• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Bleach: AP = Durability = Reiatsu

Status
Not open for further replies.
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017

IMadeThisOn8-1-2017

4,309
2,911
Except it does not, at least not always. Apparently this is a belief held across the wiki by some and it's conflicting with revisions since neither AP nor Durability of any character can be higher nor lower than the other. As I am not that old of a user, I never encountered this until recently when it did affect potential and current revisions, so now I seek to explain why it's not a band-aid rule across the whole verse. Note: AP = Durability due to Reiatsu is applicable to all the Quincy because they have an explicit ability that affects both their AP and Durability through the same manner. Some Shinigami and Arrancar do have AP = Durability per their feats and abilities.

Where Does It Come From
It seems this belief of AP being equal to Durability due to Reiatsu comes from Kenpachi and Aizen having Reiatsu high enough to null the attacks of others. Kenpachi's passively leaked Reiatsu was greater than Shikai Ichigo's unhoned Reiatsu, thus Kenpachi no-sells Shikai Ichigo's strikes. Aizen's Reiatsu was superior to Sui-Feng's Reiatsu, thus he suppresses and no-sells her attack via having greater Reiatsu.

I'm not sure why this belief is held when nothing says such a thing and because there are several feats throughout the series that deny such an idea.

Scans/Feats/Characters That Disprove This Idea

Byakuya:
Byakuya's Bankai Senbonzakura Kageysohi ability Senkei. Senbonzakura's true form when it has abandoned defense for the sake of pure offense to kill the enemy. A thousand blades are formed by the petals of Senbonzakura and the blades have their strength explosively increased through the petals hardening into the shape of a sword. The increases is double of it's previous state. Casting aside Defense for Offense increase. There is also Byakuya's final ability, Shükei: Hakuteiken, which concentrates his petals into one singular blade for an ultimate amped attack. Offense increase and durability is not increased.

Ikkaku:
Ikkaku's Bankai explicitly is not a Kido increase, not a speed increase, not a defense increase but solely a strength increase. In fact, his Bankai can raise it's Reiatsu to further amp it's strength to it's maximum destructive capabilities. Reiatsu increased with strength increase and durability is not affected.

Espadas:
All Espada can utilize the Gran Rey Cero in their base form and all can use Cero Oscuras in their Resurreccion.

The Gran Rey Cero's AP is higher than any durability feat of a good portion of the Espada.

Cero Oscuras as well is higher than any durability feat of a good portion of the Espada. Cero Oscuras is even labeled as an order of magnitude above the likes of a regular Cero, an increase in AP with no increase anywhere else.

Note: This wouldn't affect Grimmjow, Nnoitra, Ulquiorra, Tier, Barragan, Starrk and Yammy who have actual feats that demonstrate their AP is similar to their Durability.

Suì-Fēng:
Her Bankai is literally just an AP increase. Nothing else about her is affected. Her profile even has her AP with Bankai as Mountain+ while her durability with Bankai is Mountai.

Yamamoto:
Yamamoto's durability is superior to his AP for Shikai and Base. Ennetsu Jigoku is quite a destructive ability of Shikai Yamamoto's; however, it takes time to set it up to reach higher capabilities with multiple pillars. A singular Ennetsu Jigoku is unable to harm Shikai Yamamoto. A charged multi-pillar Ennetsu Jigoku with the force to disintegrate an area many times Karakura Town's size severely damaged base Yamamoto, yet he was still able to fight after that hit. Base and Shikai Yamamoto are more durable than he is casually offensive. Even with a charged Shikai attack from him, he can still take his best hits at base. Honestly, that fact that there exist attacks that can be charged for higher AP already dispels this notion.

Gin Ichimaru:
I already made a CRT about this for Gin and it was accepted even. To paraphrase, Gin's Bankai ability, Buto Renjin, amplifies his AP by an order of magnitude and doubles his Bankai's speed, nothing else is affected about him. His durability and own speed are left untouched.

Dangai Ichigo:
Dangai Ichigo was hurt by 1 Fragor from "Monster" Aize, yet Dangai Ichigo could casually destroy Ultra-Fragor, an trapping ability made with the power of 6 Fragor.

You can reflect this back to Butterfly Aizen and Monster Aizen as well since Monster Aizen could barely hurt Dangai Ichigo with his best while Butterfly Aizen couldn't hurt Dangai Ichigo. Yet even Butterfly Aizen could take hits from Dangai Ichigo.

Bankai Multipliers and Shikai Power Ups:
As multipliers have been accepted, obviously the subject of Bankai multipliers become active. However, so does the realization that AP = Durability due to Reiatsu makes literally 0 sense in relation to Bankai Multipliers. Reiatsu increases with Shikai and Bankai; however, not all stats increase with Shikai and Bankai for all users. If we had assumed that AP = Durability due to Reiatsu then literally ever Bankai users would have an equal increase to their AP and Durability even if their Bankai doesn't affect their stats like Mayuri Kurotsuchi and Rojuro Otorobashi.

Conclusion
AP does not equal Durability due to Reiatsu. Yes, some Hollows, Shinigami, Fullbringers and all Quincy do have AP = Durability; however, that is due to their feats displaying so and because of Blut for the Quincy. Not all characters should be assumed to have AP = Durability, instead look at their feats and accurately determine where they fall. This blanket rule is fallacious and holding back accurate revisions when it's easily disproven.
 
this is one of the reasons I disagreed with 5-B Bleach

I do not remember the exact circumstances but I do believe it involved the Soul King and Yhwach

and how it completely contradicts the AP/Durability thing and that's either the one or the other.

while im kinda neutral on the decision...I am leaning towards this conclusion
 
Technically dura=ap because this
FB IMG 15373970639570417


Bleach characters releases their spirit energy to destroy something or attack,you can't just say they can't tanked their own released energy.
 
The majority of exaples in the OP are Databook based. I've seeen this countless times over the years on other forums. Its well established that the databooks, anime, novels, and other materials meant to support the canon are not always accurate. Manga>Everything. If the anime/databook gives us new information on an unknown subject, it is acceptable. If information from one these secondary sources contradicts Kubo's main medium you obviously take the original over the supplemantary.

That said, I'll adress the ones that aren't Databook based.

Ichigo VS Aizen: Wounding a character is not the same as being equal to them. Two characters can occupy the same tier and still be worlds apart. If we didn't accept this every verse on here woud suffer immeasurably and to single out Bleach with special treatment would earn their ire.

Yamamoto: Yama-jii used AP & Durability against the Wonder-Bomb. His arms were stretched out to fight the blast. The alternative doesn't make sense since by his own words he would have been taken out by the blast when he was sharing it with Aizen.

I actually agree that some of the bankais are probably more attk related then defense related, but it requires a case by case review that likely won't come.

Quincy are the least likley to get AP=Durability thanks to blut. If either system is on then one is automatically greater then the other at any given point. Also, this system is based off reshi, not reiatsu. The translations that say otherwise are factually inaccurate from the Japanese.
 
>Majority are Databook based.

>Only 2 are Databook based.

You ignored Byakuya who says in manga that it increases and discards defense.

As for Ichigo and Aizen, you're ignoring the fact that Ichigo was severely wounded by 1 Fragor and casually destroyed something with the power of 6 Fragor. Aizen's best attack was a Fragor, yet he could take hits from Dangai Ichigo.

Your section on Yamamoto doesn't make much sense, you're saying Yama punched out the blast and used his body? That's quite baseless especially when Aizen clarifies that Yama used his body to minimize the blast.

As you yourself agree that Bankai are specialized in certain aspect, despite Bankai being Reiatsu increase, it already disproves the notion that AP = Durability.

Blut is based on Reiatsu and Reishi, we have translations stating both. If you can find the Raws and show they say otherwise, then be my guest. However, Blut affects both AP and Durability, but one at a time. Each would be equal to the other since they function the same way.
 
Burning Full Fingers said:
It's comprehensive and makes sense, so I agree. What you're saying is that it should be on a case-by-case basis?
Click to expand...
Honestly, everything should be a case-by-case basis for the utmost accuracy. But yes, this is what I am advocating.
 
I didn't ignore it. As you pointed out so I know you did read it, I said there is some support for bankais. What do you thik SBZK is if not a bankai?

Again I'm not ignoring what happened, but you are ignoring what I wrote about the difference within a tier.

And again, you're deliberately ignoring what I posted about Yama-ji's words.

"But one at a time"

Thanks for clarifiying you undersatnd even if you won't admit that Blut does not support your hypothesis.
 
Which already disproves AP = Durability.

You are trying to avoid the fact that both these characters have a distinct difference between their AP and Durability, it is not equal as their feats have shown. Yes the feats are still in the same tier, but they are on opposite ends which is not equal.

Yama's words are incorrect obviously, he said he would die in the blast, yet when he takes on the blast he survives.

Blut is not being used to support my CRT. I'm referencing Blut to show that sometimes some characters do have AP = Durability. I mention this twice even in my post, at the top and bottom.
 
This whole AP is Dura thing was ret@rded af to begin with, it literally ignores every single fodder ever hurting a superior character
 
I agree with this, we should always do case-by-case basis for everyone else unless it was stated otherwise. Although for Quincy they should have equal durability and attack potency base on how their blut works.
 
Does this Blut thing scale to Ichigo? because I'm pretty sure, he has no feats of using it, except for that one time yhwach slumped him in chapter 513
 
Ichigo has the advantage of being the MC and fighting people of his level generally giving him AP = Durability. Dangai Ichigo however has a clear distinct difference where his AP was higher than his Dura, this would have scaled to True Shikai Ichigo except that guy fights Yhwach and takes repeated hits from him.
 
Current profiles which mention the AP = Durability thing (as far as I know) are Ikkaku, Haschwalth, Soi-Fon, Yoruichi and Hitsugaya. Probably more.
 
Damage3245 said:
Current profiles which mention the AP = Durability thing (as far as I know) are Ikkaku, Haschwalth, Soi-Fon, Yoruichi and Hitsugaya. Probably more.
Click to expand...
Ikkaku's does indeed have this issue.

Haschwalth says Multi-Continent level (Tanked Yamamoto's Bankai flames which are made from his own Reiatsu, was able to damage Uryü [Reiatsu is used for offensive and defensive purposes]) for AP. Haschwalth being a Quincy is fine with this rating when stating Blut's mechanics since Quincy can have AP = Dura through Blut.

Sui-Feng's says Mountain level+ when using Shunko for defence (Can generate reiatsu based defences that can cancel out incoming attacks. Should scale to her own attack potency), which is odd since just using Shunko for defense would be enough.

Toshiro's says Mountain level (Reiatsu can be used for offence and for defence, as has been demonstrated by Sosuke Aize and Kenpachi Zaraki) for his Durability Pre-Timeskip key. You could potentially substitute the reasoning using Arrancar Arc feats, but I am of the opinion that each arc in Bleach should quantify a different key since there is training or power-ups generally between arcs.
 
That thing is same for all verse, giving bleach special treatment is not fair, like low ki goku get hurt by laser, high ki- can tank haki, and i am including other verse becuase that thing is applicable to all other verse
 
How is saying AP =/= Durability special treatment? That's the standard for all verses, special treatment is actually having AP = Durability since you can lack feats for the other and just say it's equal despite no feats.
 
I mean the word fair treatment made me laugh,I mean the verse is one of the most downplayed verse in everywhere.
 
not really, is it receiving special treatment at the moment? no, it shouldn't, it did get a lot of special treatment in the past but I won't go over that now, but is it being downplayed? Hell no, there just seems to be a lack of progress due to the limited support it gets compared to a lot of other verses, due to it having a smaller fanbase on the wiki here.

Bleach also happens to fall into the same thing as Naruto.

it's extremely wanked by its fanboys


but severely downplayed by its opposition
 
lol y'all really abuse the word "wank",what is wanked?? I find that hard to believe since simple CRTs takes dozens of responses to even get agreements on.

"Special Treatment" like where and in what way? It's not like we have a staff member accepting everything we make a CRT on or anything.

Let's not ruin another CRT with complaints about who is doing what.
 
@Sigurd You do realize BFF is a staff member right?

"It's not like we have a staff member accepting everything we make a CRT on or anything"

that have been dozens of staff members that have agreed with Bleach CRT's

just because they don't agree on every CRT doesn't mean they don't support the verse
 
What does BFF being a staff member have to do with Sigurd's comment? I think you entirely overlooked his comments wording unless you're implying BFF is a staff that accepts every Bleach CRT.

I also don't know why anyone is bringing up Bleach is wanked or gets special treatment when this CRT removes special treatment. Please just stick to the topic.
 
BFF is a staff that accepts every Bleach CRT.

I never said he does, but implying staff don't care about Bleach is objectively wrong

I also don't know why anyone is bringing up Bleach is wanked or gets special treatment

no one is, Just debunking the fact that Bleach is certainly not downplayed
 
I think you missed the point of his comment, he didn't say Staff don't care, he said that Staff don't always agree to every Bleach CRT, thus it's not wanked like some people claim. You randomly said BFF out of nowhere.

I wouldn't say Bleach is downplayed, but I would say it gets overlooked and not given enough attention since it takes years to get things accepted and applied. This is like the 20th CRT of Bleach these past 2 months and we've only gotten like 4 accepted.
 
Danny1112 said:
I mean the word fair treatment made me laugh,I mean the verse is one of the most downplayed verse in everywhere.
Click to expand...
Sorry but this is 100% False. Soldier is very generous and Bleach is at a historic high-point right now.

Please try and keep things civil guys. You already chased a staff member away.
 
There's some points that I feel are flawed in a way. Byakuya's whole bankai wasn't just an offensive technique when we see that he can clearly defend with it as shown here.

Yamamoto wasn't even back fighting. He was only able to regain consciousness long enough to cast a high level kido. Afterwards he was out for the count until Ichigo jumped in.

The whole fragor point isn't really true. Ichigo didn't even slice through all of the fragors that were charged around him. He just slashed Aizen with enough force to make him let go.

As for the others. The Ikkaku part seems fine since it's blatantly stated, and the Sui Feng seems legit considering it's a one time use (or two times if you're trying to push her to the limit)

And I don't see how the Gin's speed enhancement applies to AP and durability since that's a different thing altogether, not to mention that almost everyone in bleach that isn't a full blown human has a speed enhancing technique, so that doesn't really apply here.
 
@theglassman

I'ma be upfront, I feel like you did not read my post completely or just brushed through it without opening the links.

You linked an image of Byakuya's Bankai Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. I am talking about Senbonzakura Kageyoshi's ability Senkei. Senkei is when it has abandoned defense for the sake of pure offense to kill the enemy. A thousand blades are formed by the petals of Senbonzakura and the blades have their strength explosively increased through the petals hardening into the shape of a sword. The increases is double of it's previous state.

As per Yamamoto, he was incapacitated by his own attack, but this was not a casual attack from himself, it's literally a charged amped attack, yet Yama could endure that blast and then even set another point blank blast upon himself. His base durability is higher than his amped Shikai output.

With Dangai Ichigo and Aizen, your statement of "He just slashed Aizen with enough force to make him let go" is not true since he doesn't slash Aizen. The Ultra-Fragor ring is between Aizen and Ichigo and Ichigo slashes upwards and we see the Ultra-Fragor get broken apart.

As for Gin, you straight up did not read that section if you think I only mentioned speed. I literally said: I already made a CRT about this for Gin and it was accepted even. To paraphrase, Gin's Bankai ability, Buto Renjin, amplifies his AP by an order of magnitude and doubles his Bankai's speed, nothing else is affected about him. His durability and own speed are left untouched.

I implore you to slow down and read it over again.
 
Ok, I thought it was just the bankai state in general. My bad.

Yama still was out for the count in the end after that explosion with his arm. That's not what I call "still able to fight", that's moreso a last stand type of deal.
 
Yeah Yama was in a last stand phase, but it shows that his base durability is greater than his AP from his Shikai. A casual blast from himself didn't even harm him, he needed a charged amped attack to do it, thus disproving AP = Durability.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Ichibē Hyōsube AP/Durability Revisions
Replies
6
Views
898
Arc7Kuroi
Arc7Kuroi
Guacamolefletcher
  • Locked
Royd revision
Replies
34
Views
3K
Guacamolefletcher
Guacamolefletcher
BasedNecoScaler69
  • Locked
Fullbring/ Dangai equalization
2 3
Replies
114
Views
5K
Excellence616
Excellence616
Arcker123
  • Locked
Yhwach and Aizen sniping with Reiatsu Laser beams from stars away
Replies
29
Views
3K
Arcker123
Arcker123
Arc7Kuroi
  • Locked
Bleach TYBW Anime AP/Durability Revisions [The Quincy Invasions]
3 4 5
Replies
175
Views
10K
KingTempest
KingTempest
Back
Top