Soul Crush Doesn't Exist

[Dragopentling]

Why are we trying to equate the laws and physics of superpowers from different verses together? Lets not, plz. They don't necessarily function the exact same way. We should honestly have been aware of this earlier. It's like saying Nen from HxH and Quirks from BHA are of the same nature....that's ludicrous.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dragopentling; they're not the same, but because of Verse Equalization we can treat some elements of them to be the same or comparable.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wait, I saw someone above saying reiryoku gives soul hax resistance just because Yammys Gonzui can be "resisted" by having more reiryoku

Thing is, if thats the case, why is this standard being applied to all other applications of soul haxes in Bleach?

^

 

[Dragopentling]

I know. It's just that people often still mess this up.

 

[AppleLord]

There are two different types of souls in Bleach.

• Pluses which are the normal souls of human beings that don't age and are intangible. This souls do not require food, sleep or age because they do not have spiritual energy.

• Shinigami, Quincy (dead), Fullbringer (dead) and Hollows are the opposite of pluses.

Aizen (Transcendent Shinigami) was able to kill a Plus in SS with his Reiatsu by walking near him when SS transported Karakura Town to SS and converted every human into souls.

The guy didn't had Reiatsu or spiritual energy and was still affected by Aizen's Reiatsu.

 

[Naeblis495]

@kukui :because the same logic have been witnessed with the other haxes ? RC is the same , soul destruction from quincies is the same.

The only hax i'm not sure about is the soul bfr/purification from zanpakuto. but it's been a while since i've read early bleach.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Naeblis495

From what Anonymous said above, Gonzui has a statement of failing against targets with more reiryoku to their name (don't remember this but i'lll take his word for it on this one). The problem though is that its only established for Gonzui going off of that.

Why are we assuming that Bleachs other soul haxes, which have different applications of soul manipulation than Yammy's Gonzui, fall under "more reiryoku, more resistance" ?

 

[Naeblis495]

Because reiryoku is what make your soul stronger and more resistant to other soul attacks.

tatsuki survived both soul hax : soul suck and soul crush, proving that they fall under the same category.

Others , normal humans , have died instantly from those effects before.

The only thing that separate tatsuki from a normal human is her slightly bigger ammount of reiryoku , making her soul , stronger and more resistant.

 

[AstralKing7]

There are two different types of souls in Bleach.

Bruhh I'm so confused because if this is true some things will have to change because there might be some contradictions

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>tatsuki survived both soul hax : soul suck and soul crush, proving that they fall under the same category.

I dont agree with her surviving the latter, but thats not important right now.

The latter is more circumstantial and speculation though. Gonzui (soul suck) we know for a fact fails against those with more reiryoku because it's actually confirmed to have that weakness to it (at least from what Anonymous said earlier). Reiryoku specifically is noted to be able to defend against Gonzui. But as for other soul haxes in bleach? The assumption here is that if they ever fail or dont work, it automatically has to mea reiryoku defends against them as well?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Chad and Orihime were also unaffected by it unlike Tatsuki who simply endured it.

 

[Naeblis495]

she is still alive even after having her soul being crushed for multiple seconds. You not agreeing with it change nothing , she is still alive , so she survived it that's a fact . Just like grimmjow survived the reiatsu from aizen even after multiple seconds of exposure.

orihime and chad also where exposed to both haxes , and they both were completetly unaffected. The only difference between them and tatsuki are their much higher reiryoku , making their souls much stronger than tatsuki's .

You just need a tough enough soul to resist soul hax in bleach regardless of your AP,reiryoku does that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But, again, the question is if another form of soul hax other than Gonzui fails against someone in Bleach, it automatically has to mean reiryoku is the cause of it failing?

 

[Naeblis495]

i'm not goinf to repeat myself again , i already explained it twice in my last posts .

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

But, again, the question is if another form of soul hax other than Gonzui fails against someone in Bleach, it automatically has to mean reiryoku is the cause of it failing?

Not sure what else it could be, never seen "other" forms of soul manipulation except Shinigami BFR. But that has never been used outside of Konao rituals against fodder spirits.

 

[Naeblis495]

zanpakuto also purify and bfr the souls they "kill"

 

[AKM sama]

"The point is, Soul energy cannot be scaled to AP since this isn't pure AP, it's the enrgy of the souls, something that can't be equaled to AP due to the fact that it don't determind how strong you are, but rather how strong your soul is"

Except the amount of reiryoku or spiritual energy one has, is directly linked and proportional to their AP even if that's not the only relation that exists. Humans have minimal amount of reiryoku hence they are weak. As the amount of reiryoku increases so does their AP Lieutenant, Captain, etc.

 

[AppleLord]

"The point is, Soul energy cannot be scaled to AP since this isn't pure AP, it's the enrgy of the souls, something that can't be equaled to AP due to the fact that it don't determind how strong you are, but rather how strong your soul is"

Except the amount of reiryoku or spiritual energy one has, is directly linked and proportional to their AP even if that's not the only relation that exists. Humans have minimal amount of reiryoku hence they are weak. As the amount of reiryoku increases so does their AP Lieutenant, Captain, etc.

Isn't this the purpose of Ichigo's power? To channel all of his spiritual energy into his blade and fire it? This move is called Getsuga Tensho which proves that spiritual energy and AP are connected.

 

[AppleLord]

Bruhh I'm so confused because if this is true some things will have to change because there might be some contradictions

Like what? The characters still have the ability to interact with intangible souls the only difference is that they age and need to sleep and eat to replenish their spiritual energy which is why they have organs and a energy system.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Don't think I've ever denied reiryoku = AP and stats. I specifically said Reiatsu isn't. More reiryoku also increases your spiritual capabilities.

So what does Reiatsu have to do with it?

 

[Naeblis495]

Reiryoku = AP , stats ,hax and resistance . it boost pretty much everything .

Just because your physical body can tank their attacks , doesn't mean your soul can resist their haxes.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

This may seem irrelevant, bit the answer given to this question may influence what I say moving forward with this thread?

Can Bleach characters use Bankai, Kidos and other abilities in physical bodies?

I'm asking because I don't remember.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

This may seem irrelevant, bit the answer given to this question may influence what I say moving forward with this thread?
Can Bleach characters use Bankai, Kidos and other abilities in physical bodies?

I'm asking because I don't remember.

I think the only one that did that in the whole show was rukia vs grand fisher but i might be forgeting some others but basically yea seems like they can.

 

[Red-Eyed_Specter]

Hi,I've been lurking here since this thread was created.


I've had enough time to evaluate both arguments for what they are and I'll have to agree with keeping Soul Crush the way it is. I saw a few arguments being made here that don't quite fit the bill. I totally understand caveats and all that jazz, but comparing this to DBZ is completely different. In Dragon Ball it's directly stated that Shenron cannot effect stronger beings, and if I recall this was stated a few times. In this case it's no such there, no such statement's exist and there isn't any implications that one would exist. Having more attack potency or higher durability only counteres one thing, that being the physical disintegration. Soul Destruction would still take place regardless of the durability, unless the character has resistance to soul manipulation.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

This may seem irrelevant, bit the answer given to this question may influence what I say moving forward with this thread?
Can Bleach characters use Bankai, Kidos and other abilities in physical bodies?

I'm asking because I don't remember.

I don't entirely remember, but I would have to say yes personally. The Vizored are in their artificial bodies so they can live in the human world during the battle against Aizen. Not only do they use their abilities, they even activate shikai and use their masks. Ichigo, in the same way and if memory isn't failing me, is entirely in his physical human body in the Fullbring Arc when his powers are restored and he even goes Bankai. I'll likely go see that later to make sure.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I'm mainly watching this thread go down just to see other's thoughts and their interpretations.

But I'd like to remind people of my own past thread that is already accepted about Reiatsu/Reiryoku =/= AP/Durability.

In this thread I provide examples of how the level of your Reiryoku or Reiatsu doesn't determine that your stats are equal or even similar.

Just having Reiryoku doesn't determine your stats too. Reminder, Ichigo had more Reiryoku than everyone in the Arrancar Arc (this is proven by the fact that Ichigo could sense Aizen's Reiatsu when no one else could), but Ichigo was physically weaker than the likes of Gin, Unohana, and Yammy in this arc.

 

[AKM sama]

Nobody contested that AP is not always equal to durability, most of the instances on that thread are special attacks, abilities and forms that generally boost selective aspects whether it is AP, dura or speed, and that's not only limited to Bleach, literally almost every other verse abides by these rules. It's that common. And there are many small instances where character's AP is not portrayed as being exactly equal to their dura despite them being almost on the same level.

These instances don't change the norm of the verse where weak humans have minimal amount of reiryoku and as you go up the food chain to Gotei 13, Lieutenant, Captain and above, the amount of reiryoku is progressively higher and directly proportional to their overall strength.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I don't see how it is common. At least in my case I haven't seen it that much.

That also doesn't change the norm of the verse where, unlike as has been pointed out by Sigurd, there's not a single mention of strength diminishing the effects of a stronger soul being near a weaker soul. Even if we decide to go with more Reiyoku makes you bear it easier, it having a caveat of not working on weaker people needs supporting proof.

Stronger people are rarely affected is not proof. The much safer and default assumption is, indeed, that they resist.

This is the one thing I keep not seeing from you and that is very ingrained in the site at all, so I am confused why nothing can be provided. Stronger people not being affected is not an argument unless there's already existing, parallel proof that this is because of a caveat, and not because resistance, said resistance being clearly shown when Tatsuki resists Gonzui. Not only soul crush, Gonzui. Not only is there the fact she resist both at all, is the direct implication that she resists due to more Reiyoku.

I have no honest to God clue what threads you've been in AKM, but that is proof of resistance everywhere else I've been. "How peculiar that it doesn't work on stronger people" is not proof. "This dude has a bigger soul than this one but still the lower one isn't being affected" is not proof. These are assumptions without due grounding and basing, potential evidence at best too if there was anything more substantial than this, but that hasn't been provided. And that's all I've wanted.

 

[AKM sama]

Again, I feel like a broken record, but please tell me which other verse gives out resistances to all it's cast based on a clear stated reason that soul suck doesn't work because the soul is stronger. That's the limitation of his soul suck. If any other character from any other verse has a stronger soul, for god knows whatever reason, Gonzui would still fail because it does not work on stronger souls. The other character doesn't need to have a special resistance to soul suck when the ability itself doesn't work.

Second, even if what you are suggesting were somehow true, the resistance would be limited to soul suck as that's what was explicitly stated to have been resisted in such manner. It has no relation to any other form of hax that was not stated to be resisted in such a manner. And scaling a resistance to one hax to all the other different types of hax is, quite honestly, absurd. Please tell me what other verses handle things like that.

"Stronger people are rarely affected is not proof. The much safer and default assumption is, indeed, that they resist. "

When in the entire verse there is no instance of a stronger person (or technically, one with higher reiryoku) getting affected by an ability from a weaker person, then the more logical and safer conclusion is that the ability has a caveat dependent on the AP, not highballing the whole verse and giving out every other character an unfounded resistance.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

" And scaling a resistance to one hax to all the other different types of hax is, quite honestly, absurd. Please tell me what other verses handle things like that."

We don't do this though, it's just soul hax lol. I don't know any other verses with mechanics like Bleach so I wouldn't know.

When in the entire verse there is no instance of a stronger person (or technically, one with higher reiryoku) getting affected by an ability from a weaker person.

That's not hard proof, as noted on the page to place a caveat on an ability.

"It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, stated by at least a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization."

then the more logical and safer conclusion is that the ability has a caveat dependent on the AP

Except it isn't as explained to you multiple times. via your logic anyone who can stand next to someone RC scales for some reason as opposed to just having resistance to soul manipulation. This argument isn't logical, it's honestly extreme wank.

not highballing the whole verse and giving out every other character an unfounded resistance.

Like I honestly don't think you're reading our posts. You think resistace to soul manipulation for entire cast is unfounded highballing? As I said to you earlier mostly everything within the verse revolves around soul hax, even casting a fire spell is a form of soul hax. Why in the world wouldn't it scale throughout the verse when everyone fights each other and resists each other?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Nen has resistance to death manip since receiving nen naked, no matter power, is simply something the human body can't deal with. Rimuru and similar have resistances to power funky shenanigans due to interference needing to be stronger than the defenses of the soul, which rely on a strong soul. Every case where a strong mind wards off mental manip, like the very same Rimuru. "Strong so it doesn't get affected". Xue Ying due to having a soul many times stronger. The many profiles putting "X's soul was strong enough to not be affected by this". Other Tensei Shitara characters getting soul resistance due to having a strong soul able to bear getting transported between dimensions.

You are interpreting "strong" as in "the ability cannot affect stronger things". I, and seems to be that others too, interpret it as "Strong enough to resist the effect".

This issue is an assumption on your part, and this goes beyond souls. This is the assumption that something being stronger is just a weakness of the ability to deal with if it isn't affected, rather than the thing in question being strong enough to shrug the ability. Poisons aren't weak or have a caveat because a strong immune sistem deals with them, neither is an attack flawed in some way because it can't hurt a character, his durability is just stronger (which sounds wrong to say, higher is the obvious better choice, but point remains the same).

And that is vehemently not true. It has been proven already that Quincy destroy the soul, Shinigami attack the soul, Soul Crush crushes the soul obviously, so we end in square one. Are we also gonna assume they resist those because they are stronger instead of having resistances? Apparently so.

And no, that is indeed not the safer assumption. This assumption relies on other assumptions, that the ability to resist is equal to the ability to soul crush in potency, that something resisting because it is strong ends in a caveat for the ability rather than resistance for said strength. By occam's razors, I can tell you just likewise, there's no reason to be so incoherently uptight and lowball feats because you want to go with the safer assumption, the safer assumption that has much less evidence and requires more assumptions.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

TL;DR: Something resisting because it is strong is not convincing proof of any sort that it is a caveat of the ability, instead of a resistance of the thing for it's strength, without sufficient proof otherwise or a direct statement.

And this is simple common sense. Things aren't supposed to magically resist, something resisting because it is strong is simply logical.

As for the thing Agnaa mentioned, the resistance derives from Tatsuki having a bit more Reiyoku than normal humans, and everyone that matters in the series has way more than her.

 

[Naeblis495]

This may seem irrelevant, bit the answer given to this question may influence what I say moving forward with this thread?
Can Bleach characters use Bankai, Kidos and other abilities in physical bodies?

I'm asking because I don't remember.

Bankai and shikai is a big no , in a normal physical body anyway. Urahara can create artificial bodies for soul reaper that allow them to do so like he did for the vizards. But even normal artificial bodies not created by urahara can't allow such feat showing that it is incompatible in normal circumstances. They can still sense other souls and defend against their aura even in normal bodies because it only target the soul.

Kido have been showned to be able to be used only in artificial physical bodies created by urahara too. Never in normal physical bodies or non-urahara made artificial bodies.

Shunpo, the flash step move, was never showned to be able to be used in normal physical bodies or normal artificial ones , only with urahara artificial bodies.

Basically , everything that require the power of your own soul was never showned to be able to be used in a human body or basic Soul Society artificial human body, beside for the innate defense of your soul , that ,stay always on. Shinigamis always have to use an object to extract their souls from their current physical bodies to fight , if they were in one at the time anyway.Only Urahara was able to bypass this rule with his own custom made artificial bodies.

Fullbringer and quincies on the other hand , use the power of the souls around them to fight(ambiant soul particules for quincies , the souls of objects for fullbringers) , and are not concerned with that rule , showing quite capable of fighting to full capability even in normal human/physical bodies or just as souls like the shinigamis.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't think your understanding AKMs actual point here. What AKM is saying is that, as it currently stands, Reiryoku is being given the luxury of giving resistance to any and all applications of soul manipulation shown in Bleach just because only one application of soul manipulation was explicitly stated to be resisted by Reiryoku, which is soul sucking like from Yammys Gonzui.

So yes, you are currently doing this and that's why I asked what I did above. You guys are going under the assumption that if any other form of soul manipulation ever fails in Bleach, ones that aren't soul sucking, Reiryoku automatically has to be the reason behind them failing and has to grant characters resistance to them. Something that we don't do for any other verse without explicit evidence.

Gonzui failing against Reiryoku means Reiryoku resists soul absorption? Sure. It was confirmed, so that's fine. It's even acceptable to say any form of soul sucking in Bleach gets resisted by Reiryoku since it's the same applicatio. So whatever hax in Bleach that can absorbs souls falls under Reiryoku resisting it. But what about soul hax that isn't soul sucking? Like Soul Destruction, or just regular typical Soul Manipulation? Why assume if those different soul haxes fails, reiryoku is the reason behind it? What basis is there to that? Just because they're Soul hax? That is the problem.

To put this in other verse terms, let's use Dragon Ball again. What you guys are doing for Reiryoku is like saying when someone in Dragon Ball uses KI to resist time stopping, because of KI having that distinct inate ability to resist time being stopped, then every person and their mother with KI has resistance to time-manipulation as a whole. Not just time-stopping. That means other applications of time hax, like time slowing, time acceleration, aging, time loops, etc. wouldn't work against people with KI. All because KI has only ever been confirmed to resist just time stopping.

See how ridiculous that is? To sum up AKMs point on this matter: Resistances to other applications of a hax can't just be given out due to one form of it being resisted. You only give the resistance that's proven to be resisted. So in the context of Bleach, Reiryoku shouldn't be given resistances beyond what it was confirmed to resist, which is soul sucking. Not soul destruction or any other form of soul hax.

Like I honestly don't think you're reading our posts. You think resistace to soul manipulation for entire cast is unfounded highballing? As I said to you earlier mostly everything within the verse revolves around soul hax, even casting a fire spell is a form of soul hax. Why in the world wouldn't it scale throughout the verse when everyone fights each other and resists each other?

See above for here too. Resistance to soul manipulation in general is fine for the verse to have. It's being given resistances to all applications of soul manipulation via just resisting one of them that is the issue.

 

[Naeblis495]

here we have rukia being crushed by byakuya's passive reiatsu and state quite clearly that it's because she have lost too much spirit energy(reiryoku is spirit energy)

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0116-037.png

So reiryoku permit you to resist reiatsu and Gonzui.

There other soul hax in bleach doesn't work differently from one another. Reiryoku , and thus a thougher soul is what matter to resist them . It provide resistance to all soul hax showned in bleach. You could argue that they can't resist other form of soul hax not present in bleach ( if there is any) but that's it .

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Did you like completely miss the part where every race has some main form of soul manipulation?

Quincy can cause soul destruction with their casual arrows. I've yet to see anyone worth anything get annihilated by one of their arrows.

Quincy can also forcefully enslave all the spiritual matter around them. You see Orihime and Chad resist this when Quilge used Skalveri but Ayon was completely deleted.

Fullbringers can command ambient souls around them to do things amongst other things.

Shinigami can purify and BFR souls to the hell or soul society and use their own latent spiritual power to do things.

You're essentially trying to force some sort of distinction between these forms of soul manipulation in how they're resisted in combat when none of that is implied or stated throughout the entire series. Anyways Lancelot above me posted several examples of other verses so yeah it's a thing under the right circumstances in fiction.

 

[Red-Eyed_Specter]

I'm waiting for someone to say all of that is AP based lol.

 

[Naeblis495]

I'm waiting for someone to say all of that is AP based lol.

Trust me , someone will .

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

here we have rukia being crushed by byakuya's passive reiatsu and state quite clearly that it's because she have lost too much spirit energy(reiryoku is spirit energy)
https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0116-037.png

This is twisting things up. Rukia wasn't being reiatsu crushed here. Rukia wasn't able to move because the prison she was in specifically drained her of her spirit energy to the point where she couldn't move her body properly. She outright says this. Byakuya didn't do anything to her.

Not to mention, had this been the case, Hanataro himself would've been crushed by Byakuya's reiatsu too. You know, the same Hinataro who just before getting Rukia got completely knocked out just by being in the presence of Kenpachi's spiritual pressure ? Why would he able to handle Byakuya's reiatsu but not Kenpachis in the short amount of time between leaving Ichigo to fight Kenny and getting to Rukia?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You're essentially trying to force some sort of distinction between these forms of soul manipulation in how they're resisted in combat when none of that is implied or stated throughout the entire series. Anyways Lancelot above me posted several examples of other verses so yeah it's a thing under the right circumstances in fiction.

Just like it's never once implied reiryoku gives resistance to those other applications of soul manipulation, outside of soul sucking, the latter being the only application of soul hax confirmed it grants resistance to. This isn't "forcing a distinction". It's going off of whats explicitly proven and confirmed rather than speculation.

And Lance posting examples doesnt matter since if thats the case, those verses need to get downgraded too if they're the same as this. 2 wrongs dont make a right.