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The power of a lightning bolt, multiplied by the size difference?Imaginym said:
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[SPOILER] Pokémon SW/SH Thread 3: Ruby and Sapphire... oh wait! [SPOILER]
- Thread starter LordWhis
- Start date
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I fully agree there.Zeifyl said:
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Okay, let's calculate this blasted lightning bolt. Just be warned, by calculations are disorganized & verbose; Hence why the contents below are collapsible.
So imprecise. Doing more research....
http://www.usfcam.usf.edu/cam/exhibitions/1998_12_McCollum/supplemental_didactics/25.Uman10.pdf
"The best channel diameter photographs (Ref. 10.5) yield diameters of between about 2 and 7 in., and these values are probably overestimates."
AGGGGGHHHHH. I guess the ambiguity is reasonable. It's hard to discern the lightning from the air around it; Hard to find a boundary, for one.
Okay, let's actually try & measure this intro Pikachu's Thunderbolt.
Annoyingly, I have no idea what the... "energy density" of lightning is. A quick search does find this, though:
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/78300/does-lightning-have-mass
"Lightning is not 'just light', it is according to this NOAA National Severe Storms Laboratory FAQ, Lightning, as best we understand, is a channel of electrical charge, called a stepped leader that zigzags downward So, technically speaking, the mass of a lightning bolt could be the sum of all the electrons and the plasma within the electrical charge channel. (thank you to tpg2114)
Each electron has a mass of about 9.11├ù10ÔêÆ319.11├ù10ÔêÆ31 kilograms, but it would not really be feasible to exactly count how many electrons there are in a single lightning bolt, hence, not feasible to get an exact mass."
I have no idea how relevant this is.
So let's be a little absurd & do it like things that have mass (Lightning does have mass, after all! ....Apparently.) & multiply the quantity of joules by the cube of the difference in size.
We'll do two sizes for how big a typical lightning bolt should be. One low end, & one high end.
1. Low End Lightning Bolt size: 2.4 millimeter diameter, 6 mile (9.656064 kilometers) length. (I say Low End, but the greater difference in size will mean this basis gives the higher yield to intro Pikachu's bolt.)
2. High End Lightning Bolt size: 7 inch (17.78 centimeters) diameter & 75 mile (120.7008 kilometers) length.
I'm also going to assume that lightning is 3D & pretend it's cylindrical.
For my thoughts on the images you see, please read the filename.
Google tells me Earth's diameter is 12,742 kilometers.
Therefore, the pink circle's diameter (Which is 1,053 px vertically.) should be 12,742 km.
12,742 kilometers spread across 1,053 pixels means 12.1006648 kilometers per pixel.
If you think I'm going to try to determine the volume or area of a shape that crazy (Trust me the lightning's shape is even less straight & often, broken apart in the other frames that give it a different shape.), then YOU'RE crazy. I am much too lazy. You want that measured precisely, you do it.
I'M pretending that this lightning bolt has a volume like a cylinder. This calc is just for fun, & even if it was done properly, it was from a dub's intro, so I'm not even sure it'd be applicable!
The volume of a cylinder is pi times the square of the radius times the height.
I'm assuming this bolt's diameter averages out to be however long 55 pixels is.
The height is 626 pixels.
Now then. 12.1006648 kilometers per pixel * 55 pixel diameter = 665.536564 kilometers. Divide by 2 for radius = 332.768282 kilometers
12.1006648 kilometers per pixel * 626 pixel height = 7,575.01616 kilometers height.
Square the radius, of 332.768282 (So multiply that by itself.) for 11,0734.729505231524 & multiply THAT by pi. Result: 347,883.41271088827558756850038448
Now multiply by the height & we get 2,635,222,473.0809280955303648855194
Wolfram's answer to this seems consistent with mine so that's good. Put briefly, that's a volume of over 2 point 6 billion cubic kilometers.
Now let's get the volume of our real world average lightning bolts the same way! Assume cylinders, get volume.
Our low end real world bolt size is 2.4 mm in diameter & about 9.656064 kilometers in height. 1 km = 1,000,000 millimeters, so 9.656064 km is 9,656,064 mm. Halve the diameter (2.4 mm) for radius (1.2 mm), square the result, for 1.44. which, multiplied by pi = 4.5238934211693022633862064719225 mm. Multiply by height (9,656,064 mm) to get volume:
43,683,004.403989737490602066410098 cubic millimeters. If you want that in cubic kilometers, literally divide by that one quintillion. (A one followed by 18 zeroes.)
So that's my volume estimate for the smaller "average" real world lightning bolt. The other, as said, is 7 inches (17.78 centimeters, so radius of 8.89 cm.) diameter & 75 miles (120.7008 kilometers or 12,070,080 cm) in height.
8.89 squared = 79.0321, which, times pi = 248.28666475777389820150347813168, which times the height of 12,070,080 cm = 2,996,839,906.5595115732040031013277 Almost 3 billion cubic centimers. (Divide by 1 quadrillion (A one followed by 15 zeroes.) for cubic kilometers.)
That's the bigger "average" real world lightning bolt's size estimate.
If you'll recall, intro Pikachu's lightning bolt is 2,635,222,473.0809280955303648855194 cubic kilometers. So now we divide intro Pikachu's bolt's size by the "average" real world bolt sizes for our ends....
So, as a reminder 1 cubic kilometer =
2,635,222,473.0809280955303648855194 km^3 divided by:
43,683,004.403989737490602066410098 cubic millimeters (Smaller "average" real world bolt) = 6.032603546930583946188200722595×10^19 (Intro Pikachu's bolt is 60 quintillion 326 quadrillion 35 trillion 469 billion 305 million 839 thousand 461 point 88200722595 times bigger.)
2,996,839,906.5595115732040031013277 cubic centimeters (Larger "average" real world bolt) = 8.793337499653979466582321907718×10^14 (Intro Pikachu's bolt is 879 trillion 333 billion 749 million 965 thousand 397 point 9466582321907718 times bigger.)
Unless I'm mistaken, an increase in volume with no change in density means the same increase in mass.
"An average normal lightning contains approximately 1.6 billion Joules. "
If we suppose the amount of joules is multiplied by the same amount as the multiplier to the volume....
Low End AP Yield (Using the bigger real world lightning bolt.): 1.6 billion * 879333749965397.9466582321907718 = 1.40693399994463671465317150523488×10^24 joules (1,406,933,999,944,636,714,653,171.50523488 joules) (High 6-B - Large Country Level, a tier which ranges from 4.184x10^23 to 3.17984x10^24 joules.)
Low End AP Yield (Using the bigger real world lightning bolt.): 1.6 billion * 60,326,035,469,305,839,461.88200722595 = 9.652165675088934313901121156152 × 10^28 joules (96,521,656,750,889,343,139,011,211,561.52 joules) (High 6-A - Multi-Continent Level, a tier which ranges from 1.855604x10^25 to 1.24x10^29 joules.)
So yeah, there you go. Depending on which documentation we use for the size of real lightning bolts (& assuming they have the volumes of cylinders.) AND assuming the yield of a lightning bolt in joules is multiplied by the multiplier of the volume (Like with volume & mass, AFAIK.) then the result ends up being somewhere between High 6-B & High 6-A.)
If you wanna see the math, feel free to open up the collapsed monstrosity up above this text that is my calculation.
But again, I'm unsure how applicable this dub intro animation feat is, let alone how applicable my math is.
- The average lightning bolt is 6 miles long, although Cape Canaveral Kennedy Space Center has indicated some as long as 75 miles.
- The thickness of a lightning bolt is about the size of a silver dollar. It only looks bigger because it is so bright.
So imprecise. Doing more research....
http://www.usfcam.usf.edu/cam/exhibitions/1998_12_McCollum/supplemental_didactics/25.Uman10.pdf
"The best channel diameter photographs (Ref. 10.5) yield diameters of between about 2 and 7 in., and these values are probably overestimates."
AGGGGGHHHHH. I guess the ambiguity is reasonable. It's hard to discern the lightning from the air around it; Hard to find a boundary, for one.
Okay, let's actually try & measure this intro Pikachu's Thunderbolt.
Annoyingly, I have no idea what the... "energy density" of lightning is. A quick search does find this, though:
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/78300/does-lightning-have-mass
"Lightning is not 'just light', it is according to this NOAA National Severe Storms Laboratory FAQ, Lightning, as best we understand, is a channel of electrical charge, called a stepped leader that zigzags downward So, technically speaking, the mass of a lightning bolt could be the sum of all the electrons and the plasma within the electrical charge channel. (thank you to tpg2114)
Each electron has a mass of about 9.11├ù10ÔêÆ319.11├ù10ÔêÆ31 kilograms, but it would not really be feasible to exactly count how many electrons there are in a single lightning bolt, hence, not feasible to get an exact mass."
I have no idea how relevant this is.
So let's be a little absurd & do it like things that have mass (Lightning does have mass, after all! ....Apparently.) & multiply the quantity of joules by the cube of the difference in size.
We'll do two sizes for how big a typical lightning bolt should be. One low end, & one high end.
1. Low End Lightning Bolt size: 2.4 millimeter diameter, 6 mile (9.656064 kilometers) length. (I say Low End, but the greater difference in size will mean this basis gives the higher yield to intro Pikachu's bolt.)
2. High End Lightning Bolt size: 7 inch (17.78 centimeters) diameter & 75 mile (120.7008 kilometers) length.
I'm also going to assume that lightning is 3D & pretend it's cylindrical.
For my thoughts on the images you see, please read the filename.
Google tells me Earth's diameter is 12,742 kilometers.
Therefore, the pink circle's diameter (Which is 1,053 px vertically.) should be 12,742 km.
12,742 kilometers spread across 1,053 pixels means 12.1006648 kilometers per pixel.
If you think I'm going to try to determine the volume or area of a shape that crazy (Trust me the lightning's shape is even less straight & often, broken apart in the other frames that give it a different shape.), then YOU'RE crazy. I am much too lazy. You want that measured precisely, you do it.
I'M pretending that this lightning bolt has a volume like a cylinder. This calc is just for fun, & even if it was done properly, it was from a dub's intro, so I'm not even sure it'd be applicable!
The volume of a cylinder is pi times the square of the radius times the height.
I'm assuming this bolt's diameter averages out to be however long 55 pixels is.
The height is 626 pixels.
Now then. 12.1006648 kilometers per pixel * 55 pixel diameter = 665.536564 kilometers. Divide by 2 for radius = 332.768282 kilometers
12.1006648 kilometers per pixel * 626 pixel height = 7,575.01616 kilometers height.
Square the radius, of 332.768282 (So multiply that by itself.) for 11,0734.729505231524 & multiply THAT by pi. Result: 347,883.41271088827558756850038448
Now multiply by the height & we get 2,635,222,473.0809280955303648855194
Wolfram's answer to this seems consistent with mine so that's good. Put briefly, that's a volume of over 2 point 6 billion cubic kilometers.
Now let's get the volume of our real world average lightning bolts the same way! Assume cylinders, get volume.
Our low end real world bolt size is 2.4 mm in diameter & about 9.656064 kilometers in height. 1 km = 1,000,000 millimeters, so 9.656064 km is 9,656,064 mm. Halve the diameter (2.4 mm) for radius (1.2 mm), square the result, for 1.44. which, multiplied by pi = 4.5238934211693022633862064719225 mm. Multiply by height (9,656,064 mm) to get volume:
43,683,004.403989737490602066410098 cubic millimeters. If you want that in cubic kilometers, literally divide by that one quintillion. (A one followed by 18 zeroes.)
So that's my volume estimate for the smaller "average" real world lightning bolt. The other, as said, is 7 inches (17.78 centimeters, so radius of 8.89 cm.) diameter & 75 miles (120.7008 kilometers or 12,070,080 cm) in height.
8.89 squared = 79.0321, which, times pi = 248.28666475777389820150347813168, which times the height of 12,070,080 cm = 2,996,839,906.5595115732040031013277 Almost 3 billion cubic centimers. (Divide by 1 quadrillion (A one followed by 15 zeroes.) for cubic kilometers.)
That's the bigger "average" real world lightning bolt's size estimate.
If you'll recall, intro Pikachu's lightning bolt is 2,635,222,473.0809280955303648855194 cubic kilometers. So now we divide intro Pikachu's bolt's size by the "average" real world bolt sizes for our ends....
So, as a reminder 1 cubic kilometer =
2,635,222,473.0809280955303648855194 km^3 divided by:
43,683,004.403989737490602066410098 cubic millimeters (Smaller "average" real world bolt) = 6.032603546930583946188200722595×10^19 (Intro Pikachu's bolt is 60 quintillion 326 quadrillion 35 trillion 469 billion 305 million 839 thousand 461 point 88200722595 times bigger.)
2,996,839,906.5595115732040031013277 cubic centimeters (Larger "average" real world bolt) = 8.793337499653979466582321907718×10^14 (Intro Pikachu's bolt is 879 trillion 333 billion 749 million 965 thousand 397 point 9466582321907718 times bigger.)
Unless I'm mistaken, an increase in volume with no change in density means the same increase in mass.
"An average normal lightning contains approximately 1.6 billion Joules. "
If we suppose the amount of joules is multiplied by the same amount as the multiplier to the volume....
Low End AP Yield (Using the bigger real world lightning bolt.): 1.6 billion * 879333749965397.9466582321907718 = 1.40693399994463671465317150523488×10^24 joules (1,406,933,999,944,636,714,653,171.50523488 joules) (High 6-B - Large Country Level, a tier which ranges from 4.184x10^23 to 3.17984x10^24 joules.)
Low End AP Yield (Using the bigger real world lightning bolt.): 1.6 billion * 60,326,035,469,305,839,461.88200722595 = 9.652165675088934313901121156152 × 10^28 joules (96,521,656,750,889,343,139,011,211,561.52 joules) (High 6-A - Multi-Continent Level, a tier which ranges from 1.855604x10^25 to 1.24x10^29 joules.)
So yeah, there you go. Depending on which documentation we use for the size of real lightning bolts (& assuming they have the volumes of cylinders.) AND assuming the yield of a lightning bolt in joules is multiplied by the multiplier of the volume (Like with volume & mass, AFAIK.) then the result ends up being somewhere between High 6-B & High 6-A.)
If you wanna see the math, feel free to open up the collapsed monstrosity up above this text that is my calculation.
But again, I'm unsure how applicable this dub intro animation feat is, let alone how applicable my math is.
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Oh. Hmmm....
It selects a lot more than just the bolt, it looks like.
I tried a few spots, but I'm not sure it's perfectly accurate. And again, the bolt is broken apart or weirdly shaped in other frames. Here's a screenshot of the bolt at the shape I tried to measure it at:
So that's there if anyone else wants to take a crack at it. Wouldn't be surprised if they did better.
It selects a lot more than just the bolt, it looks like.
I tried a few spots, but I'm not sure it's perfectly accurate. And again, the bolt is broken apart or weirdly shaped in other frames. Here's a screenshot of the bolt at the shape I tried to measure it at:
So that's there if anyone else wants to take a crack at it. Wouldn't be surprised if they did better.
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You can change the tolerance, and add pixel counts from different sections.
I barely know how to use Paint.net at all. If you'd like to instruct me, maybe you could do so on my Message Wall or such?
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Ah well okay. Now, what shapes do you propose we posit for those lightning bolts? Lightning SHOULD have electrons, so it can presumably be 3D & have mass, just on a low scale.
Do we treat them as 3D shapes so we can calculate volume? Or as a 2D shape & just calculate area? I'm especially inexperienced in measuring curved shapes like that, & splitting it up would be a lot of work.
Sorry for my laziness & incompetence.
Do we treat them as 3D shapes so we can calculate volume? Or as a 2D shape & just calculate area? I'm especially inexperienced in measuring curved shapes like that, & splitting it up would be a lot of work.
Sorry for my laziness & incompetence.
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Volume. Could the volume just be (area)^3?
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I'm not sure. I mean, we can't measure it as a 2D object. (A 2D object doesn't have volume, AFAIK.)
I also don't know what shape or formula to use to find its area because I don't know the name of the shape the lightning bolt is in. MAYBE a crescent? I'm not sure if it's a polygon, either.
I also don't know what shape or formula to use to find its area because I don't know the name of the shape the lightning bolt is in. MAYBE a crescent? I'm not sure if it's a polygon, either.
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Off topic, but Ho-Oh's Rainbow Wing feat should be going back to using KE instead of following our CAPE standards from how I see it. Talked to Dragonpentling about this already and he agrees.
Unlike typical storm creation feats, this feat literally involves pulling clouds towards the rainbow wing when making it's storm. That implies KE is involved more than it just being typical storm creation (otherwise, the clouds would have orginated from the feather's beam rather than move towards it).
Unlike typical storm creation feats, this feat literally involves pulling clouds towards the rainbow wing when making it's storm. That implies KE is involved more than it just being typical storm creation (otherwise, the clouds would have orginated from the feather's beam rather than move towards it).
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@Kukui Which feat is being talked about here?
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I doubt it's a move, based on the mention of the Rainbow Wing, an item. https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Rainbow_WingIonliosite said:
(Funnily enough, it's not a whole wing, but rather, just a feather. I'd guess this is because the English translation for the Generation 2 games that introduced it on the Game Boy Colour had to fit the name into a character limit or such, so "Rainbow Feather" had to be changed to "Rainbow Wing".)
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The Rainbow Wing feat from "I Choose You". One of Ho-Oh's feathers creates a storm over a mountain region that was calced to High 6-B by Executor that upgraded Ho-Oh, Lugia and other legendaries. But when CAPE became a standard for storm feats here, the feat could no longer use KE for no evidence of it being applied, resulting in downgrades.Ionliosite said:
Unitl now where im pointing out KE should be involved for x reasons I gave.
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Oh sorry, forgot to respond to this.Drite77 said:
You can take a look at Executor's calc, which ended up being High 6-B.
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Even if they were to accept the feat as calculable from Kinetic Energy, there would be many problems.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
One of the reasons for why the feat is impressive is the radius of the storm. By our old rules, there wasn't a limit for the Distance to the Horizon, the one that I used in the calc was of nearly 160km of radius. Now the limit of of only 20 km unless there's a reason for the use of a higher, or lower, value. With we don't have. Also, we changed our KE formulas for different ones depending on the feat, in this case when all the mass is converging to a single point, then the result would be 6 times lower than the result for the old formula.
By this rules the radius would be of only 20 km, the speed would then be of only 8333.3 m/s, the mass would be of 1.00832558e13 kg. Then the KE would be (1/12) * 1.00832558e13 * (8333.3)^2 = 5.8351708e19 J, this is above baseline Island.
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Wait, when and why did our DttH be limited to only 20 km?
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Human vision. The calculation for the distance to the horizon was really wrong in the past and the results could be much bigger, but then to make it even more certain it was argued that human vision limits the observation of the horizon of vision. And certainly, normally human vision has a limit of 20 km for the horizon of vision in open environments.
Therefore, unless it is specified in the work in any way, we use the value of 20 km as a limit for calculations like this.
I don't exactly agree with that, but it has been accepted by most people in the past.
Therefore, unless it is specified in the work in any way, we use the value of 20 km as a limit for calculations like this.
I don't exactly agree with that, but it has been accepted by most people in the past.
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the shot of the calculation is not from a human's perspective tho
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I agree, but I don't know if there is an exception to that
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That should be looked into then, but assuming it is an exception, what would be the results with the old DttH used in the calc?
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Mass = (pi * 159700┬▓ * 8000) * 1.003 = 6.42910657e14 kg
Speed = 46970.5882 m/s
KE = (1/12) * 6.42910657e14 * 46970.5882┬▓ = 1.18201061e23, 6-B (Country Level)
Speed = 46970.5882 m/s
KE = (1/12) * 6.42910657e14 * 46970.5882┬▓ = 1.18201061e23, 6-B (Country Level)
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That's good, given I'm sure Lugia's feat isn't 6-B anymore, so that could save them from the downgrade.
Eden_Warlock99
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Wait! Why isn't it 6-B anymore?Ionliosite said:
Eden_Warlock99
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So it's getting recalced?
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It's not and people keep spreading that misinformation. Not a single calc member or major Pokémon supporter said jack on Lugia's feat being either wrong or outdated.
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I mean maybe they don't know?
For example the Bleach storm calcs we're using outdated formulas for like a year and no one revised them till a week ago or so.
For example the Bleach storm calcs we're using outdated formulas for like a year and no one revised them till a week ago or so.
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I don't think it's really noteworthy for Pikachu here, but his feat in the latest episode was pretty cool. He reacted to a lightning bolt and intercepted it, matching its power completely.
Although...I wonder how fast Pikachu would have to be? He's already Relativistc+ on his page but this feat might be much better than his current scaling, considering how close the lightning bolt was when he reacted and intercepted it.
Although...I wonder how fast Pikachu would have to be? He's already Relativistc+ on his page but this feat might be much better than his current scaling, considering how close the lightning bolt was when he reacted and intercepted it.
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kek
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School reunions in a nutshell.
