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Soul Crush Doesn't Exist

she only get put on her knee when stepping out of the prison and stepping in byakuya's reiatsu range while not protected by the seki seki walls .She didn't had ANY trouble standing and moving inside of it. So it's you who are twisting things up .

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0104-010.png

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0115-001.png

If you knew bleach , you would know that your reiryoku can increase after facing death situations or after/during a battle , it have been explained by urahara during the training of ichigo. So Hanataro's and Ganju's soul got stronger after almost dying from kenpatchi unrestrained reiatsu .

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0060-017.png

We also know that kenptachi can barely control the output of his reiatsu in combat if at all , while byakuya have much more control .

So once again , you're wrong on many basic things .Rukia statement is completly valid and is confirmed MANY time in the serie , have enough reiryoku , you're fine , if you don't , you're in trouble . Reiryoku allow you to resist all soul hax in bleach as it have been showned again and again .
 
Those example, like the Slime one, Aren't wrong, it is how is treated soul manipulation, no one complain about them because probably they aren't famous enough, but it is the exact same thing, soul manipulation is treated in this way, and no matter how much you equalise, you are not gonna get resistances by any means.

like:


Resistance to Soul Manipulation (Which works on the scale of 350,000 people)
 
>she only get put on her knee when stepping out of the prison and stepping in byakuya's reiatsu range while not protected by the seki seki walls .She didn't had ANY trouble standing and moving inside of it.

Dude. It's a priso....moving is not exactly a requirement. This is a reach.

>If you knew bleach , you would know that your reiryoku can increase after facing death situations or after/during a battle

Yes I know that. And it's a good thing Hanataro and Ganju weren't battling or exposed to as much danger as you want to make it out to be here. They literally just pass out from being within Kenpachi's spiritual pressure and run away to Rukia's prison to leave Ichigo, who wasn't effected, to fight him. They weren't comparable to the Reiatsu of a Captain class Shinigami whatsoever and they weren't at risk of dying. Suggesting their spirit energy skyrocketed to such a degree while not even battling is just ridiculous.

Not even Zenkai boosts for Dragon Ball characters get away with that.

>We also know that kenptachi can barely control the output of his reiatsu in combat if at all , while byakuya have much more control .

And why would he hold back his Reiatsu output against enemies?
 
omg...

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0085-001.png

here , we see that she had to climb steps to reach the window and later is found at the base of tower meaning that she had to climb and descend those steps. if she couldn't even stand as you claim , that wouldn't be possible. i also showed two scan where she is clearly standing without any effort .

Yet she instantly collapse when outside the prison because byakuya was present and letting out his reiatsu. You'll also notice that she is fine later on even outside the prison during her transfer and during her conversation with Ichimaru who isn't leaking reiatsu and can stand and strugle without collapsing. Chapter 144 page 16 to chapter 145 page 14. And before you try to staw man that , no ,she doesn't collapse at the end because of a lack of reiryoku , but because ichimaru toyed with her psycologically .

Weird how things are when the situation differ huh ? Byakuya is present and leaking reiatsu , she instantly collapse stepping outside saying that she doesn't have enough spirit energy , yet after spending a few more days inside the prison so with even less reiryoku than before ,she is completly fine outside when she isn't assaulted by reiatsu .

You're just completely wrong. And it's really annoying how you grasp at straw time and time again .

You accepting it doesn't matter. It's how Urahara explained it and it is showned many time that that is how it work , their AP didn't shot up to insane degree , but their resistance clearly increased. You may not beleive that they weren't in mortal danger , but even ichigo , the one with the highest reiryoku out of the three, thought he was dying just by being in the range of zaraki's reiatsu. Ganju and Hanataro felt far worse and were still in mortal danger if they stayed much longer .

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0103-009.png

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0103-014.png

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0103-015.png

Hanataro went from passing out and choking from kenny's reiatsu to barely standing without collapsing in front of a casual byakuya. Even Ganju went from being made on his knees by kenpatchi's reiatsu to merely shaking in front of byakuya . Ichigo went from feeling unweel enough to have vision of his death and panting heavely from a casual kenny , to being fine when targeted by the full force of Byakuya's reiatsu while injured.

All three got upgrades in how they handled reiatsu after feeling they were gonna die just like Urahara explained , so it's consistent . He said that soul energy get stronger in faced of a mortal danger (so fighting isn't even required , just the feeling that your gonna die is enough for the soul)

Byakuya didn't want to kill them initially , he even warn ganju and only cut his arm up when ganju was attacking him directly. He only got more serious when he learned that ganju was a shiba , but he didn't turned up his reiatsu , he just got straight to shikai , wich is better.
 
>here , we see that she had to climb steps to reach the window and later is found at the base of tower meaning that she had to climb and descend those steps. if she couldn't even stand as you claim , that wouldn't be possible. i also showed two scan where she is clearly standing without any effort.

Rukia wasn't moving on her own though, she was flat out escorted by guards to and from the sekki-sekki cell, for, well obvious reasons. And don't put words in my mouth. Rukia said she couldnt move her body properly.

>Yet she instantly collapse when outside the prison because byakuya was present and letting out his reiatsu.

But again, his reiatsu wasnt the cause of her being unable to move on her own. Her losing her spirit energy in the cell itself was the cause of it. And again, Hanataro and Ganju not being crushed in the slightest also shows the reiatsu crush wasn't done at that time.

>Byakuya is present and leaking reiatsu , she instantly collapse stepping outside saying that she doesn't have enough spirit energy , yet after spending a few more days inside the prison so without even less reiryoku than before ,she is completly fine outside when she isn't assaulted by reiatsu .

The latter is false since, again, Rukia blatantly said eariler her body couldn't move properly when lacking her spirit energy and she wasn't moving at will during the latter. Guards were escorting her to the Sogyoku.

>You accepting it doesn't matter. It's how Urahara explained it and it is showned many time that that is how it work

Yes and? That doesnt give you the opportunity to assume said reiryoku increases by a ridiculous amount while hardly doing anything. It's wank. Not even Ichigo increased his reiryoku to such a degree when actually fighting in training.

Yet somehow, you expect me to believe Hanataro and Ganjo can go from passing out from Kenpachi's spiritual pressure to, a short time later, smirking in the face of Byakuya's (which, btw, is implied to be even greater than Kenpachi's) all because they ran away and lived to tell about it? That's abusing the standard of how reiryoku is increased to an astounding degree.

>You may not beleive that they weren't in mortal danger , but even ichigo , the one with the highest reiryoku out of the three, thought he was dying just by being in the range of zaraki's reiatsu. Ganju and Hanataro felt far worse and were still in mortal danger if they stayed much longer

Which is pretty laughable if Ichigo can survive by looking in Kenny's general direction. Hanataro and Ganju werent going to die being within Kenpachi's spiritual pressure, Ganju even told Ichigo not to worry about them. Thats not being in mortal danger.

And even then, even if this resulted in an increase in their reiryoku, your again trying to imply fodder who didnt stand a chance against a Captains Reiatsu got such an incredible increase out of nowhere to not be phased by Byakuya's.

>Ichigo went from feeling unweel enough to have vision of his death and panting heavely from a casual kenny , to being fine when targeted by the full force of Byakuya's reiatsu .

Okay, let's go with this logic then. Let's go with the idea that Hanataro and Ganju's reiryoku got a massive upgrade in such a short timeframe like you claim.

Hanataro was barely able to take Byakuya' reiatsu at full force after Ichigo showed up. So much so that Rukia, whom you claim couldn't even take a casual reiatsu output from Byakuya just moments prior, has to check on him. So even with the supposed increase in reiryoku compared to dealing with Kenpachi's reiatsu, Hanataro struggled with Byakuya's. Rukia should've been flat out incapacitated by it in comparison to Hanataro and she's shown to be just fine. Kneeling, being conscious enough to see Ichigo and Byakuya tango even.

"Kukui, Rukia's reiryoku increased after nearly passing out from Byakuya's reiatsu before"

I can guess you'll say this, and it doesn't matter. Even if her reiryoku increased from the slightest exposure to danger, she has absolutely no business handling Byakuya's reiatsu any better than Hanataro himself could, especially when being exposed to it himself at the same time.

>All three got upgrades in how they handled reiatsu after feeling they were gonna die just like Urahara explained , so it's consistent

Again, I don't deny their reiryoku increasing. I deny the extent of the upgrade. You have this idea that if someone is even remotely exposed to the slightest of danger, their spirit energy skyrockets all the way to the moon and back.
 
You can clearly see that she isn't being lifted and can stand , walk on her own two feets and can even strugle a bit when she's concerned for renji . She merely have her arms restrained and have a collar to prevent escape . this is what it look like when she isn't capable to move :

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0175-003.png

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0175-016.png

Completly different from the chapters i referenced, 144 and 145. Her collar and links also clearly doesn't prevent her from collapsing as she clearly does at the end of her convo with gin . So if she was incappable of standing on her own two feet when exiting the seki seki prison , she would need to be carried .But she doesn't need to when there isn't reiatsu assaulting her .

You're just being dishonnest or ignorant.


So you claim that even tho byakuya was leaking spiritual pressure that shook ganju and hannataro and even ichigo and yoruichi that are kilometers away(https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0116-033.png),rukia collapsing is just a coincidence ? Are you actually serious right now ? In particular when collapsing, not being able to move and feeling weak is one of the primary effect of not completly resisting reiatsu ?

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0410-016.png

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0410-019.png

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0413-006.png

i'm starting to really feel you are trolling or in denial .

I don't have to imply anything , it's litterally being showned and explained to us . You have to prove that this isn't how it work with scan or contradictory statements.

You imply that they remotly fight byakuya ,but nobody ever said that ( probably because you think reiatsu can be resisted by AP) but that is hardly the case . Their soul just got strong enough to survive the casual reiatsu of byakuya without danger of dying .You have no idea on how much reiryoku have to increase to perform that feat so you treat it as a massive boost without anything to back it up .

As soon as Byakuya unleash a more serious reiatsu , even hanataro can't stand up on his own and rukia is visibly shook too and can't up anymore.

Rukia gradually regain her reiryoku the longer she spend out of the seki seki ( as it constantly disperse spiritual energy while inside) as a shinigami create spiritual power as long as their heart beat. So by the rules of the verse , she gradually got more resistance , even for the few minutes she spend outside the prison watching ganju fight and talking to ichigo , that add up to the increase of reiryoku she got when exposed to danger. Not enough to do anything offensive wise , but enough to not die to reiatsu.

You can say it's absurd all you want , that is her feats and that is how the verse work with statements from urahara and mayuri to back it up . Later , after spending a good while outside the seki seki prison and regained more reiryoku, she can even resist The Man Aizen himself casual reiatsu , the characther with one of the strongest reiatsu in the verse.She can't move but she clearly isn't dying or feeling particulary unwell. So her feats are consistent , the more her reiryoku increased , not matter the cause ( danger boost or regain her own dispersed reiryoku) , the better she could resist the ever increasing level of reiatsu she was inflicted.

Rukia doesn't want anyone to be hurt or die because of her , so i don't see your point about her checking hanataro's condition .She would die for her friends , she would check on him even if she was near death . She doesn't resist it better than hanataro at all .

Again ,you can deny the extent all you want , as long as you don't provide the necesarry ammount of reiryoku that is neccesary to posses compared to the ammount of reiatsu you are inflicted with , there is no contradiction .

that doesn't change the fact that rukia state that she can't handle reiatsu when her reiryoku is low . That is proven by feats and verse mechanics many time , those that have a lower ammount of reiryoku always have more troubler with all the hax in bleach. That is the thing you can't refute, no matter how hard you try .

Going to bed right now , i will tackle your response tommorow.
 
Damn this thread has been going on for ages.

A lot of points have been repeated ad nauseam.

Not targeting any person in particular, but in general I think we should take time to understand what other people are arguing and understand the full implications of what other people are proposing.

Even though it may seem that what I am saying may come across as authoritative, that is not my attention.

It's just that it seems that we are not moving anywhere with this debate.
 
I do think we are pivoting from the point AKM was trying to make earlier.

The point is, reiryoku is being assumed to resist all of bleach's different soul haxes just because one application of soul manipulation was confirmed to be resisted by it. It being Gonzui's soul suck.

Gonzui is the only application of soul hax that is confirmed to be resisted by reiryoku. We can't just scale that to other applications of soul hax based on speculation or circumstance. If other verses have done this too, they need to also be downgraded.
 
I'm still waiting for the the required Uncontradicted evidence for the caveat. Until then it's just conjecture.

And the proof from the manga that something outside of their powerful souls allows them to resist techniques within the verse such as soul destruction.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
I'm still waiting for the the required Uncontradicted evidence for the caveat. Until then it's just conjecture.

And the proof from the manga that something outside of their powerful souls allows them to resist techniques within the verse such as soul destruction.
Click to expand...
Ah good. Now I know what's happening.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I do think we are pivoting from the point AKM was trying to make earlier.

The point is, reiryoku is being assumed to resist all of bleach's different soul haxes just because one application of soul manipulation was confirmed to be resisted by it. It being Gonzui's soul suck.

Gonzui is the only application of soul hax that is confirmed to be resisted by reiryoku. We can't just scale that to other applications of soul hax based on speculation or circumstance. If other verses have done this too, they need to also be downgraded.
Click to expand...
So this is the problem.
 
You sent those comments in reverse, because Sigurd's response was a reply to that problem.

Essentially the point of discussion is that AKM and Kukui's stance needs an actual foundation as Sigurd is pointing out that they have evidence that can't just be hand-waved
 
So all i have seen points to it being Soul hax and not AP base and there is more arguments and evidence for it being soul hax than the argument of kukui and AKM are bringing up
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
You sent those comments in reverse, because Sigurd's response was a reply to that problem.

Essentially the point of discussion is that AKM and Kukui's stance needs an actual foundation as Sigurd is pointing out that they have evidence that can't just be hand-waved
Click to expand...
Yeah, I realised they were reversed. It's just that I forgot that you can't really quote two people at the same time.

Good that you picked up on that.
 
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
So all i have seen points to it being Soul hax and not AP base and there is more arguments and evidence for it being soul hax than the argument of kukui and AKM are bringing up
Click to expand...
Yeah, I sort of agree. The arguments being made for reiatsu crush being Soul hax does seem to be stronger than those of the opposing sides so far.
 
I mean, they aren't arguing that it isn't (at least AKM isn't), but that everyone else simply doesn't scale because if the technique isn't working on anyone else that is strong, then is fairer to say the technique has a weakness and doesn't work on strong people rather than "higball" and give everyone resistance.

The issue with this is that we already take such statements perfectly well. Deciding that the technique has a weakness that at no point has even been implied just to remain on the safe side and not "highball" a verse is just... weird. Like I pointed before, "the x thing is strong, therefore the technique didn't work because it only works on weak ones" is not a safe assumption at all, "the x thing is strong, therefore it resists the influence of the technique" is the much safer assumption, with X referring to anything like soul or mind or whatever.
 
>The issue with this is that we already take such statements perfectly well. Deciding that the technique has a weakness that at no point has even been implied just to remain on the safe side and not "highball" a verse is just... weird.

Then this is something we need to stop loosely doing when it comes to a verses hax abilities and start becoming more conservative rather than just make a verse as busted as we want possible. How we would go about analyzing them though would probably need to be discussed.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Gonzui is the only application of soul hax that is confirmed to be resisted by reiryoku.
Click to expand...
I just proved to you that it is not.

Way to hand-wave clear statement and verse mechanics.

I don't even know why i bother . This isn't a crt and the opposition have brought absolutly nothing concrete since the start of the debate .Only assumptions, conjectures and straw man.

Unless the opposition bring actual statements or anti feats that soul hax in bleach isn't resisted by having reiryoku ,wich strenghen the soul, i will not waste my time any longer .
 
Tf did I come back to? Why so many walls of text
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
The issue with this is that we already take such statements perfectly well. Deciding that the technique has a weakness that at no point has even been implied just to remain on the safe side and not "highball" a verse is just... weird. Like I pointed before, "the x thing is strong, therefore the technique didn't work because it only works on weak ones" is not a safe assumption at all, "the x thing is strong, therefore it resists the influence of the technique" is the much safer assumption, with X referring to anything like soul or mind or whatever.
Click to expand...
Yes this is exactly the root of the problem. The technnique is related to the character's energy level. When the technique is just flexing your aura to crush others with it and doesn't have a single occurance of working on someone with a high energy level, it's pretty logical to conclude that it doesn't inherently work on someone with a high spiritual energy rather than everyone in the verse having resistance to it which leads to excessive inflation. You won't say Kenpachi and the others are resistant to being cut because their spiritual energy is more, you say the other spiritual energy was just not potent enough to go through Kenpachi's because that's how it works. (Also I know RC ultimately affects soul when it works, but it doesn't matter what it affects when it doesn't work in the first place.)

This is something which most staff members and others agree to. And many of them also pointed it out in the last thread. They just don't wanna take the time to repeatedly argue this over and over in a never-ending cycle.
 
> Yes this is exactly the root of the problem. The technnique is related to the character's energy level. When the technique is just flexing your aura to crush others with it and doesn't have a single occurance of working on someone with a high energy level, it's pretty logical to conclude that it doesn't inherently work on someone with a high spiritual energy

That is not the point, you are applying your own rules about equalisition, we do not grant resistances by any means, we can apply that only if it is blatantly stated, and it is not, the fact that doesn't work on someone stronger it is completely irrelevant because of the presence of opposite cases when physical weaker characters can resist the strongest char presence, when also this presence killed characters comparable to the weaker I mentioned at the start.

Your conclusion then, is wrong, futhermore, be strength based it is not enough to grant resistences, why it should? It is not mentioned in what has been accepted in the verse equalisation.

I guess I have to make a lot of CRT about Star Wars, Reincarnated as A Slime and Saint Seiya if that is the case.

> rather than everyone in the verse having resistance to it which leads to excessive inflatio

Everyone on the verse have soul hax resistances and it is already on the profiles, zampakuto are soul cutter sword generated by the soul itself, and they hit each other with that sword continuously, every one have soul resistances, reiastu crush have a similar nature, and it is based on the strength of the soul itself, it is obvious that the strongest characters like Aizen will not get soul crushed, but that doesn't really matter, you have to look at the opposite cases. It is a complete no sense give soul hax resistances to everyone stronger then them.

And as Naeblis495 said, it even works like zenkai, if you resist once, like near death experience, then you will resist even futher more, and by staying Near strong characters will also increase your latent soul strength, it is even stated, but Just the resistance, not the strength, ichigo frienda are still weak af physically
 
>I guess I have to make a lot of CRT about Star Wars, Reincarnated as A Slime and Saint Seiya if that is the case.

Go ahead then. Bleach isn't and shouldn't be the only one exception. Other verses who do the same thing without actual evidence need to be downgraded too.
 
No, because I explained in the part you didn't quoted why it is not wrong...

you should go ahead and change both soul manipulation and verse equalisation page via CRT then.

And It will not be accepted since some staff members was against verse equalisation in first place, let alone add something that will equalise even more the battle, destroying completely the accuracy of a death battle for fairness.

Even external members that doesn't even support bleach, agreed that in this thread it is legit by reading both the side arguments, actually we are the only one that proved our point with material instead of some conjectures.
 
Verse equalization has little to do with this discussion though sans the whole Caveat topic. We obviously agree resistances aren't gonna be handed out after energies are equalized, so what was the point in mentioning that?
 
Because you didn't provided "a valid and uncontradicted statement, [then it should be applicable after the equalization]" in the whole debate.

It would be useful if you read carefully all my messages.
 
Far as I'm concerned all this is still just conjecture in the opposing side to force some sort of weakness. Until some hard evidence is posted I'll have the same opinion since the start. For a caveat to be applied you need hard proof that isn't uncontradicted. Not theories that are filled with holes.

So many leaps of logic within the opposing side such as suggesting the forms of soul manipulation within the verse are resisted differently yet not one of them have supported their claims with evidence whatsoever.

Suggesting the likes of Orihime scale to these characters somehow and that she is special because she can stand in the presence of some of these people such as Yhwach.

ignoring the mechanics of the verse for some ridiculous headcanon about their resistances and arguing unknown concepts such as speeds of reiatsu that have never once been suggested. As Aerna said above

"So according to him Tatsuki, an 10-A character, has comparable Reiatsu to Yammy who is gonna be 6-C since she survived his RC? Ganju who is 8-C (and everyone else who was there confronting him) has comparable Reiatsu to 5-B Yhwach because they can stand in his presence without getting RCed?

Do you see how dumb that sounds?"
 
"The limitation of Reiatsu is it doesn't work on being with higher '''spiritual levels'''". I haven't seen anyone present this evidence.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Then this is something we need to stop loosely doing when it comes to a verses hax abilities and start becoming more conservative rather than just make a verse as busted as we want possible. How we would go about analyzing them though would probably need to be discussed.
Click to expand...
This is not... loosely done.

I am... I just... I am gonna be extremely blunt, extremely so and I apologize but...

WHAT THE ACTUAL **** IS RESISTANCE THEN!? Is it some magical ******* propierty that grows on trees and you suck into your body when you freaking eat? Do you know what having a very resilient body that can withstand disease is called? Having a strong immune system.

Things. Resisting. Because. They. Are. Strong. Makes. Complete. Sense.

We are not talking about AP here good lord, we are talking about shrugging off mental influence by having a strong mind. Resisting influence on your soul because it is strong. You know, like Gil shrugging off corruption because his ego is too immense? Strong things weathering more punishment, especially if it's shown to be the case in the verse, makes complete goddamn sense.

I am genuinely incredibly annoyed at this. Being this conservative is just becoming so uptight that nothing except the most blatant examples would ever warrant resistances. Imagine branding every single technique that doesn't work because "x is strong" as having a weakness, where X is not AP. Is the definition of madness.
 
I got a question Bleach characters already have Soul Manipulation resistance accepted for resisting attacks that damage souls like those from Quincies and Shinagimi so wouldn't that be more evidence that resistance to RC is dependent of Soul Manipulation resistance than higher AP because it feel like the former, to me?
 
Elizhaa said:
I got a question Bleach characters already have Soul Manipulation resistance accepted for resisting attack that work damage souls like those from Quincies and Shinagimi so wouldn't that be more evidence that resistance to RC is dependent of Soul Manipulation resistance than higher AP because it feel like the former, to me?
Click to expand...
that would just support it either ways, yes, if this problem get solved, then we should just find a way to qualify the potency of the soul hax for versus thread, according to the wiki standards (number of souls influenced)
 
Tyri456 said:
Elizhaa said:
I got a question Bleach characters already have Soul Manipulation resistance accepted for resisting attack that work damage souls like those from Quincies and Shinagimi so wouldn't that be more evidence that resistance to RC is dependent of Soul Manipulation resistance than higher AP because it feel like the former, to me?
Click to expand...
that would just support it either ways, yes, if this problem get solved, then we should just find a way to qualify the potency of the soul hax for versus thread, according to the wiki standards (number of souls influenced)
Click to expand...
Well in the movie is confirmed that there are infinite amounts of souls so maybe SK and SK Yhwach would get that.
 
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