((SPOILERS)) Deltarune Chapter 2 Upgrades/Additions

[Livinmeme]

Also where the **** would be the CPU and the chips anyway?

 

[Imaginym]

Spoiler: Wordy Debate

Swatchlings, minor characters, have. Lightners are stronger than Darkners.

Except Lightners never beat Darkners through Lifting Strength: They beat them through Attack Potency/Striking Strength, or Social Influencing.
Kris didn't get out of King's grip when King lifted him off the ground, even though King was worn out, & Berdly spends the whole fight to get the plug off of him.

That is not what I meant. I meant we don't have enough info on how the statue was added as a contribution. Berdly does say it as it is his contribution, though.

Implies it's his contribution. Saying it's a splendid base is more of a description, but yeah.

Swatchlings. Why would the Swatchlings be stronger than a DW Lightner, being which are seem as gods by Darkners?

"They were like Gods to us. Our protectors. Our creators. Those who gave us purpose..."
He likens them to Gods because they created them & seemingly, the Dark Fountains, which give them life, & because many are inanimate or lifeless in the Light World & giving them purpose probably has to do with how many of them have defined parts in Lightner games.
Do the Lightners have other statements of superiority?
We've seen Darkners threaten Lightners, like the army capturing The Delta Warriors, or the Werewires being used to fight the Lightners. Or being captured & thrown into rooms in Queen's Mansion.

If you're going to argue taking physical hits are not evidence for physical prowess, like you did when I brought up the same thing, I suggest you don't bring up "taking hits from Susie and everyone" as an argument for the same thing.

I get what you mean. Just saying, we usually can't scale Striking Strength to Lifting Strength.
Meaning beating the Swatchlings in a fight isn't a basis to scale to their Lifting Strength, unless it was done in a LS-relevant manner.
As is, they smack & slash them with swords, axes, scarves & dark magic, but they don't wrestle them down.

The likelyhood of an explosion setting all the metal downwards, is first, a weird and useless artistic choice, and second, too low for you to claim. We see pieces of the machines, there is no wood to be found, therefore we shouldn't assume it has wood. Done.

Yet looking at the image, doesn't it seem all the pieces are down? Yet your assumption of 0% hollowness, all solid metal, requires pieces with their insides facing the camera.
& when we calculate buildings, we don't assume 100% solid concrete. Heck, if the arcade machine is practically 0% hollowness, how does it function? Where do the wires go? How tightly packed are the circuit boards?!

We're discussing two unevaluated values here.

I don't get your point with this.

That is still a boss.

Yes, and therefore Berdly should be stronger than a Swatchling.

Yet Lightners don't beat Darkners with Lifting Strength in combat, they don't fight using Lifting Strength, & when it does come up in a fight, they struggle, they've been threatened by Darkners, the arcade lifting feat is more than SEVENTY TIMES above Berdly's statue, & the statement likening Lightners to Gods is about their role in creating the Lightners, not being superior.
Beating something in combat

It is irrelevant, but the idea of a DW Lightner being physically weaker than a Light World Character is narratively ridiculous.

But that doesn't mean you can say they MUST BE ABOVE UNDYNE; If LW Lightners aren't relevant, then you don't factor them into the rating, just like how we don't know if Unknown = Athletic Human or such.

It is implied he did so, yet it's still not portrayed as something impressive. (lifting it, not the statue itself. Just a heads up because you seem to go a tangent on how the statue itself is impressive, which is not what I'm arguing against)

& I'm saying it isn't portrayed as impressive because the feat isn't the focus of the scene.

Most feats they have are casual, no?

Casual does not mean scaling 70 or nearly 300 times higher.

You can't scale durability to LS capacity, but you can scale stamina to it, huh?...

You're asking to scale Attack Potency to Striking Strength to Stamina.
I'm saying a guy who gets exhausted by fights he doesn't get in probably doesn't have the stamina to run around a city carrying a statue, or at least, doesn't have the stamina to go & find a bunch of people & then return carrying the statue, when he previously could hardly get off his knees.

The only problem being, that's not what he does when the situation actually happens. He so just happened to have the statue around? Nah.

& your argument, as opposed to him trying to find Queen to show her to where the statue should be -Which coincides with where he finds her.- is that he was carrying a statue many times his own size all over the city?

Not matching the Swatchlings feels a bit forced, tbh. Berdly is much more of a threat than the Swatchlings. And he is portrayed narratively more of an enemy than they are. This argument can goes both ways, Swatchlings are stronger than Berdly why exactly?

Well, they are first fought later on in the chapter. But either way, the Lightners don't really engage Darkners in Lifting Strength.

I see. It's still very inconsistent how he can rip a piece of iron out of the wall, but can't rip out one of the bars.

On this, I agree. IDK why Kris didn't break down the cell doors, but they didn't.

We're really going into "headcanon" and "personal interpretation" territory here.

How so? I quoted dialogue verbatim, & Berdly states that he believes Noelle is in love with him, & he sure acts like he thinks smarts are cool & something to be admired.

He already acknowledged a cheat, why would he not acknowledge a scene?

One is a bullet hell dev patching a very noticeable exploit, the other is giving a Word of God statement about a feat that you call "irrelevant", & which I say isn't the focus of the scene in question, anyway.

Tangent about how the statue itself is impressive, that's not what I said in the slightest. The statue being carried is not impressive.

Something not being impressive because it's not the focus of the scene doesn't mean it's a casual feat, because if they weren't trying to portray the characters as casual, then how are you saying they're casual?

Any scary looking weapon have a presence, if you don't feel a presence on a Katana, you're tripping, and saying "wow that presence" implies something about... I don't know, its presence?

"A glossy ax from a block warrior. Suitable for heroes."
No one calls it scary, except arguably, Noelle, who's often shy & has a number of fears. I guess you feel "presence" is more about Noelle finding it scary than finding its size making it have presence.

That is like saying "Goku just destroyed a planet? Well, look at these 310 feats where he just destroyed a wall, guess that makes it impossible then!"

But in this case, "Goku"'s 1-planet destroying feat is only an implication, & the others are from people who's he questionable to scale to, & his other feats of that type are tens or hundreds of times lower, & in this case, it's in a range where those are huge difference.

Again, two irrelevant feats that present no challenge, stating those exists adds nothing to the debate.

But they're the only LS feats a Lightner does themselves, other than Berdly's.

The last option is not viable, as it requires assuming a skill.

By skill, I assume you mean Dimensional Storage?

Someone carrying it is baseless.

Despite that Swatchlings carried it before, are in the mansion, & carried it to the last place it was seen in, which is in said mansion?

Why would carry it be beyond his capabilities at the time? He is too weak to partake in a fight with the most powerful darkner in the cyber world, does that equal him being too weak to carry a statue totally unrelated to Queen's strength (Considering she scales above the swatchlings)? No, it does not.

It was 4vs1, & Queen was running away. Those aren't bad options, especially if he's with 3 people who are comparable to Queen.
Yet he said he was too tired to help. & no matter your AP, you need Stamina to exert to carry things.

That's a conclusion not implied by the basis. Not seeing something "that big" does not equal "it was difficult for us", quite literally not related. Also, he compared the size to Trashy, who is almost human-sized so... yeah.

The biggest garbage you've ever seen could definitely be the heaviest you've ever lifted, & comparing it to Trashy was with Trashy as a 2nd place. A distant 2nd is still 2nd.

That's not what I meant. Authors are aware of their character's capabilities. If he were to make a scene where a character might have done something out of their league, you'd think he'd make sure, inside the story, to make it clear that he didn't.

& very often, they aren't aware, & don't consider the implications of how heavy a multi-meter pile of metal is. Authors don't know math, & such.

 

[Armorchompy]

Spoiler: WORDY DEBATE

pee poo

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why would an arcade machine be made of a solid block of metal?

...Why would we ever assume that a (formerly) functioning arcade machine was a solid block of any material?

In what world does that make sense? —Not this one. That's not how arcade machines are made. That doesn't function as an arcade machine. It functions... as a inert block of material.

It makes far more sense to assume that, lacking any definitive evidence to the contrary (like, a blueprint of it), a fictional arcade machine is... made like a real arcade machine.

...Because that's logical, and reasonable, and sane.

I assumed it was hollow already, what?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Just getting this out of the way

But in this case, "Goku"'s 1-planet destroying feat is only an implication, & the others are from people who's he questionable to scale to, & his other feats of that type are tens or hundreds of times lower, & in this case, it's in a range where those are huge difference.

they struggle, they've been threatened by Darkners, the arcade lifting feat is more than SEVENTY TIMES above Berdly's statue, & the statement likening Lightners to Gods is about their role in creating the Lightners, not being superior.
Beating something in combat

The existence of "infinite" smaller feats do not cancel out bigger feats if the smaller ones don't pose any challenge.

Spoiler: EWEDEE ADOO-DOO-ADO-DO

Except Lightners never beat Darkners through Lifting Strength: They beat them through Attack Potency/Striking Strength, or Social Influencing.
Kris didn't get out of King's grip when King lifted him off the ground, even though King was worn out, & Berdly spends the whole fight to get the plug off of him.

The King example is non-sense, Kris and co are clearly weakened, and King was healed by Ralsei
Again, if you are shown to be physically superior, it's usually assumed you're stronger in LS as well

Implies it's his contribution. Saying it's a splendid base is more of a description, but yeah.

It flat out says as if it's his. Everyone stated how they helped, but no, "only Berdly is the one who is implied"

"They were like Gods to us. Our protectors. Our creators. Those who gave us purpose..."
He likens them to Gods because they created them & seemingly, the Dark Fountains, which give them life, & because many are inanimate or lifeless in the Light World & giving them purpose probably has to do with how many of them have defined parts in Lightner games.
Do the Lightners have other statements of superiority?
We've seen Darkners threaten Lightners, like the army capturing The Delta Warriors, or the Werewires being used to fight the Lightners. Or being captured & thrown into rooms in Queen's Mansion.

"Our protectors" already agrees with the point I was trying to make.
Also, why do you ask for a second evidence to something I already provided?
Most Darkners can't 1v1 a Lightner, so threats are not really a point here.

I get what you mean. Just saying, we usually can't scale Striking Strength to Lifting Strength.
Meaning beating the Swatchlings in a fight isn't a basis to scale to their Lifting Strength, unless it was done in a LS-relevant manner.
As is, they smack & slash them with swords, axes, scarves & dark magic, but they don't wrestle them down.

Let's say Berdly feat was literal, and there was no debate on it.
How would we scale anyone to it using that rule? We would have to rely on narrative.
If one is shown to be more physically capable than the other in any given point ('cept when they are strong in just one aspect), it's safe to assume they "should be stronger than character X"

Yet looking at the image, doesn't it seem all the pieces are down? Yet your assumption of 0% hollowness, all solid metal, requires pieces with their insides facing the camera.
& when we calculate buildings, we don't assume 100% solid concrete. Heck, if the arcade machine is practically 0% hollowness, how does it function? Where do the wires go? How tightly packed are the circuit boards?!

I want to assume you read my calc wrong, but that's the third time you lied about my point
I assumed it was 70% hollow
I literally only used less than 1/3 of it's volume

I don't get your point with this.

Don't let the fact it's unevaluated influence our arguments.

Yet Lightners don't beat Darkners with Lifting Strength in combat, they don't fight using Lifting Strength, & when it does come up in a fight,

Why do you speak of this as if it was a common occurance? The only time it has happened was when they were weakened by the King, and when they were grabbed by the Queen, which you agreed it was a non-factor.
Yes. Again, here we go with this. The feats being smaller not meaning bigger feats cannot exists. They have to actively struggle with the smaller feat for it to be relevant.

But that doesn't mean you can say they MUST BE ABOVE UNDYNE; If LW Lightners aren't relevant, then you don't factor them into the rating, just like how we don't know if Unknown = Athletic Human or such.

I thought Narrative was important? The narrative do portray DW > LW

& I'm saying it isn't portrayed as impressive because the feat isn't the focus of the scene.

It was direcly implied Berdly did it, if Toby wasn't trying to portray such, he'd made it clear.

Casual does not mean scaling 70 or nearly 300 times higher.

It does. It literally does. Casual means it does not affect scaling whatsoever. It's practically the same as the Unknown rating.
Just because you lifted 10kg without any trouble doesn't make you lifting 200kg absurd. It really doesn't relate or affect the bigger feat.

You're asking to scale Attack Potency to Striking Strength to Stamina.
I'm saying a guy who gets exhausted by fights he doesn't get in probably doesn't have the stamina to run around a city carrying a statue, or at least, doesn't have the stamina to go & find a bunch of people & then return carrying the statue, when he previously could hardly get off his knees.

I'm showing that Berdly is physically capable. You're criticizing me for doing so while scaling his stamina to the fact he "shouldn't be capable of lifting it" which is just as bad.
Again, we literally don't know if this would require a lot of stamina.

In the second fight, he could very well be tired because he used a lot of magic. We don't know if carrying a statue around town (seemingly flying) would require more energy

& your argument, as opposed to him trying to find Queen to show her to where the statue should be -Which coincides with where he finds her.- is that he was carrying a statue many times his own size all over the city?

Yes. Because that's what was shown.
He finds the Queen, then drops the statue beside her. That's what we saw and there's no reason to believe this wouldn't be the case if he found her somewhere else.

Well, they are first fought later on in the chapter. But either way, the Lightners don't really engage Darkners in Lifting Strength.

Doesn't mean we can't scale them.

How so? I quoted dialogue verbatim, & Berdly states that he believes Noelle is in love with him, & he sure acts like he thinks smarts are cool & something to be admired.

How we see "cool" and "knight" not requiring strength, that's headcanon territory.

One is a bullet hell dev patching a very noticeable exploit, the other is giving a Word of God statement abou t a feat that you call "irrelevant", & which I say isn't the focus of the scene in question, anyway.

He never "patched it", he turned it into a completely new feature (love toby btw). The fact the feat is irrelevant adds to my point, if the feat was something to be alarmed about, he'd have said something, or added some funny dialogue

Something not being impressive because it's not the focus of the scene doesn't mean it's a casual feat, because if they weren't trying to portray the characters as casual, then how are you saying they're casual?

It does mean it's a casual feat. If Berdly was meant to be carrying the statue, which is a possibility, no effort was portrayed when doing so in both cases, meaning, it is casual.

"A glossy ax from a block warrior. Suitable for heroes."
No one calls it scary, except arguably, Noelle, who's often shy & has a number of fears. I guess you feel "presence" is more about Noelle finding it scary than finding its size making it have presence.

Since
When
Did
Size
Was
The
Defining
Factor
For
Presence

Literally ANYTHING can cause presence depending on who is interpretating. Why size? Because it's convenient to you? No. You have zero reason to associate presence to size. Stop it.

But they're the only LS feats a Lightner does themselves, other than Berdly's

If the feats don't require any effort for the characters, they are effectively irrelevant as a counter-argument for a bigger feat. That's like using Saitama one-shotting City levels as a counter to a possibly Continental feat

By skill, I assume you mean Dimensional Storage?

yes.

Despite that Swatchlings carried it before, are in the mansion, & carried it to the last place it was seen in, which is in said mansion?

What is this interpretation?
"Well, they carried it once, therefore all the times it moved was by them"

No. It's not.

Yeah, they carried it once. But that doesn't mean a n y t h i n g, anything you say they did with said statue afterwards is pure headcanon.

It was 4vs1, & Queen was running away. Those aren't bad options, especially if he's with 3 people who are comparable to Queen.
Yet he said he was too tired to help. & no matter your AP, you need Stamina to exert to carry things.

You need stamina to exert AP, or to take hits too. And no, taking part in a battle with someone who is stronger than you and your friends when you're out of energy is not a 'good option', far from it. Also, Queen is stronger than the three of them individually, she can fight them all at once.

The biggest garbage you've ever seen could definitely be the heaviest you've ever lifted, & comparing it to Trashy was with Trashy as a 2nd place. A distant 2nd is still 2nd.

Biggest /=/ Heaviest
Two different words, period.

They never said they struggled, therefore it shouldn't be assumed so. This is becoming really circular.

& very often, they aren't aware, & don't consider the implications of how heavy a multi-meter pile of metal is. Authors don't know math, & such.

"Authors don't know math", lmfao. Yes, sorry, forgot every Author, especially ones with a clear understanding for theorical physics (timelines), are clearly dumbasses who don't know giant piles of metal is something heavy.
God that was the worst argument I've seen so far.
Either way, you don't need math, just common sense. Authors DO consider the implications of how heavy something is just by using common sense. If you give a character a giant piece of metal to lift, you ARE aware it's super ******* heavy. Even if you don't know the actual value, unless you have some kind of disability, which I don't think Toby has.

 

[Armorchompy]

The arcade machine should be calculated by upscaling the weight of an actual arcade machine

 

[Imaginym]

Just getting this out of the way

The existence of "infinite" smaller feats do not cancel out bigger feats if the smaller ones don't pose any challenge.

I never used the term "infinite".

Spoiler: Wordy Debate

It flat out says as if it's his. Everyone stated how they helped, but no, "only Berdly is the one who is implied"

I get your point, but I will say, by the words as written, it doesn't say as such.

"Our protectors" already agrees with the point I was trying to make.

Except the rest of the quote references them being created, & being given purposes, implying the Darkners are in their Light World forms, meaning the Lightners probably weren't in the Dark World to protect them by fighting, & what would the Lightners be protecting them from? They were living in peace.

Let's say Berdly feat was literal, and there was no debate on it.
How would we scale anyone to it using that rule? We would have to rely on narrative.
If one is shown to be more physically capable than the other in any given point ('cept when they are strong in just one aspect), it's safe to assume they "should be stronger than character X"

If you wanna scale Lifting Strength, you need something that shows they match one another in the ways relevant to Lifting Strength, because the ways used for Striking Strength & Attack Potency aren't relevant for LS.

I want to assume you read my calc wrong, but that's the third time you lied about my point
I assumed it was 70% hollow
I literally only used less than 1/3 of it's volume

I swear, I misread your calc about the Arcade machine being hollow. Plus, I got a little confused, with the whole "We can't see the insides" & "it's all metal" (As opposed to being part wood.) stuff.

Why do you speak of this as if it was a common occurance? The only time it has happened was when they were weakened by the King, and when they were grabbed by the Queen, which you agreed it was a non-factor.

But there aren't many instances of them overpowering Darkners in LS either.

It does. It literally does. Casual means it does not affect scaling whatsoever. It's practically the same as the Unknown rating.
Just because you lifted 10kg without any trouble doesn't make you lifting 200kg absurd. It really doesn't relate or affect the bigger feat.

Lifting 10 kg with no effort is bog standard for regular human, & 200 kg is Athletic Human. Neither is particularly unreasonable for humanoid characters without other feats.
You're asking to scale them to 8000 kg when none of their other feats they perform themselves are even within an order of magnitude, & except for the notedly strong Undyne, & even most cars weigh several times less than that.

I'm showing that Berdly is physically capable.

By using Attack Potency, which isn't convertible to Lifting Strength.

You're criticizing me for doing so while scaling his stamina to the fact he "shouldn't be capable of lifting it" which is just as bad.

I provided examples of his Stamina, & questioned why someone with that Stamina would be able to do such a feat.
& unlike LS being often independent of AP, you do need SOME stamina to lift.

Again, we literally don't know if this would require a lot of stamina.

Running around a city carrying a statue doesn't require a lot of stamina?
If the Darkners are so high in LS, & don't need much stamina, how could they not break out of grips in other scenes?

In the second fight, he could very well be tired because he used a lot of magic. We don't know if carrying a statue around town (seemingly flying) would require more energy

He had a wire plugged into his face. The same wires Werewires have, & Werewires ALWAYS have the Tired Status in battle; Berdly was tired because he'd been exposed to the plug & being forced to fight for so long.

Yes. Because that's what was shown.

Assumed based on a statement.

Doesn't mean we can't scale them.

Then find a basis to scale them in LS that isn't based on statistics the Lifting Strength page says can't be converted to Lifting Strength, & since Swatchlings aren't fought in LS-relevant ways.

How we see "cool" and "knight" not requiring strength, that's headcanon territory.

Do you think it's too farfetched that Berdly thinks being smart is cool?
& do you think it's too farfetched that Berdly calls himself Noelle's knight because as he says, he thinks she's in love with him?

The fact the feat is irrelevant adds to my point, if the feat was something to be alarmed about, he'd have said something, or added some funny dialogue

& I'm saying that the characters didn't say anything implying dismissal or impression about the feat was because the scene was focused on portraying other things.

Literally ANYTHING can cause presence depending on who is interpretating. Why size? Because it's convenient to you? No. You have zero reason to associate presence to size. Stop it.

I don't feel that scary is a much better interpretation, since it's a weapon for heroes.

If the feats don't require any effort for the characters, they are effectively irrelevant as a counter-argument for a bigger feat. That's like using Saitama one-shotting City levels as a counter to a possibly Continental feat

I wouldn't agree on Saitama as an example; Unlike Berdly, we have seen him get worn out, or some of the Lightners, or have their LS be insufficient.

What is this interpretation?
"Well, they carried it once, therefore all the times it moved was by them"

No. It's not.

Yeah, they carried it once. But that doesn't mean a n y t h i n g, anything you say they did with said statue afterwards is pure headcanon.

You feel that The Queen's servants who we see doing physical chores, even throughout the city, helping out, doing the moving, is that implausible, because of the dialogue's implication Berdly carried it?

You need stamina to exert AP, or to take hits too. And no, taking part in a battle with someone who is stronger than you and your friends when you're out of energy is not a 'good option', far from it. Also, Queen is stronger than the three of them individually, she can fight them all at once.

Queen herself had just lost that fight, & said that with 4 of them, they would kick her ass, & immediately made a distraction to flee the fight. I doubt she was in a condition to fight the 3 of them, let alone the 4 of them. Individually, she is stronger, but I'd question her chances, against them other than Berdly, individually, after she'd already lost.

As for your earlier question on this topic of "Why would carry it be beyond his capabilities at the time?" (After the Queen fight), because he was known to be tired, & had fallen to his knees, not even standing up at the time.
How are you lifting a statue when you were having trouble standing up? (& if Queen is fought, his arm ends up damaged, too.)

Also, you say Queen scales above the Swatchlings, but why? She has them do her manual labour. You don't need to be stronger than someone in every respect to have them work for you.

Biggest /=/ Heaviest
Two different words, period.

But size & mass are often corelated.

"Authors don't know math", lmfao. Yes, sorry, forgot every Author, especially ones with a clear understanding for theorical physics (timelines), are clearly dumbasses who don't know giant piles of metal is something heavy.

Basis other than mention of timelines that Toby Fox knows material densities or physics, or considers them when making stuff or plotting cutscenes in his games?

God that was the worst argument I've seen so far.
Either way, you don't need math, just common sense. Authors DO consider the implications of how heavy something is just by using common sense. If you give a character a giant piece of metal to lift, you ARE aware it's super ******* heavy.

Fair, he probably could know how heavy it is. Yet Toby specifically doesn't show Berdly lifting it, Berdly just says he's been wanting to show it to Queen. Ostensibly, this means he's lifted it.

Anyway, I think we're both aware of where we stand on the matter & don't entirely agree on things.
However, I do agree, as previously established, that Berdly should have Possibly Class 10 LS.

Whether I agree or not, I think it might be a good idea to get the LS calc'd & published to a blog so they can be evaluated to be approved for official use on profiles & whatever scaling they may end up relevant in.

After all, I wouldn't be surprised if there's unresolved matters in this CRT, that'd be worth setting this matter aside, so as to attend to those other matters.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Anyway, I think we're both aware of where we stand on the matter & don't entirely agree on things.
However, I do agree, as previously established, that Berdly should have Possibly Class 10 LS.

Whether I agree or not, I think it might be a good idea to get the LS calc'd & published to a blog so they can be evaluated to be approved for official use on profiles & whatever scaling they may end up relevant in.

After all, I wouldn't be surprised if there's unresolved matters in this CRT, that'd be worth setting this matter aside, so as to attend to those other matters.

We can settle on this. I'm way too much out of energy to keep arguing about the semantics of the feat.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The arcade machine should be calculated by upscaling the weight of an actual arcade machine

Different materials. We could do that if we find a similar arcade machine with similar proportions and made out of metal strictly.

 

[Armorchompy]

Different materials.

Not enough evidence of this

We could do that if we find a similar arcade machine with similar proportions and made out of metal strictly.

Don't exist, there's gotta be circuity and stuff in the inside

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Not enough evidence of this

We literally see the machine destroyed by an explosion, and it's nothing but metal. Arcade machines are mostly wood.

Don't exist, there's gotta be circuity and stuff in the inside

Rip.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

And where would they get wood in the Cyber World?

 

[Armorchompy]

We literally see the machine destroyed by an explosion, and it's nothing but metal. Arcade machines are mostly wood.

Painted wood, I don't think it'd be too clear what the material is assume. But fair point that they'd struggle finding wood, however all things considered it's probably gonna be more accurate to upscale the weight of the object anyway, if a lowball- Trust me from my own experience trying to find the weight of things by pixel scaling and assuming hollowness brings results that are often way off mark

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Painted wood

Yeaaah, but mostly the wood inside still has the same color.

if a lowball- Trust me from my own experience trying to find the weight of things by pixel scaling and assuming hollowness brings results that are often way off mark

Fair.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So, should this be applied?

 

[Psychomaster35]

So, should this be applied?

Yes

 

[chosen]

I don't see any new calc unless i miss something
Will the mechas and big Spamton get via sheez size lifting strength calcs?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

We've been reviewing the chapter for an entire month.
I'll make a summary soon about the changes and see if y'all agree or disagree with the new changes. (I also need some calculations evaluated and would appreciate if the calc group member here could help)
We need to get this out of the way.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'll make a summary soon about the changes and see if y'all agree or disagree with the new changes. (I also need some calculations evaluated and would appreciate if the calc group member here could help)

psychomaster? i agree

 

[Psychomaster35]

We've been reviewing the chapter for an entire month.
I'll make a summary soon about the changes and see if y'all agree or disagree with the new changes. (I also need some calculations evaluated and would appreciate if the calc group member here could help)
We need to get this out of the way.

Can you list every calculation to be evaluated?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

CHAPTER 2 CRT - CHANGES SO FAR

Just read through the entire thread again to gather the important points regarding scaling. There were 4 or 5 debates (3 of which I was directly involved) where we discussed something rather unrelated to the CRT (Age for example), so I won't be addressing those in this summary.

Attack Potency
Nothing much on the Attack Potency side of things other than some hax-based (non-combat applicable) AP ratings.

• Most characters stay at Wall Level, but at a higher end due to recalculations on Jevil's and Lancer's feats. Ch 2. Characters scale above this ("At least Wall Level")
• Chapter 2 Top Tiers are possibly Wall Level+ due to Spamton NEO's statement about having 3x more fire power, although it's a dubius statement.
• Noelle can freeze an enemy solid, which is barely Small Bulding Level, she should scale to that.
• Noelle's SnowGrave is Multi-City Block+
• Spamton is City Level with Reality Warping for creating an entire city on his image on the background (Non-Combat Applicable)
• Lightners are possibly City Level with Creation, as any lightner is implied to be able to create a Dark Fountain through their will/determination. Cyber World, a Dark World, has a city.
• Light World Kris, Dark World Kris, Dark World Berdly and Dark World Noelle are likely City Level with Creation. We see Kris creating a Fountain on screen, Berdly was about to create one before being stopped by Ralsei (meaning he could), and Noelle was stated to be capable of doing so too.
• The Multi-Solar System argument for the dark world because it has a starry sky was debunked due to the nature of the world, with decorations pretending to be celestial bodies (such as a baseball moon), and the "stars" being at ground level when we're about to enter Queen's castle
• GIGA Queen and Thrash Machine are Multi-City Block Level

Affected Profiles:
Every lightner (+possibly City Level with Creation)
Every darkner (update the calculations)
Noelle (+Small Bulding Level with Iceshock, + likely City Level with creation)
LW and DW Berdly (+likely City Level with creation)
Spamton (it's already applied)
LW and DW Kris (+likely City Level with creation)
GIGA Queen (+Multi-City Block Level)
Thrash Machine (+Multi-City Block Level)

Speed
We've got some new feats in regards of speed for Deltarune.

• Kris dodges meows (Subsonic+)
• Kris dodges phone waves (Supersonic)

There are probably others, but these are the ones I found. Which feat should be applied?

Affected Profiles:
Every chapter 2 character

Power and Abilities
Already presented in the OP, but still, we got some more

- Dark World Lightners: Resistance to SOUL Manipulation

- The Fun Gang: Accelerated Development (Grows stronger every encounter defeated with violence)

- Kris: Creation (Can create Dark Worlds, which can have an entire city), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point), Multiple Selves (Type 1 or Type 2)

- Susie: Minor Healing (via Ultimaheal), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit and pull out a giant syringe), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point)

- Ralsei: Statistics Amplification (via Fluffy Guard, boosts defense), Dimensional Storage (Can change into a nurses' outfit),

- Noelle: Magic, enhanced Accelerated Development (Grows stronger after every encounter defeated with violence, becoming even stronger than Kris, Susie and Ralsei), Ice Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Healing, limited Acrobatics (can jump large distances when scared), limited Levitation (Levitated while casting SnowGrave), Sealing

- Rejected: Kris' Time Manipulation must be removed from their profile (or made it clear that it's not theirs), as it is from the anomaly. The argument that Kris has a "save file" that we apparently overwrite is false, as it has no saved place, nor time, meaning they never saved in their life.

Affected Profiles:
Kris
Susie
Ralsei
Noelle

Lifting Strength
We got some unevaluated feats, but we had a debate about them, so why not.

• Chapter 2 DW Lightners, and high tier Darkners should be Class 1 by being comparable to Swatchlings, who can carry a giant arcade machine casually
• Chapter 2 Characters should be possibly Class 10 by scaling above Berdly carrying his own statue (which is not seem on-screen, hence, why it's just a possibly, as we do not know how he did it)
• GIGA Queen and Thrash Machine should have Class M Lifting Strength as T.M can stop Queen's Giant Baseball with a punch, hold it for sometime, before sending it back (it weights 5700 Tons)
• GIGA Queen has Class M grip

Affected Profiles:
Chapter 2 DW Lighterns
Stronger Chapter 2 Characters
GIGA Queen
Thrash Machine

Extra
Kris and co.'s age should be around 16 (because some of the students have jobs)

Brought up by @Imaginym, Jevil's dialogue confirms chapter 2 end-game enemies are stronger than the fun gang (which defeated him through fighting)

- HA HA HA. WHAT FUN!!! YOU'RE FAST, FAST, STRONG, STRONG. BUT THERE ARE YET FASTER, YET STRONGER. THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD. SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS... LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT? UEE HEE HEE! EITHER WAY, A MISCHIEF-MISCHIEF, A CHAOS-CHAOS...! LIGHTNERS! FROM INSIDE YOUR LITTLE CELL!! TAKE ME AND DO YOUR STRONGEST---!

TO BE EVALUATED:

• Noelle's Snowgrave (Evaluated, Creation End accepted)
• GIGA Queen's final attack (Evaluated, corrected and accepted)
• GIGA Queen's grip (Evaluated, Accepted)
• Duck focken' explodes (Accepted)
• Swatchlings carry an Arcade Machine (Evaluated, Low End accepted)
• Berdly possibly carry his statue (Evaluated, Recalc accepted)

FUN FACT: Minus the debates, this thread is actually barely two pages long.

Oof, well, that was tough.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

TO BE EVALUATED:

• Noelle's Snowgrave
• GIGA Queen's final attack
• GIGA Queen's grip
• Duck focken' explodes (and they only take 1 damage for this attack)
• Swatchlings carry an Arcade Machine
• Berdly possibly carry his statue

Can you list every calculation to be evaluated?

Here.

 

[Imaginym]

Every lighter (+possibly City Level with Creation)

Typo. lighter -> lightner

- The Fun Gang: Accelerated Development (Grows stronger every fourth encounter defeated with violence)

https://deltarune.fandom.com/wiki/Stats
Every 4 encounters is for Noelle. (Specifically, ATK & Magic. She also gains 4 HP per every violent encounter, more than anyone else.)
Kris, Susie & Ralsei gain +2 HP at the end of every violent encounter, but only Susie gains an additional +1 every 2nd violent encounter.
MAG seems to go up by 1 per every 10 violent encounters for Susie & Ralsei (& as said already, every 4th violent encounter for Noelle.) but Kris NEVER gains MAG.
Notably, no one's DEF ever goes up.

- Kris: Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit)

This may be another feat/justification for Creation, albeit, on a much lower scale than creating a city.
Noelle also has it, & a behaviour difference for it, as she falls over when doing the act where she changes into a nurse's outfit, but doesn't fall over after enough violence.

- Ralsei: Statistics Amplification (via Fluffy Guard, boosts defense)

To clarify, it summons 2 orbitals around the SOUL. Their rotation can be stopped with Shift or X. Each orbital, if hit, will prevent all of the damage from 1 bullet, then disappear; The orbitals only prevents damage from bullets that hit them (Rather than hitting the SOUL) hence being able to stop the rotation being important.

Dunno if we consider that relevant or not.

- Rejected: Kris' Time Manipulation must be removed from their profile (or made it clear that it's not theirs), as it is from the anomaly. The argument that Kris has a "save file" that we apparently overwrite is false, as it has no saved place, nor time, meaning they never saved in their life.

I dunno if it was brought up, but Kris's SAVE File IS seemingly distinct from an unused one.

Image of Kris's SAVE File
Name: Kris
Level 1
No location
Time is listed as 0:00

Image of EMPTY SAVE File
Name: EMPTY
Level 0
No location
Time is listed as 0:00

Something we may consider game mechanics is that if a SAVE is made at a location with no SAVE Point, the location is listed, with --- in the field, like in both images.

The 1st SAVE Point also says:

At times, you see it flickering. The light only you can see. By second nature, you reach out, and...

This implies only the Player or SOUL ("You") can see it, but it could mean Kris.... Though I'm tempted to say that most that could be interpreted as being for Kris are ambiguous or joke-like, ex:

• You have neither fluffy boys nor mean girls with you now. Reluctantly, you are filled with the power from the cat sign.
  (The SOUL being reluctant about getting power from the cat sign instead of Ralsei or Susie, as opposed to Kris being reluctant or not being reluctant about getting power at all?)
• After defeating Berdly, a certain scent hangs in the air... You are filled with the power of chicken nuggets.
  (IDK if the SOUL can smell.)
• You have escaped from your second personalized room of the day. You are filled with the power of vacation homes.
  (The room was personalized to Kris, but a room personalized to someone else IS still a personalized room, no?)

But I don't think it's THAT strong of evidence for Kris being able to see the SAVE points, much less time travel.

Pardon any bother, please.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Typo. lighter -> lightner

https://deltarune.fandom.com/wiki/Stats
Every 4 encounters is for Noelle. (Specifically, ATK & Magic. She also gains 4 HP per every violent encounter, more than anyone else.)
Kris, Susie & Ralsei gain +2 HP at the end of every violent encounter, but only Susie gains an additional +1 every 2nd violent encounter.
MAG seems to go up by 1 per every 10 violent encounters for Susie & Ralsei (& as said already, every 4th violent encounter for Noelle.) but Kris NEVER gains MAG.
Notably, no one's DEF ever goes up.

Welp, rip. Let's put it in the description of the hax, shall we?

This may be another feat/justification for Creation, albeit, on a much lower scale than creating a city.
Noelle also has it, & a behaviour difference for it, as she falls over when doing the act where she changes into a nurse's outfit, but doesn't fall over after enough violence.

Ehhh, not enough evidence for it being creation, seems too specific, and Kris already has dimentional storage with items and stuff, just like a lot of RPG protagonists do.

I dunno if it was brought up, but Kris's SAVE File IS seemingly distinct from an unused one.

Image of Kris's SAVE File
Name: Kris
Level 1
No location
Time is listed as 0:00

Image of EMPTY SAVE File
Name: EMPTY
Level 0
No location
Time is listed as 0:00

Something we may consider game mechanics is that if a SAVE is made at a location with no SAVE Point, the location is listed, with --- in the field, like in both images.

The 1st SAVE Point also says:

At times, you see it flickering. The light only you can see. By second nature, you reach out, and...

This implies only the Player or SOUL ("You") can see it, but it could mean Kris.... Though I'm tempted to say that most that could be interpreted as being for Kris are ambiguous or joke-like, ex:

• You have neither fluffy boys nor mean girls with you now. Reluctantly, you are filled with the power from the cat sign.
  (The SOUL being reluctant about getting power from the cat sign instead of Ralsei or Susie, as opposed to Kris being reluctant or not being reluctant about getting power at all?)
• After defeating Berdly, a certain scent hangs in the air... You are filled with the power of chicken nuggets.
  (IDK if the SOUL can smell.)
• You have escaped from your second personalized room of the day. You are filled with the power of vacation homes.
  (The room was personalized to Kris, but a room personalized to someone else IS still a personalized room, no?)

But I don't think it's THAT strong of evidence for Kris being able to see the SAVE points, much less time travel.

Yeah, but the fact he never used that save since he was born remains unchanged, it is still unused, it just has a named vessel (with a level). So yeaaa, kinda redundant.

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah, but the fact he never used that save since he was born remains unchanged, it is still unused, it just has a named vessel (with a level). So yeaaa, kinda redundant.

Yeah, true. Playing Deltarune & saving shows the SAVE file's displayed time updates when a save was created, & the SAVE file denoted as EMPTY has 0:00.

So it seems like there's 2 possibilities:

A. Kris has never Saved, hence their file having 0:00 like a file that's never been Saved to before.
B. The last time Kris's SAVE was updated was at 0 hours, & 0 minutes (The SAVE system doesn't account for seconds.) & thus, Kris has a SAVE, it was just updated very after they came to be.

In my opinion, B is SLIGHTLY supported by Kris being Level 1 instead of Level 0. Of course something or someone that doesn't exist would have no level, so maybe it was recorded (Ex:Automatically?) when they came to be?

(Also, Kris MAY be a human of atypical origin if we assume the SURVEY intro is about making Kris; DR has Dark Worlds that are made with seemingly pre-existing history, why not Kris? But even I'm a bit skeptical of this.)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

A. Kris has never Saved, hence their file having 0:00 like a file that's never been Saved to before.
B. The last time Kris's SAVE was updated was at 0 hours, & 0 minutes (The SAVE system doesn't account for seconds.) & thus, Kris has a SAVE, it was just updated very after they came to be.

In my opinion, B is SLIGHTLY supported by Kris being Level 1 instead of Level 0. Of course something or someone that doesn't exist would have no level, so maybe it was recorded (Ex:Automatically?) when they came to be?

Why would you be born at Level 0? In my opinion, the fact they are Lv 1 is not really supporting either side.
Both options end up with Kris being unable to use the SAVE system, and A requires the least amount of assumptions (a negative).

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yeah, true. Playing Deltarune & saving shows the SAVE file's displayed time updates when a save was created, & the SAVE file denoted as EMPTY has 0:00.

By the way, your calc got evaluated.

 

[Imaginym]

Why would you be born at Level 0? In my opinion, the fact they are Lv 1 is not really supporting either side.

A newborn is certainly less combat capable than a 16 year old.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

A newborn is certainly less combat capable than a 16 year old.

I assume Levels don't really matter from a biology standpoint? Because we'd also have to assume Kris somewhere between level 0 and level 1 between these 16 years, and that's not how RPGs work

 

[Imaginym]

I assume Levels don't really matter from a biology standpoint? Because we'd also have to assume Kris somewhere between level 0 and level 1 between these 16 years, and that's not how RPGs work

If they're anything like the Vessel created at the start of the game, & Kris is indeed another created being (With pre-existing history, like Dark Worlds, & seemingly, their residents.), then what if they were born at Level 1?
Or there's the possibility Level 0 is just for things that have no levels for not existing.

 

[chosen]

CHAPTER 2 CRT - CHANGES SO FAR

Just read through the entire thread again to gather the important points regarding scaling. There were 4 or 5 debates (3 of which I was directly involved) where we discussed something rather unrelated to the CRT (Age for example), so I won't be addressing those in this summary.

Attack Potency
Nothing much on the Attack Potency side of things other than some hax-based (non-combat applicable) AP ratings.

• Most characters stay at Wall Level, but at a higher end due to recalculations on Jevil's and Lancer's feats. Ch 2. Characters scale above this ("At least Wall Level")
• Chapter 2 Top Tiers are possibly Wall Level+ due to Spamton NEO's statement about having 3x more fire power, although it's a dubius statement.
• Noelle can freeze an enemy solid, which is barely Small Bulding Level, she should scale to that.
• Noelle's SnowGrave is Multi-City Block+
• Spamton is City Level with Reality Warping for creating an entire city on his image on the background (Non-Combat Applicable)
• Lightners are possibly City Level with Creation, as any lightner is implied to be able to create a Dark Fountain through their will/determination. Cyber World, a Dark World, has a city.
• Light World Kris, Dark World Kris, Dark World Berdly and Dark World Noelle are likely City Level with Creation. We see Kris creating a Fountain on screen, Berdly was about to create one before being stopped by Ralsei (meaning he could), and Noelle was stated to be capable of doing so too.
• The Multi-Solar System argument for the dark world because it has a starry sky was debunked due to the nature of the world, with decorations pretending to be celestial bodies (such as a baseball moon), and the "stars" being at ground level when we're about to enter Queen's castle
• GIGA Queen and Thrash Machine scale far higher than anything in this chapter. (the actual value has yet to be evaluated, but it was calculated at Multi-City Block)

Affected Profiles:
Every lighter (+possibly City Level with Creation)
Every darkner (update the calculations)
Noelle (+Small Bulding Level with Iceshock, + likely City Level with creation)
LW and DW Berdly (+likely City Level with creation)
Spamton (it's already applied)
LW and DW Kris (+likely City Level with creation)
GIGA Queen (+Multi-City Block Level)
Thrash Machine (+Multi-City Block Level)

Speed
We've got some new feats in regards of speed for Deltarune.

• Kris dodges meows (Subsonic+)
• Kris dodges phone waves (Supersonic)

There are probably others, but these are the ones I found. Which feat should be applied?

Affected Profiles:
Every chapter 2 character

Power and Abilities
Already presented in the OP, but still, we got some more

- Dark World Lightners: Resistance to SOUL Manipulation

- The Fun Gang: Accelerated Development (Grows stronger every fourth encounter defeated with violence)

- Kris: Creation (Can create Dark Worlds, which can have an entire city), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point), Multiple Selves (Type 1 or Type 2)

- Susie: Minor Healing (via Ultimaheal), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit and pull out a giant syringe), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point)

- Ralsei: Statistics Amplification (via Fluffy Guard, boosts defense), Dimensional Storage (Can change into a nurses' outfit),

- Noelle: Magic, enhanced Accelerated Development (Grows stronger after every encounter defeated with violence), Ice Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Healing, limited Acrobatics (can jump large distances when scared), limited Levitation (Levitated while casting SnowGrave), Sealing

- Rejected: Kris' Time Manipulation must be removed from their profile (or made it clear that it's not theirs), as it is from the anomaly. The argument that Kris has a "save file" that we apparently overwrite is false, as it has no saved place, nor time, meaning they never saved in their life.

Affected Profiles:
Kris
Susie
Ralsei
Noelle

Lifting Strength
We got some unevaluated feats, but we had a debate about them, so why not.

• Chapter 2 DW Lightners, and high tier Darkners should be Class 1 by being comparable to Swatchlings, who can carry a giant arcade machine casually
• Chapter 2 Characters should be possibly Class 10 by scaling above Berdly carrying his own statue (which is not seem on-screen, hence, why it's just a possibly, as we do not know how he did it)
• GIGA Queen and Thrash Machine should have Class M Lifting Strength as T.M can stop Queen's Giant Baseball with a punch, hold it for sometime, before sending it back (it weights 5700 Tons)
• GIGA Queen has Class M grip

Affected Profiles:
Chapter 2 DW Lighterns
Stronger Chapter 2 Characters
GIGA Queen
Thrash Machine

Extra
Kris and co.'s age should be around 16 (because some of the students have jobs)

Brought up by @Imaginym, Jevil's dialogue confirms chapter 2 end-game enemies are stronger than the fun gang (which defeated him through fighting)


TO BE EVALUATED:

• Noelle's Snowgrave (Evaluated, Creation End accepted)
• GIGA Queen's final attack
• GIGA Queen's grip (Evaluated, Accepted)
• Duck focken' explodes (and they only take 1 damage for this attack)
• Swatchlings carry an Arcade Machine (Evaluated, Low End accepted)
• Berdly possibly carry his statue (Evaluated, Recalc accepted)

FUN FACT: Minus the debates, this thread is actually barely two pages long.

Oof, well, that was tough.

Very nice but we also need Spamton ne-o lifting strength via sheer size
Rest is good

 

[Armorchompy]

You can't calc LS from sheer size

 

[chosen]

You can't calc LS from sheer size

I thought you can
You use the height formula based on sheer size and you can use for ls

 

[Armorchompy]

I thought you can
You use the height formula based on sheer size and you can use for ls

"Lifting Strength should not be calculated from size. While characters have to lift more bodyweight, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. There is no way of telling how much more that is."

 

[chosen]

"Lifting Strength should not be calculated from size. While characters have to lift more bodyweight, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. There is no way of telling how much more that is."

Oh thought it can be calculated from size since seem some profiles to have this basis
O well

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh thought it can be calculated from size since seem some profiles to have this basis

old ones, usually. Plus, a generic "superhuman via sheer size" is fine

 

[GodlyCharmander]

CHAPTER 2 CRT - CHANGES SO FAR

Just read through the entire thread again to gather the important points regarding scaling. There were 4 or 5 debates (3 of which I was directly involved) where we discussed something rather unrelated to the CRT (Age for example), so I won't be addressing those in this summary.

Attack Potency
Nothing much on the Attack Potency side of things other than some hax-based (non-combat applicable) AP ratings.

• Most characters stay at Wall Level, but at a higher end due to recalculations on Jevil's and Lancer's feats. Ch 2. Characters scale above this ("At least Wall Level")
• Chapter 2 Top Tiers are possibly Wall Level+ due to Spamton NEO's statement about having 3x more fire power, although it's a dubius statement.
• Noelle can freeze an enemy solid, which is barely Small Bulding Level, she should scale to that.
• Noelle's SnowGrave is Multi-City Block+
• Spamton is City Level with Reality Warping for creating an entire city on his image on the background (Non-Combat Applicable)
• Lightners are possibly City Level with Creation, as any lightner is implied to be able to create a Dark Fountain through their will/determination. Cyber World, a Dark World, has a city.
• Light World Kris, Dark World Kris, Dark World Berdly and Dark World Noelle are likely City Level with Creation. We see Kris creating a Fountain on screen, Berdly was about to create one before being stopped by Ralsei (meaning he could), and Noelle was stated to be capable of doing so too.
• The Multi-Solar System argument for the dark world because it has a starry sky was debunked due to the nature of the world, with decorations pretending to be celestial bodies (such as a baseball moon), and the "stars" being at ground level when we're about to enter Queen's castle
• GIGA Queen and Thrash Machine scale far higher than anything in this chapter. (the actual value has yet to be evaluated, but it was calculated at Multi-City Block)

Affected Profiles:
Every lightner (+possibly City Level with Creation)
Every darkner (update the calculations)
Noelle (+Small Bulding Level with Iceshock, + likely City Level with creation)
LW and DW Berdly (+likely City Level with creation)
Spamton (it's already applied)
LW and DW Kris (+likely City Level with creation)
GIGA Queen (+Multi-City Block Level)
Thrash Machine (+Multi-City Block Level)

Speed
We've got some new feats in regards of speed for Deltarune.

• Kris dodges meows (Subsonic+)
• Kris dodges phone waves (Supersonic)

There are probably others, but these are the ones I found. Which feat should be applied?

Affected Profiles:
Every chapter 2 character

Power and Abilities
Already presented in the OP, but still, we got some more

- Dark World Lightners: Resistance to SOUL Manipulation

- The Fun Gang: Accelerated Development (Grows stronger every encounter defeated with violence)

- Kris: Creation (Can create Dark Worlds, which can have an entire city), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point), Multiple Selves (Type 1 or Type 2)

- Susie: Minor Healing (via Ultimaheal), Dimensional Storage (Can quickly change into a nurses' outfit and pull out a giant syringe), Limited Dimensional Travel (Can freely travel to a Dark World through any entry point)

- Ralsei: Statistics Amplification (via Fluffy Guard, boosts defense), Dimensional Storage (Can change into a nurses' outfit),

- Noelle: Magic, enhanced Accelerated Development (Grows stronger after every encounter defeated with violence, becoming even stronger than Kris, Susie and Ralsei), Ice Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Healing, limited Acrobatics (can jump large distances when scared), limited Levitation (Levitated while casting SnowGrave), Sealing

- Rejected: Kris' Time Manipulation must be removed from their profile (or made it clear that it's not theirs), as it is from the anomaly. The argument that Kris has a "save file" that we apparently overwrite is false, as it has no saved place, nor time, meaning they never saved in their life.

Affected Profiles:
Kris
Susie
Ralsei
Noelle

Lifting Strength
We got some unevaluated feats, but we had a debate about them, so why not.

• Chapter 2 DW Lightners, and high tier Darkners should be Class 1 by being comparable to Swatchlings, who can carry a giant arcade machine casually
• Chapter 2 Characters should be possibly Class 10 by scaling above Berdly carrying his own statue (which is not seem on-screen, hence, why it's just a possibly, as we do not know how he did it)
• GIGA Queen and Thrash Machine should have Class M Lifting Strength as T.M can stop Queen's Giant Baseball with a punch, hold it for sometime, before sending it back (it weights 5700 Tons)
• GIGA Queen has Class M grip

Affected Profiles:
Chapter 2 DW Lighterns
Stronger Chapter 2 Characters
GIGA Queen
Thrash Machine

Extra
Kris and co.'s age should be around 16 (because some of the students have jobs)

Brought up by @Imaginym, Jevil's dialogue confirms chapter 2 end-game enemies are stronger than the fun gang (which defeated him through fighting)


TO BE EVALUATED:

• Noelle's Snowgrave (Evaluated, Creation End accepted)
• GIGA Queen's final attack
• GIGA Queen's grip (Evaluated, Accepted)
• Duck focken' explodes (and they only take 1 damage for this attack)
• Swatchlings carry an Arcade Machine (Evaluated, Low End accepted)
• Berdly possibly carry his statue (Evaluated, Recalc accepted)

FUN FACT: Minus the debates, this thread is actually barely two pages long.

Oof, well, that was tough.

So, we just need GIGA Queen's final attack evaluated and we're pretty much done with the chapter.

Anything y'all disagree with? If so, please tell me so we can discuss it, otherwise, everything here will be applied to the newer profiles.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

psychomaster? i agree

I'd appreciate a second opinion actually, but it's okay

 

[GodlyCharmander]

TO BE EVALUATED:

• GIGA Queen's final attack

Bump

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

anyway does jevil scale to chapter 2 top tiers?