Starting with this.
Oh I'm far from upset. I might be the most impatience debater in this wiki, but you're actually being very respectful. I'm glad we can settle our differences with a peaceful debate, though.
Glad to know it.
True. But he has to move it, right? We can assume he does with it by some external force (which requires an extra assumption), or that he does it by himself, which is less of an assumption.
I would have to disagree, since, even if it might be felt as less likely, it being moved by characters known to move it on other occasions or the people who made it suggests that he doesn't HAVE to move it. I will say it's somewhat more likely because he claims he was looking for Queen everywhere to show her it, but wouldn't the simpler method be to just look for the person, then bring them to where the statue should be? As opposed to running a heavy AND gigantic object all around the city?
We don't 100% know he moved it, so I don't like the wording he HAS to move it.
Fair enough. The feat itself, as you said, it hardly acknowledged as a feat. I didn't mean to suggest Berdly is stronger than them by any means, but I meant to say: "If even Berdly can carry it, anyone can"
As is, though, no Lightner has Lifting Strength feats on this level, other than this assumed one for Berdly.
We don't have enough info to discuss this.
I wouldn't assume we lack info on Berdly's physical health after the Queen battle.
After the fight, he goes from calling for Queen, his face gets sweaty mid-speech, when it wasn't before, & he falls to his knees. & he isn't looking towards Susie when he does this.
Berdly: "Haha, just now, was nothing more than simple bravado... The truth is that wire... Already absorbed all of my succulent energy juices. Then he falls flat on his back. "Everything... getting dark..."
Susie: "What? Like, get you're, like, losing consciousness and stuff, but, Could you speak up?"
Berdly, now on his knees again: "Umm, aha, s-sorry, suddenly I... I... I'm feeling a bit better!"
Berdly, to Kris: Kris, your deep concern for me... is dextrose. But stay sanguine, my fellow bluebird. I'll find some way to help you yet!"
Berdly, when he arrives on the roller coaster! "Kris, Susie... My energy is still too low to help you fight... So I found help for you!! Behold!! Comrades!!" & his dialogue for his statue is "With a splendid base..."
While it's true Berdly was using his condition to try to get a kiss from Susie, the fact that he stammers, suddenly sweats, & falls mid-speech doesn't seem entirely planned; Sweating on command isn't exactly a common talent.
Not to mention the wire is the same kind used on the Werewires, which always have the Tired status in battle. & even after Susie leaves, he's still on his knees, acting like he can't get up to help Kris.
So even if we think his quiet speech or losing consciousness was a fakeout, he definitely is very tired.
& as he says, his energy is still too low to help them fight (Where it definitely isn't a pretense to get a kiss from Susie.), so I doubt he was in any condition to move a statue, either.
It's not "Atheletic Human at best", DW Berdly starts at "Unknown", as he is separate from LW Berdly in every way.
"Unknown" to "Class 10" is not a boost. We have to discuss DW feat if we want to talk about jumps.
Fair. Though, other Lightners in Dark World LS feats don't seem that high.
We have to see the other way around too. Why would the Swatchlings be physically stronger than the likes of Susie? Susie could overpower them, right?
Well, they are huge, & they are butlers who Queen uses for physical labour, & they can take physical hits from everyone, Susie included, yet no one is ever shown physically matches them in LS, & it's not like overcoming Durability means scaling to Lifting Strength.
All of the metal also seems to be down on the ground, with none of the fragments facing towards the camera.
If we can't see that the insides are metal, how are we sure it isn't hollow or partially wood like most arcade machines are?
That said, while I appreciate your efforts on these maths, I do think you should publish those calculations to a blog so it can be officially evaluated.
Berdly's feat seem very tame compared to other Chapter 2 minor characters considering he is a boss.
I'd call him a Mini-Boss; He's hardly a Chapter Boss.
Still, other than the unevaluated Swatchling Arcade Machine feat (Though, the Berdly statue feat, whichever yield we use, also isn't officially evaluated.), most of the characters lack LS feats above a few hundred KG. (The exceptions are Berdly supposedly moving a statue, a Swatchling moving the Arcade Machine, & Giga Queen's Class K, possibly Class M grip.)
& if Berdly is a boss, isn't that a reason he should be ABOVE "minor characters" anyway? Especially as a Lightner in the Dark World, he should be so strong as to be above common enemies & especially if we're saying he's comparable to other characters from the Light World?
We don't lack feats... if you scale him to Swatchlings, despite that he never interacts with them, & Berdly, IIRC, doesn't use physical attacks. At best, projectile attacks.
Yes. Also, Undyne, in the Light World, has a Class 5 feat. Not scaling it to anyone, of course, but Class 10 DW, considering they should dwarf LW in strength is veery tame.
Haven't you been arguing that Light World statistics are irrelevant to Dark World statistics? If they're so irrelevant, why use a comparison between a Lightner in the LW & Lightners in the DW?
Again, the feat is treated as irrelevant.
I agree, I just feel it's treated as irrelevant because it isn't what the scene is focused on portraying, which makes me skeptical that it was trying to portray it as a feat.
We don't know what other Lightners are capable of, also,
What do you mean by this? Besides Berdly, we've seen 3 other Lightners in the Dark World
Lightners would scale above that feat. BECAUSE of the reasons you stated.
My point about him getting exhausted from a fight where he doesn't get hit is that doesn't sound like the fitness of someone who runs around a city carrying a gigantic, heavy statue.
Implies he has been carrying it around, doesn't it? If he finds Queen, he wouldn't really have the time to go back to a point where he left the statue, ask for someone to carry it, and bring it there before she leaves. That's too unrealistic of a claim even for DR standards.
Berdly asking Queen to go to where the statue will be isn't out of character for him. Especially considering text about him in the Bumper Cars fight, where he gives her the secret sign, calls Queen for help, tries to summon her, & asks her for healing, yet is ignored every time.
I don't think it'd be OoC for him to try something like that, when he's repeatedly tried & failed such things before.
The feat is a possibility.
Yes, by assuming certain things are true, it may be the case. It's a possibility.
Yes, because if you want to argue it's not even remotely possible, you should have reasons to why it doesn't work, right?
I mean, me giving such reasons is what we've been arguing about. How Berdly's physique is portrayed, the idea of him lifting it when he could hardly stand, other Lightners in the Dark World Lifting Strength feats being much lower, not physically matching Swatchlings or Gigaqueen....
It is labbed as superhuman on his Profile
Also
"Berdly crushes his Smart Scouter out of frustration."
A DBZ reference, but he did something that would be physically impressive, no?
The Lifting Strength page says about Superhuman Lifting Strength:
"Any level clearly above peak human that does not have an exact value. Effort should be made to calculate the true value based on feats, but until then this is a placeholder"
He also seems himself as a knight and "cool", according to the alleyway battle. He sees himself as a hero too, so being strong is not far fetched.
The dialogue being "Fear not, my beloved Noelle!! This valiant warrior of brave intelligence will be your knight in glow in the dark armor!"
But IIRC, he acts as a knight to Noelle because of his gratitude to her for all her help with his studies, because he thinks she's in love with him.
& "coolness" or heroicness doesn't necessarily mean physical strength. Being cool or heroic by being smart or skilled or just a good person is also possible.
Yes. But if it was something impressive, why wouldn't Toby address this
Because it's a minor part of a scene, the chapter's only been out a month, & AFAIK, Toby usually doesn't say much about individual scenes?
It is not portrayed as impressive, therefore it should not be treated as impressive.
A giant, gold-coloured statue he got for Queen isn't impressive?
A giant, gold-coloured statue that he calls "a splendid base", in a very showy, high-energy mecha combination scene isn't impressive?
I'd say the statue is meant to be seen as impressive, if not for the physique of Berdly it presents, then for its size. It is a huge statue; The size is part of why it inspires awe.
The Noelle dialogue doesn't address mass, so.. yeah, it's not a fair use of said line.
I ageee it doesn't address mass, but would say "
(W-wow, that presence…)" implies something about its size. Plus, wouldn't a big or heavy battleaxe have a "presence"?
Ralsei says that regardless of the chapter, also, we don't know how much it weight.
Yeah, but if he's stronger than Chapter 2 than Chapter 1 & others are comparable, & he still can't lift it....
All treated as jokes, too? It's clear they all scale far past these feats.
The mannequin is armor you can equip. The Susie-like statue ends up in Susie's room, & she does act like she wants it, despite that it'd be stealing. Likewise, the Ice-E Cryptid Statue ends up in Kris's room, though that is more unambiguously a joke.
& while we don't know the material of either statue (& it'd probably have to be calc'd.), a mannequin is usually less than 28 kg.
Again, both feats are casual, they scale far past these. Also, the first one, yes, you are misremembering I think.
The Berdly statue would literally be hundreds of times heavier. Even casually, that's a lot more.
Decided to check footage:
On regular Pacifist runs, the manholes are inaccessible (Traffic cones for the 1st one, the 2nd you can't even get on-screen because of a cutscene that puts you in Queen's Mansion without letting you go out the way you came, & a giant toilet blocking off the 2nd half of the city if you backtrack.)
On Weird/SnowGrave Route, though, Kris does use the manholes. The first 1 is open, but the 2nd has you load into outside the Mansion's Entrance with the 2nd manhole covering its spot. Meaning Kris didn't lift the 1st manhole, but they would've had to lift the 2nd; Even if the 2nd wasn't covering the sewer entrance, we see the 2nd in place, which would imply Kris put it back where it belonged after they emerged.
It's her weight + her Robot's own LS.
Regardless, they fail to break out of it. (
& an unevaluated calculation of that would say it's over 900,000 kgf, as a lowball, putting it well in excess of Berdly's LS, so even if they scaled to his LS feat, ostensibly, they wouldn't have much business breaking out of Giga Queen's grip.)
Obviously Queen's grip is a nonfactor here.
For the most part, I agree.
It is, but it's still possible.
Yes, it is still possible, that a Berdly who could hardly get off of his knees carried a statue a huge distance in a small timeframe, in addition to getting the help of several people.
Or someone else carried it. Or Dimensional Storage.
When we have info about characters moving it, it's not treated as relevant or difficult.
It's treated as manual labour for the Swatchlings. Berdly never directly says he lifts it, nor is he shown touching it just lands next to where it fell, & the next time it shows up is when Berdly can hardly stand & says he's in no condition to help, contradicting the idea he could be carrying it.
Also, I found footage of the dialogue about the statue! Yay!
"Queen told us to take out the garbage. I'd never seen a garbage that big before. Except for the dancing garbage that lives in the trash heap."
"It was a horrible statue, but the execution was very good. I would give it 2 stars... One to cover each of the nipples. It's in a better place now."
So yeah, 2 Swatchlings lifted it, & they also noted they'd never seen a garbage that big before, so it might've been heavy for them. Maybe?
If Toby made it so it's a relevant physical feat, he'd have acknowledged it.
Basis for Toby being this openly involved in power-scaling?