is not fair what-so-ever. In fact, it should be a non-factor.

If how their Dark World selves are is impacted by their Light World selves, or how their LW selves are perceived, then it would be a factor. If this were not the case, LW self would not be a factor.

Susie being Subsonic despise her "focus being brute force, not speed" is a great example of that. You see how absurd it would be if someone were to argue that?

Yeah but we KNOW Susie blocked the sound, because we're shown & told as such, & haven't we gotten several other Speed feats for the Lightners? It's more dubious here for Berdly, because we don't see it happen, we aren't told he picked it up or he pushed it off, & he other Lightners lack Lifting Strength feats on this level.
It's a matter of consistency.

I do admit it lacks visual evidence, but claiming "he absolutely can't because character and LW self" is really not the way to go. Still, he should get a "possibly Class 10" because we also do not have any evidence of him asking someone else to drop the statue on Queen's Arcade Machine (which I doubt her minions would agree to)

I'd say it's not just the lack of visual evidence, but Berdly being a character who desires to be physically strong for admiration, & otherwise, denounces strength in favor of brains. & also, even if he is stronger in the Dark World, it would be a huge jump in LS when there's a lack of other LS feats on this level for him or other Lightners, & Striking Strength & AP aren't necessarily translateable to Lifting Strength.
(& that's not accounting for non-Lightners. Ex: Ralsei acts like the Brave Ax is too heavy for him.)

That said, because we don't know if it wasn't Sweet Cap'n Cakes the statue makers who show up nearby who did it, or a Swatchling since they've moved it & help Queen with labour, or what....

....Because of that, I do agree that a "possibly Class 10" might work.
Anyone else wanna opinionate about Berdly's Lifting Strength?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Him moving it in the Thrash Machine scene isn't that much better, since he was still saying he couldn't help.

This is just further proof he is capable of doing so and further proof it isn't portrayed as an impressive feat.
We're taking it as impressive due to the numbers associated with it, but at no time does the game addresses the feat of carrying the statue as something extreme.

Durability =/= Lifting Strength

It is a physical attribute, no? My only point is that Berdly is physically stronger in the DW, and he is.

You're arguing he sees himself as physically fit, despite his priding himself on smarts & being praised for his smarts, yet you say he thinks of himself as physically fit. & sure, he might be stronger in the DW than the LW, but do we HAVE any other Lifting Strength feats for Lightners in the Dark World on a similar level?

My guy, if you can't provide any anti-feats, you're just asking "can you bring more feats to justify this feat?"

In the Light World, other than that Berdly maybe not being scared of Susie (I don't remember exactly, but he usually just jokes about her, & he does seem to be in love with her, as opposed to being intimidated.) & being unable to carry his books with 1 arm, we don't know much about his LW physique, other than that he spends all his time studying, has a job, & volunteers at the library.

His LW physique is irrelevant.

If it's the only LS feat on that level, & it doesn't mesh with his character much.

"doesn't mesh with his character" is not an argument. You're giving me zero reasons to believe a DW Berdly would not be able to do that. His LW self is irrelevant to his DW feats.

My mention of his LW self is in part, because if his DW physique is based at all on his LW, then he doesn't seem like he'd be super buff.

Why the hell would his DW physical abilities be dependent on his LW self? Again, Susie vs Berdly, would he be able to take a beating from Susie with an ax in the LW? No.
His LW physique is irrelevant.

The statue was the base for the mecha. If the Swatchling brought it, that would surely be a contribution worth mentioning.

It's Berdly's statue. (Queen's portion was thrown in the acid river). Bringing it here does not make the contribution their.
Either way, I see no reason to why Berdly couldn't do it himself.

Swatchlings moved it before, & the others lack LS feats, & they don't really do stuff to warrant scaling to Swatchling in LS.

Lacking LS feats is not an argument if you don't have anti-feats. I don't know why you keep insisting on this. I don't have to bring in new feats, you have to tell me why DW Berdly can't do what he possibly did.

And the entire fun gang is stronger than the Swatchlings, why would they not scale to them? If they do, I do have another LS feat a singular Swatchling.

There was still plenty of time of them talking, so the DJ guys could've moved, but it is a little questionable if they moved it, went to the other room, & set up their boxes.
Still, even in that cutscene, we don't know how Berdly got it there.

"Queen, I've been looking everywhere to show you this"
So he has been "everywhere", with the DJ Guys following him carrying it for him? Again, extraordinary claim with no basis.

Berdly summons Werewires to help him in his fight with Noelle & Kris, why wouldn't he have help here?

Because it was never implied he did.

I think you misunderstand. My interpretation is that he made the statue look muscular & strong because he wants Queen to see him that way. He wants her admiration, her praise, her respect, because she mostly just tolerates, ignores or avoids him.

Therefore the look of the statue is irrelevant to the debate, correct? Good. We can focus on why Berdly can't do it, which you failed to prove.

But the story does portray like she's stronger than a typical Lightner.

"stronger than a typical Lightner"?
First off, no, the story doesn't. She pretends to be a bully but she never hit anyone according to Monster Kid.
Second, are you saying LW Susie beats LW Undyne and Asgore? At the age of 1 6 ?
Here we go with the extraordinary claims.
She's stronger than your average teenager, at best.

Yes, Dark World versions are stronger than Light World versions, but Striking Strength/Attack Potency doesn't necessarily scale to Lifting Strength, the LS feat's alignment with Berdly's character seems questionable, if not inconsistent & there's a lack of other LS feats for Lightners in the Dark World on this level.

The feat was never portrayed as relevant or impressive. If the Dark World versions are stronger than Light World versions, bring up their LW selves is not an argument. That's that.
Again, "it doesn't align with Berdly's character" is not an argument. You didn't bring me reasoning for, one, why this feat is absurd by DW standards, and two, why Berdly definitely can't do it.

"

Fallacy

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

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3. Burden of proof fallacy​

This is when someone attempts to make someone else prove a claim when the burden of proof is really on them to prove it. The burden of proof is always on the positive claim, and the person who makes the claim.

Example:

"Goku is faster than light speed because you can't prove he's not!"

In this case, the person in the example makes a claim (Goku is FTL), and without providing evidence for it himself, he asks his opponent to prove him wrong. In reality, the person who made that claim would be the one required to prove it."


You're asking for proof of a negative. You need other Lifting Strength feats.

No? In your example, the claim "Goku is faster than lightspeed" has no evidence behind it, this one has.
We have two occasions where Berdly is directly implied to have carried his Statue.
Burden of Proof is on your side, not mine. We already have the feat, and the implications.
You're just saying "It doesn't mesh with the character" and asking me to bring other LS feats.

I don't have to do that, I literally don't. We have this feat. I'm asking you to bring counter-evidence to an already existing evidence

Asking for proof of a negative is asking for you to debunk something that was never proven in the first place.
Which I never did. Berdly carrying the statue is definitely implied and possible.

If you really want an anti-feat, though, then what about Kris only rattling the bars of their cell

They ripped a prison chain off the wall.

Susie resorting to doing the puzzle to open the door, despite already taking out the guard & preferring force to puzzles; Susie is plenty burly, & should be physically amped, why didn't she just tear the door out or bend the bars open?

Chapter 1 Characters, I don't wanna hear it.

Your claim is that he pretends to be brain over brawn, implying he has the muscle

Speaking of fallacies.
"

Fallacy

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"7. Non-Sequitur​

This is when someone's conclusion is not implied at all by the premise.

Example: "Goku leaves afterimages, therefore Goku is faster than light".

The person in this example starts with a true premise (Goku leaves afterimages), but then jumps to a conclusion which is in no way implied by that premise (Goku is FTL)."

This is what you're doing.
You're straight up misrepresenting my points. Him pretending to be brains over brawn does not equal him being actually brawn over brains. It just implies what it literally says, he is pretending to be brains over brawn, and that's the end of the thought.
I said this because he is actually "stupid", and I quite literally explain that in my response.

(Also, his whole character is pretending to be brain over brawn, he is not that smart, remember?)

but Berdly is known to spend most of his time studying, implying he doesn't spend much time doing physical activity or working out, so why would his Dark World self have a big focus on physique?

Thousand reasons. The dark fountain reflects what he wants to be? Maybe that, but we quite literally don't know. Which you agreed on with the statue earlier.
Again, how he looks, and he does, and what he is in the LW is irrelevant. His DW's feats are not dependent on his character or his LW physique.

& with a lack of other Lifting Strength feats on a similar level from other Lightners in the Dark World, him lifting 8,008 kg is a bit questionable.

Not impossible by any means, of course, if we saw him doing it, this debate would not have ever happened, but yeah, we gotta work with what we have.
Again, this is only impressive to us when we look at the actual numbers, but the game does not portray it as such, in fact, this is barely addressed and is done casually.

Yes, but as said, there's a lack of other Lifting Strength feats on that level by Lightners in the Dark World, AP/SS aren't necessarily comparable to Lifting Strength.

Never claimed they are comparable, just said "they are physically stronger, so there's no point in questioning their LS capabilities as it contradicts literally nothing"
Again, a lack of feats does not invalidate a new feat. We need actual reasoning for why a new feat doesn't work in the scaling. Character is a non-factor to feats.

& it's not like it's a small amount; Deltarune isn't the real world obviously, & DW Lightners are amped, but the biggest real world lift is around 2,800 kg; Going from Average Human in the Light World, to 8000+ KG in the Dark World is an immense jump, even if they are amped.

They are not "amped", they are nearly different people in terms of power. Stop bringing up their light world self, it's your worst point yet.

Bro, wanna use this logic?

I don't know, going from Athletic Human to Subsonic is too big of a jump.
I don't know, going from Average Human to Wall Level+ (+20000x difference) is pretty big of a jump
I don't know, going from a normal person to a magic user is too big of a jump.

This doesn't work. LW and DW characters are inherently different, bring up the size of the gap is not a valid argument. Two different, UNRELATED, versions of a character can have an immeasurable jump as the author pleases, if it doesn't contradict anything, then it doesn't matter.

And it really doesn't. Kris got far stronger in Chapter 2 by having a lot more HP and going to Lv 3 by the end of it (far more Atk), yet, his LW self is the exact same, no level ups, 1 ATK, therefore, their strength in the Light World is UNRELATED TO DARK WORLD'S POWERSCALING, PERIOD.

So if you want to propose such a huge jump, you need other feats to back it up.

A jump implies an initial feat. I ask you, a jump from what? DW Berdly is featless in terms of LS.

If how their Dark World selves are is impacted by their Light World selves, or how their LW selves are perceived, then it would be a factor. If this were not the case, LW self would not be a factor.

Their view, their dreams, or their state of mind might affect their DW selves. But that's headcanon territory.

As of now, there is no information regarding LW-DW relationships with Lightners. And that's the end of that.

But we do know it doesn't affect a DW Lightner's overall strength. As I explained.

Yeah but we KNOW Susie blocked the sound, because we're shown & told as such, & haven't we gotten several other Speed feats for the Lightners?

Chapter 1? No. Chapter 2, a few.

It's more dubious here for Berdly, because we don't see it happen, we aren't told he picked it up or he pushed it off, & he other Lightners lack Lifting Strength feats on this level.
It's a matter of consistency.

To ask for consistency, there must be a solid reason for why a feat doesn't work. You only ask for consistency if the feat triggers inconsistency on the scaling. But no, this is a featless character getting a possible feat, that's that.

I'd say it's not just the lack of visual evidence, but Berdly being a character who desires to be physically strong for admiration, & otherwise, denounces strength in favor of brains. & also, even if he is stronger in the Dark World, it would be a huge jump in LS when there's a lack of other LS feats on this level for him or other Lightners, & Striking Strength & AP aren't necessarily translateable to Lifting Strength.
(& that's not accounting for non-Lightners. Ex: Ralsei acts like the Brave Ax is too heavy for him.)

Character is not an argument, nor is it counter-evidence for a possible feat. Yes, a smart guy who has little interest in brute force can lift a lot of weight in fiction. If the narrative doesn't treat it as an impressive physical feat, what we think when comparing to the Real Word is irrelevant, it is not a relevant feat. Berdly's feat is irrelevant.

It is not a jump, their DW selves are separate from their LW selves. DW Berdly can't have a jump from a DIFFERENT VERSION OF HIM.

That said, because we don't know if it wasn't Sweet Cap'n Cakes the statue makers who show up nearby who did it, or a Swatchling since they've moved it & help Queen with labour, or what....

....Because of that, I do agree that a "possibly Class 10" might work.

Great, can we settle on this?

 

[Imaginym]

Long debate

Spoiler: Long debate

This is just further proof he is capable of doing so and further proof it isn't portrayed as an impressive feat.

We don't know how he moves it.

His LW physique is irrelevant.

It is if you wanna claim he sees himself as physically fit; His perception of how he sees himself would have to come from the Light World. But anyway....

"doesn't mesh with his character" is not an argument. You're giving me zero reasons to believe a DW Berdly would not be able to do that. His LW self is irrelevant to his DW feats.

Why the hell would his DW physical abilities be dependent on his LW self? Again, Susie vs Berdly, would he be able to take a beating from Susie with an ax in the LW? No.
His LW physique is irrelevant.

Because if his DW self is to be anything like his LW self, not much suggests it would be as strong as the others, let alone so much stronger by that much; Extreme physical strength never shown in the cast is not typical of how he's portrayed.

It's Berdly's statue. (Queen's portion was thrown in the acid river). Bringing it here does not make the contribution their.
Either way, I see no reason to why Berdly couldn't do it himself.

Berdly was statedly exhausted & said he couldn't help the Delta Warriors after the Queen fight, hence getting help. His extreme exhaustion suggests he was in no condition to get the statue out of the toilet, then haul it back to Queen's arena.
& what do you mean bringing the base of the mecha wouldn't make the contribution to the mecha theirs? Sure, it was made for Berdly, but he didn't build it, & if a Swatchling was involved in moving it, he didn't carry it, or at best, carried it with help.

Lacking LS feats is not an argument if you don't have anti-feats. I don't know why you keep insisting on this. I don't have to bring in new feats, you have to tell me why DW Berdly can't do what he possibly did.

& I have been telling you.

Lifting Strength

Lifting Strength is defined as the mass that an individual can lift on Earth. In other words it measures the amount of upwards force a character can produce. As such pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic, granted they are properly calculated to account for the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Berdly is not a character who screams extreme physical strength.
We haven't seen him lift, push, or carry his Lifting Strength.
Going from Unknown or Athletic Human at best to Class 10 is an enormous boost, & not some casual amount.
& having other stats doesn't necessarily translate to higher Lifting Strength.
"Hence Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general not comparable and should be evaluated separately."

And the entire fun gang is stronger than the Swatchlings, why would they not scale to them?

They are stronger than Swatchlings, but Striking Strength/Attack Potency generally can't be scaled to Lifting Strength, & they, IIRC, don't overpower the Swatchlings in ways relevant to LS.

If they do, I do have another LS feat a singular Swatchling.

That's good.

Because it was never implied he did.

& we lack implications of him moving the statue other than the assumption he moved it, when he lacks other feats on that level.

Therefore the look of the statue is irrelevant to the debate, correct? Good. We can focus on why Berdly can't do it, which you failed to prove.

No, my point was he made the statue that way to impress her with the physique of his image on it, because his physique isn't that way, yet it's implied it will be like that in his ideal world.
As for why he can't do it, its inconsistent.

"stronger than a typical Lightner"?
First off, no, the story doesn't. She pretends to be a bully but she never hit anyone according to Monster Kid.
Second, are you saying LW Susie beats LW Undyne and Asgore? At the age of 1 6 ?
Here we go with the extraordinary claims.
She's stronger than your average teenager, at best.

My mistake, she isn't stronger than adult police officers & the clearly superhuman Undyne, yes.
But Susie still has her physical strength emphasized, I'd say.

The feat was never portrayed as relevant or impressive. If the Dark World versions are stronger than Light World versions, bring up their LW selves is not an argument. That's that.

It wasn't portrayed as relevant or impressive because the point of the scene was Berdly trying to impress Queen, who just wants to avoid him. Not to show that Berdly is a physical adonis.

Again, "it doesn't align with Berdly's character" is not an argument. You didn't bring me reasoning for, one, why this feat is absurd by DW standards, and two, why Berdly definitely can't do it.

You feel it's reasonable to assume the stereotypical nerd was elevated to a level of Lifting Strength no other Lightner has shown?
Lack of other feats supporting this jump in LS. Berdly becoming exhausted even in a battle he doesn't get hit in.

No? In your example, the claim "Goku is faster than lightspeed" has no evidence behind it, this one has.
We have two occasions where Berdly is directly implied to have carried his Statue.

All that happens is Berdly's statue is dropped on an arcade machine, then Berdly descends in nearby. We don't know how the statue got there, & it was built by someone else.

We already have the feat, and the implications.

The feat is an assumption.

You're just saying "It doesn't mesh with the character" and asking me to bring other LS feats.

I don't have to do that, I literally don't. We have this feat. I'm asking you to bring counter-evidence to an already existing evidence

Asking for proof of a negative is asking for you to debunk something that was never proven in the first place.
Which I never did. Berdly carrying the statue is definitely implied and possible.

& you're asking me for anti-feats because of the IMPLICATIONS Berdly lifted the statue, when it's not confirmed he did it.

They ripped a prison chain off the wall.

That's a good feat. May be worth calculating.

The dark fountain reflects what he wants to be?

IIRC, wasn't the dialogue for this specifically about Darkners? & if it reflects what he wants to be, isn't the origin of what he wants to be his self in the Light World? & his wants involve being admired for his intellect, even if he only "pretends" to be smart.

Not impossible by any means, of course, if we saw him doing it, this debate would not have ever happened, but yeah, we gotta work with what we have.
Again, this is only impressive to us when we look at the actual numbers, but the game does not portray it as such, in fact, this is barely addressed and is done casually.

But we don't see him doing it, & the point of the scene isn't Berdly being super fit/strong (Whether he is or not.), but that he wants Queen's respect & such, which is why it isn't addressed.

Never claimed they are comparable, just said "they are physically stronger, so there's no point in questioning their LS capabilities as it contradicts literally nothing"
Again, a lack of feats does not invalidate a new feat. We need actual reasoning for why a new feat doesn't work in the scaling. Character is a non-factor to feats.

The new "feat" is an implication/assumption, is a huge jump in power, & is way above other known Lifting Strength feats, even in the Dark World.
Not to mention, Berdly carrying it in the 2nd scene has evidence against it by him saying he's very tired & worn out during the Queen scene.

I don't know, going from Athletic Human to Subsonic is too big of a jump.
I don't know, going from Average Human to Wall Level+ (+20000x difference) is pretty big of a jump

But these have other feats supporting the consistency of the rating.

This doesn't work. LW and DW characters are inherently different, bring up the size of the gap is not a valid argument. Two different, UNRELATED, versions of a character can have an immeasurable jump as the author pleases, if it doesn't contradict anything, then it doesn't matter.

I'd question that they aren't unrelated. Do the characters DW forms not take influence from their perception of themself? & Noelle knowing IceShock seems to be based on her knowledge of something from the Light World. Though I feel that I understand what you're getting at here.

A jump implies an initial feat. I ask you, a jump from what? DW Berdly is featless in terms of LS.

I'll admit, I can't think of much for this part besides his Holy Halbird, & his A+ Papers cited as the justification for his Telekinesis (LS via TK is often a thing, though they aren't necessarily corrleated.), if they have mass.

Well, if you wanna scale him to other Lightners in the Dark World, LS relevant stuff I can think of off the top of my head include:

Its arguably less relevant, being a Chapter 1 equipment, but Ralsei says about the Brave Ax, "It's a bit too heavy...", & Noelle says "(W-wow, that presence…)", which suggests it's heavy.
As a joke, being crushed under 400 bagels, before being told you can't carry that many. Presumably referring to inventory rather than LS.
Buying/Carrying/Wearing the mannequin, as well as stealing the Susie-like statue, & the Ice-E Cryptid Statue.
I may be misremembered, but Kris may have had to lift at least 1 the manhole cover to take the alternate path to the Mansion in Snowgrave Route. ("Manhole covers are often made out of cast iron, concrete or a combination of the two. This makes them inexpensive, strong, and heavy, usually weighing more than 113 kilograms (249 lb)".)
Pushing Lancer's stone statue. I haven't measured him, so these values are obviously far from exact, if Lancer had the rough volume of a human (62,000 cm3 or so.), &, while petrified, the density of granite (About 2.7 g/cm3), he would weigh approximately 167.4 kg, if my math is correct. Calculating the LS for pushing him is possible, but requires knowing friction stuff, & I'm not sure what materials to assume for the floor (Link to footage.) .
& there was also Kris, Susie & Ralsei failing to break out of Giga Queen's grip even she was damaged, had overheated, & low on battery.

Even ignoring the Brave Ax & the bagels, if Berdly is comparable to these characters, him lifting an 8.08 ton statue seems way above any of those, other than Giga Queen's grip.
"The body is a lot more resilient than you think. The human body can withstand 50 psi (pounds per square inch) and that's if it's a sudden impact. However if it's sustained pressure, the body can withstand up to 400 psi if the weight is gradually increased."
400 PSI * 1.7 m^2 = 4,688,434.96 newtons. Hardly a proper calc,. but for Lifting Strength is about halfway into Class K. Considering crushing skulls is Class K, this could be way higher, especially since it's 3 whole torsos, & Giga Queen probably is way stronger than everyone else.

To ask for consistency, there must be a solid reason for why a feat doesn't work. You only ask for consistency if the feat triggers inconsistency on the scaling. But no, this is a featless character getting a possible feat, that's that.

& you don't think the idea of him carrying a statue a huge distance in a small timeframe, in addition to getting the help of several people, while very exhausted, is strange?

If the narrative doesn't treat it as an impressive physical feat, what we think when comparing to the Real Word is irrelevant, it is not a relevant feat. Berdly's feat is irrelevant.

The narrative hardly acknowledges it as a feat, I feel; The feat isn't the point of the scene, & when we aren't told or shown Berdly lifted it, & it was made by other characters & moved by other characters.

Great, can we settle on this?

Yeah, I'm not opposed to Class 10 for this feat.

Again, sorry for any bother. Just because we don't agree at times doesn't mean I want to see you upset.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Again, sorry for any bother. Just because we don't agree at times doesn't mean I want to see you upset.

Starting with this.

Oh I'm far from upset. I might be the most impatience debater in this wiki, but you're actually being very respectful. I'm glad we can settle our differences with a peaceful debate, though.

We don't know how he moves it.

True. But he has to move it, right? We can assume he does with it by some external force (which requires an extra assumption), or that he does it by himself, which is less of an assumption.

Again, this is just a possibly Class 10.

It is if you wanna claim he sees himself as physically fit; His perception of how he sees himself would have to come from the Light World. But anyway....

Yes, fair. But physical looks don't really change from LW to DW, too. But again, looks are not really a point here.

Because if his DW self is to be anything like his LW self, not much suggests it would be as strong as the others, let alone so much stronger by that much; Extreme physical strength never shown in the cast is not typical of how he's portrayed.

Fair enough. The feat itself, as you said, it hardly acknowledged as a feat. I didn't mean to suggest Berdly is stronger than them by any means, but I meant to say: "If even Berdly can carry it, anyone can"

Berdly was statedly exhausted & said he couldn't help the Delta Warriors after the Queen fight, hence getting help. His extreme exhaustion suggests he was in no condition to get the statue out of the toilet, then haul it back to Queen's arena.
& what do you mean bringing the base of the mecha wouldn't make the contribution to the mecha theirs? Sure, it was made for Berdly, but he didn't build it, & if a Swatchling was involved in moving it, he didn't carry it, or at best, carried it with help.

We don't have enough info to discuss this. Berdly does state the statue as his contribution before it shows up on screen, implying he was the one who brought it.

& I have been telling you.

Lifting Strength

Lifting Strength is defined as the mass that an individual can lift on Earth. In other words it measures the amount of upwards force a character can produce. As such pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic, granted they are properly calculated to account for the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Berdly is not a character who screams extreme physical strength.
We haven't seen him lift, push, or carry his Lifting Strength.
Going from Unknown or Athletic Human at best to Class 10 is an enormous boost, & not some casual amount.
& having other stats doesn't necessarily translate to higher Lifting Strength.
"Hence Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general not comparable and should be evaluated separately."

It's not "Atheletic Human at best", DW Berdly starts at "Unknown", as he is separate from LW Berdly in every way.

"Unknown" to "Class 10" is not a boost. We have to discuss DW feat if we want to talk about jumps.

They are stronger than Swatchlings, but Striking Strength/Attack Potency generally can't be scaled to Lifting Strength, & they, IIRC, don't overpower the Swatchlings in ways relevant to LS.

We have to see the other way around too. Why would the Swatchlings be physically stronger than the likes of Susie? Susie could overpower them, right?

They did carry a giant arcade machine.

Doing some quick maths. Most Arcade Machines seem to be 70% hollow and made out of wood+metal

Not the case for Queen's, even post explosion, we see nothing but metal.

So,

Kris: 61px/167.95cm

Arcade height: 131px = (131/61)*167.95 = 360.679508197cm
Arcade width: 101px = (131/61)*167.95 = 278.081147541cm

Ignoring the joystick portion, and using the volume for a Rectangular prism = 27.9m³, assuming 70% hollowness = 8.73m³

Multiplying it using Iron/Steel's density = 8.73*7870 = 68.7051 Tons (Class 100)

Berdly's feat seem very tame compared to other Chapter 2 minor characters considering he is a boss.

& we lack implications of him moving the statue other than the assumption he moved it, when he lacks other feats on that level.

We don't anymore.

No, my point was he made the statue that way to impress her with the physique of his image on it, because his physique isn't that way, yet it's implied it will be like that in his ideal world.
As for why he can't do it, its inconsistent.

It's not really. As shown above.

My mistake, she isn't stronger than adult police officers & the clearly superhuman Undyne, yes.
But Susie still has her physical strength emphasized, I'd say.

Yes. Also, Undyne, in the Light World, has a Class 5 feat. Not scaling it to anyone, of course, but Class 10 DW, considering they should dwarf LW in strength is veery tame.

It wasn't portrayed as relevant or impressive because the point of the scene was Berdly trying to impress Queen, who just wants to avoid him. Not to show that Berdly is a physical adonis.

Again, the feat is treated as irrelevant.

You feel it's reasonable to assume the stereotypical nerd was elevated to a level of Lifting Strength no other Lightner has shown?
Lack of other feats supporting this jump in LS. Berdly becoming exhausted even in a battle he doesn't get hit in.

Again, the word "jump" is bothering me a lot. Luckly, you justify this by stating some LS feats.
We don't know what other Lightners are capable of, also, Lightners would scale above that feat. BECAUSE of the reasons you stated.

All that happens is Berdly's statue is dropped on an arcade machine, then Berdly descends in nearby. We don't know how the statue got there, & it was built by someone else.

"I have been looking everywhere to show you this" - Berdly
Implies he has been carrying it around, doesn't it? If he finds Queen, he wouldn't really have the time to go back to a point where he left the statue, ask for someone to carry it, and bring it there before she leaves. That's too unrealistic of a claim even for DR standards.

The feat is an assumption.

The feat is a possibility.

& you're asking me for anti-feats because of the IMPLICATIONS Berdly lifted the statue, when it's not confirmed he did it.

Yes, because if you want to argue it's not even remotely possible, you should have reasons to why it doesn't work, right?

That's a good feat. May be worth calculating.

It is labbed as superhuman on his Profile

Also

"Berdly crushes his Smart Scouter out of frustration."

A DBZ reference, but he did something that would be physically impressive, no?

IIRC, wasn't the dialogue for this specifically about Darkners? & if it reflects what he wants to be, isn't the origin of what he wants to be his self in the Light World? & his wants involve being admired for his intellect, even if he only "pretends" to be smart.

He also seems himself as a knight and "cool", according to the alleyway battle. He sees himself as a hero too, so being strong is not far fetched.

But we don't see him doing it, & the point of the scene isn't Berdly being super fit/strong (Whether he is or not.), but that he wants Queen's respect & such, which is why it isn't addressed.

Yes. But if it was something impressive, why wouldn't Toby address this

The new "feat" is an implication/assumption, is a huge jump in power, & is way above other known Lifting Strength feats, even in the Dark World.

It's possible. Not a huge jump by chapter 2 standards. I'll address the feats.

Not to mention, Berdly carrying it in the 2nd scene has evidence against it by him saying he's very tired & worn out during the Queen scene.

It is not portrayed as impressive, therefore it should not be treated as impressive.

But these have other feats supporting the consistency of the rating.

I'd question that they aren't unrelated. Do the characters DW forms not take influence from their perception of themself? & Noelle knowing IceShock seems to be based on her knowledge of something from the Light World. Though I feel that I understand what you're getting at here.[/SPOILER]

Their perception, maybe. Their actual capabilities? Never.

I'll admit, I can't think of much for this part besides his Holy Halbird, & his A+ Papers cited as the justification for his Telekinesis (LS via TK is often a thing, though they aren't necessarily corrleated.), if they have mass.

Well, if you wanna scale him to other Lightners in the Dark World, LS relevant stuff I can think of off the top of my head include:

Its arguably less relevant, being a Chapter 1 equipment, but Ralsei says about the Brave Ax, "It's a bit too heavy...", & Noelle says "(W-wow, that presence…)", which suggests it's heavy.

The Noelle dialogue doesn't address mass, so.. yeah, it's not a fair use of said line.
Ralsei says that regardless of the chapter, also, we don't know how much it weight.

As a joke, being crushed under 400 bagels, before being told you can't carry that many. Presumably referring to inventory rather than LS.

You said it.

Buying/Carrying/Wearing the mannequin, as well as stealing the Susie-like statue, & the Ice-E Cryptid Statue.

All treated as jokes, too? It's clear they all scale far past these feats.

I may be misremembered, but Kris may have had to lift at least 1 the manhole cover to take the alternate path to the Mansion in Snowgrave Route. ("Manhole covers are often made out of cast iron, concrete or a combination of the two. This makes them inexpensive, strong, and heavy, usually weighing more than 113 kilograms (249 lb)")
Pushing Lancer's stone statue. I haven't measured him, so these values are obviously far from exact, if Lancer had the rough volume of a human (62,000 cm3 or so.), &, while petrified, the density of granite (About 2.7 g/cm3), he would weigh approximately 167.4 kg, if my math is correct. Calculating the LS for pushing him is possible, but requires knowing friction stuff, & I'm not sure what materials to assume for the floor (Link to footage.) .

Again, both feats are casual, they scale far past these. Also, the first one, yes, you are misremembering I think.

& there was also Kris, Susie & Ralsei failing to break out of Giga Queen's grip even she was damaged, had overheated, & low on battery.

It's her weight + her Robot's own LS.

Even ignoring the Brave Ax & the bagels, if Berdly is comparable to these characters, him lifting an 8.08 ton statue seems way above any of those, other than Giga Queen's grip.
"The body is a lot more resilient than you think. The human body can withstand 50 psi (pounds per square inch) and that's if it's a sudden impact. However if it's sustained pressure, the body can withstand up to 400 psi if the weight is gradually increased."
400 PSI * 1.7 m^2 = 4,688,434.96 newtons. Hardly a proper calc,. but for Lifting Strength is about halfway into Class K. Considering crushing skulls is Class K, this could be way higher, especially since it's 3 whole torsos, & Giga Queen probably is way stronger than everyone else.

Obviously Queen's grip is a nonfactor here.

& you don't think the idea of him carrying a statue a huge distance in a small timeframe, in addition to getting the help of several people, while very exhausted, is strange?

It is, but it's still possible.

The narrative hardly acknowledges it as a feat, I feel; The feat isn't the point of the scene, & when we aren't told or shown Berdly lifted it, & it was made by other characters & moved by other characters.

When we have info about characters moving it, it's not treated as relevant or difficult. If Toby made it so it's a relevant physical feat, he'd have acknowledged it.

Yeah, I'm not opposed to Class 10 for this feat.

Great'o.
Again, I thought we could just use the density of Solid Waste for a Class 1 feat, but it's "scrap metal" (although I never saw the word metal thrown around by Sweet cap'n cakes?)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Now that I think about it, why did we assume it was scrap metal?

Scrap
"a small piece or amount of something, especially one that is left over after the greater part has been used."

Solid Waste is perfectly usable here, no?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Doing some quick maths. Most Arcade Machines seem to be 70% hollow and made out of wood+metal

Not the case for Queen's, even post explosion, we see nothing but metal.

So,

Kris: 61px/167.95cm

Arcade height: 131px = (131/61)*167.95 = 360.679508197cm
Arcade width: 101px = (131/61)*167.95 = 278.081147541cm

Ignoring the joystick portion, and using the volume for a Rectangular prism = 27.9m³, assuming 70% hollowness = 8.73m³

Multiplying it using Iron/Steel's density = 8.73*7870 = 68.7051 Tons (Class 100)

Doesn't this also make Berdly statue Class 100? Since it crushed the Arcade Machine?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Doesn't this also make Berdly statue Class 100? Since it crushed the Arcade Machine?

The arcade machine used in the statue scene is much, much smaller, probably to match Kris' height. Plus, momentum is a thing.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Solid Waste is perfectly usable here, no?

Doesn't the density of Solid Waste include bottles, food scraps, newspapers, appliances, and plastic bags? I doubt Sweet Cap'n Cakes used those to make the Berdly Statue

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Doesn't the density of Solid Waste include bottles, food scraps, newspapers, appliances, and plastic bags? I doubt Sweet Cap'n Cakes used those to make the Berdly Statue

They could have used any solid material to build it, though.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

They could have used any solid material to build it, though.

Sweet said that their main gig is making scrap into machines. So their scrap is probably scrap metal

 

[Imaginym]

Spoiler: More Wordy Debate

Starting with this.

Oh I'm far from upset. I might be the most impatience debater in this wiki, but you're actually being very respectful. I'm glad we can settle our differences with a peaceful debate, though.

Glad to know it.

True. But he has to move it, right? We can assume he does with it by some external force (which requires an extra assumption), or that he does it by himself, which is less of an assumption.

I would have to disagree, since, even if it might be felt as less likely, it being moved by characters known to move it on other occasions or the people who made it suggests that he doesn't HAVE to move it. I will say it's somewhat more likely because he claims he was looking for Queen everywhere to show her it, but wouldn't the simpler method be to just look for the person, then bring them to where the statue should be? As opposed to running a heavy AND gigantic object all around the city?
We don't 100% know he moved it, so I don't like the wording he HAS to move it.

Fair enough. The feat itself, as you said, it hardly acknowledged as a feat. I didn't mean to suggest Berdly is stronger than them by any means, but I meant to say: "If even Berdly can carry it, anyone can"

As is, though, no Lightner has Lifting Strength feats on this level, other than this assumed one for Berdly.

We don't have enough info to discuss this.

I wouldn't assume we lack info on Berdly's physical health after the Queen battle.
After the fight, he goes from calling for Queen, his face gets sweaty mid-speech, when it wasn't before, & he falls to his knees. & he isn't looking towards Susie when he does this.
Berdly: "Haha, just now, was nothing more than simple bravado... The truth is that wire... Already absorbed all of my succulent energy juices. Then he falls flat on his back. "Everything... getting dark..."
Susie: "What? Like, get you're, like, losing consciousness and stuff, but, Could you speak up?"
Berdly, now on his knees again: "Umm, aha, s-sorry, suddenly I... I... I'm feeling a bit better!"
Berdly, to Kris: Kris, your deep concern for me... is dextrose. But stay sanguine, my fellow bluebird. I'll find some way to help you yet!"
Berdly, when he arrives on the roller coaster! "Kris, Susie... My energy is still too low to help you fight... So I found help for you!! Behold!! Comrades!!" & his dialogue for his statue is "With a splendid base..."

While it's true Berdly was using his condition to try to get a kiss from Susie, the fact that he stammers, suddenly sweats, & falls mid-speech doesn't seem entirely planned; Sweating on command isn't exactly a common talent.
Not to mention the wire is the same kind used on the Werewires, which always have the Tired status in battle. & even after Susie leaves, he's still on his knees, acting like he can't get up to help Kris.
So even if we think his quiet speech or losing consciousness was a fakeout, he definitely is very tired.
& as he says, his energy is still too low to help them fight (Where it definitely isn't a pretense to get a kiss from Susie.), so I doubt he was in any condition to move a statue, either.

It's not "Atheletic Human at best", DW Berdly starts at "Unknown", as he is separate from LW Berdly in every way.

"Unknown" to "Class 10" is not a boost. We have to discuss DW feat if we want to talk about jumps.

Fair. Though, other Lightners in Dark World LS feats don't seem that high.

We have to see the other way around too. Why would the Swatchlings be physically stronger than the likes of Susie? Susie could overpower them, right?

Well, they are huge, & they are butlers who Queen uses for physical labour, & they can take physical hits from everyone, Susie included, yet no one is ever shown physically matches them in LS, & it's not like overcoming Durability means scaling to Lifting Strength.

Spoiler: Quick maths

They did carry a giant arcade machine.

Doing some quick maths. Most Arcade Machines seem to be 70% hollow and made out of wood+metal

Not the case for Queen's, even post explosion, we see nothing but metal.

So,

Kris: 61px/167.95cm

Arcade height: 131px = (131/61)*167.95 = 360.679508197cm
Arcade width: 101px = (131/61)*167.95 = 278.081147541cm

Ignoring the joystick portion, and using the volume for a Rectangular prism = 27.9m³, assuming 70% hollowness = 8.73m³

Multiplying it using Iron/Steel's density = 8.73*7870 = 68.7051 Tons (Class 100)

All of the metal also seems to be down on the ground, with none of the fragments facing towards the camera.
If we can't see that the insides are metal, how are we sure it isn't hollow or partially wood like most arcade machines are?

That said, while I appreciate your efforts on these maths, I do think you should publish those calculations to a blog so it can be officially evaluated.

Berdly's feat seem very tame compared to other Chapter 2 minor characters considering he is a boss.

I'd call him a Mini-Boss; He's hardly a Chapter Boss.
Still, other than the unevaluated Swatchling Arcade Machine feat (Though, the Berdly statue feat, whichever yield we use, also isn't officially evaluated.), most of the characters lack LS feats above a few hundred KG. (The exceptions are Berdly supposedly moving a statue, a Swatchling moving the Arcade Machine, & Giga Queen's Class K, possibly Class M grip.)
& if Berdly is a boss, isn't that a reason he should be ABOVE "minor characters" anyway? Especially as a Lightner in the Dark World, he should be so strong as to be above common enemies & especially if we're saying he's comparable to other characters from the Light World?

We don't anymore.

We don't lack feats... if you scale him to Swatchlings, despite that he never interacts with them, & Berdly, IIRC, doesn't use physical attacks. At best, projectile attacks.

Yes. Also, Undyne, in the Light World, has a Class 5 feat. Not scaling it to anyone, of course, but Class 10 DW, considering they should dwarf LW in strength is veery tame.

Haven't you been arguing that Light World statistics are irrelevant to Dark World statistics? If they're so irrelevant, why use a comparison between a Lightner in the LW & Lightners in the DW?

Again, the feat is treated as irrelevant.

I agree, I just feel it's treated as irrelevant because it isn't what the scene is focused on portraying, which makes me skeptical that it was trying to portray it as a feat.

We don't know what other Lightners are capable of, also,

What do you mean by this? Besides Berdly, we've seen 3 other Lightners in the Dark World

Lightners would scale above that feat. BECAUSE of the reasons you stated.

My point about him getting exhausted from a fight where he doesn't get hit is that doesn't sound like the fitness of someone who runs around a city carrying a gigantic, heavy statue.

Implies he has been carrying it around, doesn't it? If he finds Queen, he wouldn't really have the time to go back to a point where he left the statue, ask for someone to carry it, and bring it there before she leaves. That's too unrealistic of a claim even for DR standards.

Berdly asking Queen to go to where the statue will be isn't out of character for him. Especially considering text about him in the Bumper Cars fight, where he gives her the secret sign, calls Queen for help, tries to summon her, & asks her for healing, yet is ignored every time.
I don't think it'd be OoC for him to try something like that, when he's repeatedly tried & failed such things before.

The feat is a possibility.

Yes, by assuming certain things are true, it may be the case. It's a possibility.

Yes, because if you want to argue it's not even remotely possible, you should have reasons to why it doesn't work, right?

I mean, me giving such reasons is what we've been arguing about. How Berdly's physique is portrayed, the idea of him lifting it when he could hardly stand, other Lightners in the Dark World Lifting Strength feats being much lower, not physically matching Swatchlings or Gigaqueen....

It is labbed as superhuman on his Profile

Also

"Berdly crushes his Smart Scouter out of frustration."

A DBZ reference, but he did something that would be physically impressive, no?

The Lifting Strength page says about Superhuman Lifting Strength:
"Any level clearly above peak human that does not have an exact value. Effort should be made to calculate the true value based on feats, but until then this is a placeholder"

He also seems himself as a knight and "cool", according to the alleyway battle. He sees himself as a hero too, so being strong is not far fetched.

The dialogue being "Fear not, my beloved Noelle!! This valiant warrior of brave intelligence will be your knight in glow in the dark armor!"
But IIRC, he acts as a knight to Noelle because of his gratitude to her for all her help with his studies, because he thinks she's in love with him.
& "coolness" or heroicness doesn't necessarily mean physical strength. Being cool or heroic by being smart or skilled or just a good person is also possible.

Yes. But if it was something impressive, why wouldn't Toby address this

Because it's a minor part of a scene, the chapter's only been out a month, & AFAIK, Toby usually doesn't say much about individual scenes?

It is not portrayed as impressive, therefore it should not be treated as impressive.

A giant, gold-coloured statue he got for Queen isn't impressive?
A giant, gold-coloured statue that he calls "a splendid base", in a very showy, high-energy mecha combination scene isn't impressive?
I'd say the statue is meant to be seen as impressive, if not for the physique of Berdly it presents, then for its size. It is a huge statue; The size is part of why it inspires awe.

The Noelle dialogue doesn't address mass, so.. yeah, it's not a fair use of said line.

I ageee it doesn't address mass, but would say "(W-wow, that presence…)" implies something about its size. Plus, wouldn't a big or heavy battleaxe have a "presence"?

Ralsei says that regardless of the chapter, also, we don't know how much it weight.

Yeah, but if he's stronger than Chapter 2 than Chapter 1 & others are comparable, & he still can't lift it....

All treated as jokes, too? It's clear they all scale far past these feats.

The mannequin is armor you can equip. The Susie-like statue ends up in Susie's room, & she does act like she wants it, despite that it'd be stealing. Likewise, the Ice-E Cryptid Statue ends up in Kris's room, though that is more unambiguously a joke.
& while we don't know the material of either statue (& it'd probably have to be calc'd.), a mannequin is usually less than 28 kg.

Again, both feats are casual, they scale far past these. Also, the first one, yes, you are misremembering I think.

The Berdly statue would literally be hundreds of times heavier. Even casually, that's a lot more.
Decided to check footage:
On regular Pacifist runs, the manholes are inaccessible (Traffic cones for the 1st one, the 2nd you can't even get on-screen because of a cutscene that puts you in Queen's Mansion without letting you go out the way you came, & a giant toilet blocking off the 2nd half of the city if you backtrack.)
On Weird/SnowGrave Route, though, Kris does use the manholes. The first 1 is open, but the 2nd has you load into outside the Mansion's Entrance with the 2nd manhole covering its spot. Meaning Kris didn't lift the 1st manhole, but they would've had to lift the 2nd; Even if the 2nd wasn't covering the sewer entrance, we see the 2nd in place, which would imply Kris put it back where it belonged after they emerged.

It's her weight + her Robot's own LS.

Regardless, they fail to break out of it. (& an unevaluated calculation of that would say it's over 900,000 kgf, as a lowball, putting it well in excess of Berdly's LS, so even if they scaled to his LS feat, ostensibly, they wouldn't have much business breaking out of Giga Queen's grip.)

Obviously Queen's grip is a nonfactor here.

For the most part, I agree.

It is, but it's still possible.

Yes, it is still possible, that a Berdly who could hardly get off of his knees carried a statue a huge distance in a small timeframe, in addition to getting the help of several people.
Or someone else carried it. Or Dimensional Storage.

When we have info about characters moving it, it's not treated as relevant or difficult.

It's treated as manual labour for the Swatchlings. Berdly never directly says he lifts it, nor is he shown touching it just lands next to where it fell, & the next time it shows up is when Berdly can hardly stand & says he's in no condition to help, contradicting the idea he could be carrying it.

Also, I found footage of the dialogue about the statue! Yay!

"Queen told us to take out the garbage. I'd never seen a garbage that big before. Except for the dancing garbage that lives in the trash heap."
"It was a horrible statue, but the execution was very good. I would give it 2 stars... One to cover each of the nipples. It's in a better place now."

So yeah, 2 Swatchlings lifted it, & they also noted they'd never seen a garbage that big before, so it might've been heavy for them. Maybe?

If Toby made it so it's a relevant physical feat, he'd have acknowledged it.

Basis for Toby being this openly involved in power-scaling?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Spoiler: More Wordy Debate - Part 2

I would have to disagree, since, even if it might be felt as less likely, it being moved by characters known to move it on other occasions or the people who made it suggests that he doesn't HAVE to move it. I will say it's somewhat more likely because he claims he was looking for Queen everywhere to show her it, but wouldn't the simpler method be to just look for the person, then bring them to where the statue should be? As opposed to running a heavy AND gigantic object all around the city?
We don't 100% know he moved it, so I don't like the wording he HAS to move it.

Hmmmm, see, the wording meant he had to have the statue moved, not that he had to do it himself. Either way, the statue had to switch places somehow.

But your argument suggests Berdly saw Queen, and she was conveniently where the Statue currently was, which is absurd. I say he would not go to the Queen, and asks her to go see the statue instead of bring it to her, because the latter is exactly what he did. He was looking everywhere, and carrying it with him somehow.

As is, though, no Lightner has Lifting Strength feats on this level, other than this assumed one for Berdly.

Swatchlings, minor characters, have. Lightners are stronger than Darkners.

I wouldn't assume we lack info on Berdly's physical health after the Queen battle.

That is not what I meant. I meant we don't have enough info on how the statue was added as a contribution. Berdly does say it as it is his contribution, though.

Fair. Though, other Lightners in Dark World LS feats don't seem that high.

Swatchlings. Why would the Swatchlings be stronger than a DW Lightner, being which are seem as gods by Darkners?

Well, they are huge, & they are butlers who Queen uses for physical labour, & they can take physical hits from everyone, Susie included, yet no one is ever shown physically matches them in LS, & it's not like overcoming Durability means scaling to Lifting Strength.

If you're going to argue taking physical hits are not evidence for physical prowess, like you did when I brought up the same thing, I suggest you don't bring up "taking hits from Susie and everyone" as an argument for the same thing.

All of the metal also seems to be down on the ground, with none of the fragments facing towards the camera.
If we can't see that the insides are metal, how are we sure it isn't hollow or partially wood like most arcade machines are?

The likelyhood of an explosion setting all the metal downwards, is first, a weird and useless artistic choice, and second, too low for you to claim. We see pieces of the machines, there is no wood to be found, therefore we shouldn't assume it has wood. Done.

That said, while I appreciate your efforts on these maths, I do think you should publish those calculations to a blog so it can be officially evaluated.

We're discussing two unevaluated values here.

I'd call him a Mini-Boss; He's hardly a Chapter Boss.

That is still a boss.

Still, other than the unevaluated Swatchling Arcadew Machine feat (Though, the Berdly statue feat, whichever yield we use, also isn't officially evaluated.), most of the characters lack LS feats above a few hundred KG. (The exceptions are Berdly supposedly moving a statue, a Swatchling moving the Arcade Machine, & Giga Queen's Class K, possibly Class M grip.)
& if Berdly is a boss, isn't that a reason he should be ABOVE "minor characters" anyway? Especially as a Lightner in the Dark World, he should be so strong as to be above common enemies & especially if we're saying he's comparable to other characters from the Light World?

Yes, and therefore Berdly should be stronger than a Swatchling.

We don't lack feats... if you scale him to Swatchlings, despite that he never interacts with them, & Berdly, IIRC, doesn't use physical attacks. At best, projectile attacks.

You already addressed your own argument, funny enough. A character portrayed as a mini-boss wouldn't be weaker than a minion.

Haven't you been arguing that Light World statistics are irrelevant to Dark World statistics? If they're so irrelevant, why use a comparison between a Lightner in the LW & Lightners in the DW?

It is irrelevant, but the idea of a DW Lightner being physically weaker than a Light World Character is narratively ridiculous.

I agree, I just feel it's treated as irrelevant because it isn't what the scene is focused on portraying, which makes me skeptical that it was trying to portray it as a feat.

It is implied he did so, yet it's still not portrayed as something impressive. (lifting it, not the statue itself. Just a heads up because you seem to go a tangent on how the statue itself is impressive, which is not what I'm arguing against)
We have two moments where Berdly is implied to do what he did:

• First, he shows up out of nowhere after dropping his statue, says "I've been looking everywhere to show you this". The statue was dropped from the sky, and Berdly fell out of the sky, implying he was responsible for it.
• Then, at the last scene where everyone is stating their contributions, Berdly talks about the statue as if it was his, despise not having bulding it.

What do you mean by this? Besides Berdly, we've seen 3 other Lightners in the Dark World

Most feats they have are casual, no?

My point about him getting exhausted from a fight where he doesn't get hit is that doesn't sound like the fitness of someone who runs around a city carrying a gigantic, heavy statue.

You can't scale durability to LS capacity, but you can scale stamina to it, huh?...

Berdly asking Queen to go to where the statue will be isn't out of character for him. Especially considering text about him in the Bumper Cars fight, where he gives her the secret sign, calls Queen for help, tries to summon her, & asks her for healing, yet is ignored every time.
I don't think it'd be OoC for him to try something like that, when he's repeatedly tried & failed such things before.

The only problem being, that's not what he does when the situation actually happens. He so just happened to have the statue around? Nah.

Yes, by assuming certain things are true, it may be the case. It's a possibility.

Yeah.

I mean, me giving such reasons is what we've been arguing about. How Berdly's physique is portrayed, the idea of him lifting it when he could hardly stand, other Lightners in the Dark World Lifting Strength feats being much lower, not physically matching Swatchlings or Gigaqueen....

Not matching the Swatchlings feels a bit forced, tbh. Berdly is much more of a threat than the Swatchlings. And he is portrayed narratively more of an enemy than they are. This argument can goes both ways, Swatchlings are stronger than Berdly why exactly?

The Lifting Strength page says about Superhuman Lifting Strength:
"Any level clearly above peak human that does not have an exact value. Effort should be made to calculate the true value based on feats, but until then this is a placeholder"https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lifting_Strength

I see. It's still very inconsistent how he can rip a piece of iron out of the wall, but can't rip out one of the bars.

The dialogue being "Fear not, my beloved Noelle!! This valiant warrior of brave intelligence will be your knight in glow in the dark armor!"
But IIRC, he acts as a knight to Noelle because of his gratitude to her for all her help with his studies, because he thinks she's in love with him.
& "coolness" or heroicness doesn't necessarily mean physical strength. Being cool or heroic by being smart or skilled or just a good person is also possible.

We're really going into "headcanon" and "personal interpretation" territory here.

Because it's a minor part of a scene, the chapter's only been out a month, & AFAIK, Toby usually doesn't say much about individual scenes?

He already acknowledged a cheat, why would he not acknowledge a scene?

A giant, gold-coloured statue he got for Queen isn't impressive?
A giant, gold-coloured statue that he calls "a splendid base", in a very showy, high-energy mecha combination scene isn't impressive?
I'd say the statue is meant to be seen as impressive, if not for the physique of Berdly it presents, then for its size. It is a huge statue; The size is part of why it inspires awe.

Tangent about how the statue itself is impressive, that's not what I said in the slightest. The statue being carried is not impressive.

I ageee it doesn't address mass, but would say "(W-wow, that presence…)" implies something about its size. Plus, wouldn't a big or heavy battleaxe have a "presence"?

Any scary looking weapon have a presence, if you don't feel a presence on a Katana, you're tripping, and saying "wow that presence" implies something about... I don't know, its presence?

Yeah, but if he's stronger than Chapter 2 than Chapter 1 & others are comparable, & he still can't lift it....

It's flavor text used to explain why he won't equip someone else's weapon. Chapter 7, we have City Level, and Class M Ralsei (just an example), and that text might be the exact same.

The mannequin is armor you can equip. The Susie-like statue ends up in Susie's room, & she does act like she wants it, despite that it'd be stealing. Likewise, the Ice-E Cryptid Statue ends up in Kris's room, though that is more unambiguously a joke.
& while we don't know the material of either statue (& it'd probably have to be calc'd.), a mannequin is usually less than 28 kg.

See, stating multiple irrelevant feats that do not muster any challenge to the cast is not an argument.

That is like saying "Goku just destroyed a planet? Well, look at these 310 feats where he just destroyed a wall, guess that makes it impossible then!"

The Berdly statue would literally be hundreds of times heavier. Even casually, that's a lot more.
Decided to check footage:
On regular Pacifist runs, the manholes are inaccessible (Traffic cones for the 1st one, the 2nd you can't even get on-screen because of a cutscene that puts you in Queen's Mansion without letting you go out the way you came, & a giant toilet blocking off the 2nd half of the city if you backtrack.)
On Weird/SnowGrave Route, though, Kris does use the manholes. The first 1 is open, but the 2nd has you load into outside the Mansion's Entrance with the 2nd manhole covering its spot. Meaning Kris didn't lift the 1st manhole, but they would've had to lift the 2nd; Even if the 2nd wasn't covering the sewer entrance, we see the 2nd in place, which would imply Kris put it back where it belonged after they emerged.

Again, two irrelevant feats that present no challenge, stating those exists adds nothing to the debate.

Yes, it is still possible, that a Berdly who could hardly get off of his knees carried a statue a huge distance in a small timeframe, in addition to getting the help of several people.
Or someone else carried it. Or Dimensional Storage.

The last option is not viable, as it requires assuming a skill.
Someone carrying it is baseless.
Him providing the statue as a contribution is implied, so at least the first interpretation has a basis

It's treated as manual labour for the Swatchlings. Berdly never directly says he lifts it, nor is he shown touching it just lands next to where it fell, & the next time it shows up is when Berdly can hardly stand & says he's in no condition to help, contradicting the idea he could be carrying it.

Why would carry it be beyond his capabilities at the time? He is too weak to partake in a fight with the most powerful darkner in the cyber world, does that equal him being too weak to carry a statue totally unrelated to Queen's strength (Considering she scales above the swatchlings)? No, it does not.

Also, I found footage of the dialogue about the statue! Yay!

"Queen told us to take out the garbage. I'd never seen a garbage that big before. Except for the dancing garbage that lives in the trash heap."
"It was a horrible statue, but the execution was very good. I would give it 2 stars... One to cover each of the nipples. It's in a better place now."

So yeah, 2 Swatchlings lifted it, & they also noted they'd never seen a garbage that big before, so it might've been heavy for them. Maybe?

That's a conclusion not implied by the basis. Not seeing something "that big" does not equal "it was difficult for us", quite literally not related. Also, he compared the size to Trashy, who is almost human-sized so... yeah.

Basis for Toby being this openly involved in power-scaling?

That's not what I meant. Authors are aware of their character's capabilities. If he were to make a scene where a character might have done something out of their league, you'd think he'd make sure, inside the story, to make it clear that he didn't.

 

[Jaften]

The likelyhood of an explosion setting all the metal downwards, is first, a weird and useless artistic choice, and second, too low for you to claim. We see pieces of the machines, there is no wood to be found, therefore we shouldn't assume it has wood. Done.

Why would an arcade machine be made of a solid block of metal?

...Why would we ever assume that a (formerly) functioning arcade machine was a solid block of any material?

In what world does that make sense? —Not this one. That's not how arcade machines are made. That doesn't function as an arcade machine. It functions... as a inert block of material.

It makes far more sense to assume that, lacking any definitive evidence to the contrary (like, a blueprint of it), a fictional arcade machine is... made like a real arcade machine.

...Because that's logical, and reasonable, and sane.

 

[Livinmeme]

Yeah assumptions on hollow exist because we just dont assume everything that is mostly made of metal is 100 not hollow