Sonic's Invulnerability.

[Elizhaa]

The changes were made.

Also, I say that Invulnerability should also be removed from Shadow the Hedgehog (Game Character), Tails (Game Character), Knuckles the Echidna (Game Character), Blaze the Cat and Silver the Hedgehog's Super form also since it is like the removed Invulnerability from Super Sonic's case.

 

[Greenshifter]

Blaze the Cat as well

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I think it needs to be noted about Sonic being more of a stonewall or something like that

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah we'll first see if everyone agrees with 3 times and then apply it.

 

[Elizhaa]

Blaze the Cat as well

True. I will added it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah, three times is probably fine due to Solaris. Also, that would make the Phantom King 3 times baseline too for hurting Super Sonic

 

[BlastX]

Phantom King and Kleptomobile can only hurt him with specific attacks, otherwise he shrugs them off.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I still don't like the idea that Sonic can't lose his games once he goes Super unless it's Solaris. Idc if you call it game mechanics or not, but the idea that once Sonic goes Super, there's a massive gameplay disconnect and realistically he zero diffs the final boss doesn't vibe at all.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If that's so, wouldn't that be considered durability negation for him with the special attacks? or at least a "higher" AP rating with these attacks

 

[Greenshifter]

Well then they'd be 3 times times baseline with those specific attacks. So low 2-C, higher with [insert attack here].

 

[Elizhaa]

Yeah, three times is probably fine due to Solaris. Also, that would make the Phantom King 3 times baseline too for hurting Super Sonic

I would be fine with this point. Do you have idea in mind, for a note?

 

[Greenshifter]

@Cal there are several statement of invulnerability (meaning stone wall), some even during fights IIRC, them being stone walls also doesn't prevent them from losing if the opponent uses hax or is trying to blow up the earth, the universe or Sonic's friends for instance.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I still don't like the idea that Sonic can't lose his games once he goes Super unless it's Solaris. Idc if you call it game mechanics or not, but the idea that once Sonic goes Super, there's a massive gameplay disconnect and realistically he zero diffs the final boss doesn't vibe at all.

Well, that was always there in Sonic ever since Sonic got his Super form in Sonic 2

 

[ShakeResounding]

What's this 3x business? You lost me there.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I would be fine with this point. Do you have idea in mind, for a note?

As some other pointed out, either durability negation with these specific attacks that bypass Sonic's invulnerability, or a "higher" AP status for these attacks

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The opponents never use hax on Super Sonic, and the only time people other than Sonic are in immediate danger is the Biolizard. 9 times out of 10 the losing condition is Sonic being offed and the comes the world conquering. Only exceptions are like, Solaris and Dark Gaia (I think), both of whom could hurt Sonic anyway.

Statements shmatements. Actions speak louder than words and feats speak more than statements.

 

[Greenshifter]

They don't get hurt in gameplay most of the time and the exceptions usually revolve around one specific attack hurting them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because getting hurt in Sonic is shown by losing rings most of the time. Dude doesn't exactly have an HP stat

 

[HST_Master]

Those specific attacks are via the Phantom Ruby. Without it they can't do anything to him.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean, they're 5-B without it so obviously they can't hurt him without the Phantom Ruby.

 

[BlastX]

They're Stone Walls cause even while not using the PR they still take several hits to defeat.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I mean, they're 5-B without it so obviously they can't hurt him without the Phantom Ruby.

Point is that even with the Phantom Ruby and being at a comparable level, they can only hurt him with specific attacks.

Unrelated to Cal, my previous question went unanswered. What's this 3x stuff via Solaris about?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So Sonic can just stand there during the fight and be completely fine unless specific attacks are done?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

According to what their explaination, Yes.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Not sure why you're asking me as if I made the games, but I mean... If that's what it shows then that's what it shows. Weird gimmicks aside, such as Super Sonic's health bar in the next-gen version of Unleashed or beings that can actually damage him (Ahem, Solaris), that's just how it's kinda always been simce the beginning.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I was asking because I haven't played Mania. Sonic just takes knockback?

Also if Sonic isn't damaged by Overlord, Overlord should be downgraded.

 

[Theuser789]

Yes, they serve knockback, and no to Overlord downgrade Cal, Super Sonic's AP at his lowest is already 4-A, and he can tank his regular attacks, so 4-A

I can repost Dark's comment about 4-A, I got it saved

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Then he'd be a stone wall. And an actual showing of a stone wall, as there's no instances of his AP being on the level as his durability. Same goes for all Sonic final bosses without their own feats.

 

[Theuser789]

Oh my God Cal, really? Or maybe Super Sonic is the stonewall, I guess I got to repost his comment, he did say to repost it in dount cases

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If he's 4-A for not hurting a 4-A, he shouldn't be 4-A. Can't have your cake and eat it too, man. Do they scale to Super Sonic and being able to hurt him, making him not a stone wall, or do they not?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Wasn't Super Sonic's invulnerability was agreed to be replaced with him being a stonewall?

 

[Greenshifter]

Wow wow, every boss that attacks physically should at the very least scale to their own durability because of Newton's third. Also guys like Devil Doom who have the physiology to back up their durability should have similar AP as well. Being a stone wall shouldn't be a default assumption.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not without feats. They scale to Super Sonic. But he can't be hurt as he's a physical god who can't even be threatened lose his fights unless it's the god tier Solaris or the "outlier" Dark Gaia. So they get stomped by him and shouldn't scale to hurting him.

 

[Greenshifter]

They scale to their own dura, robots with energy attacks might be different scenario but even then, Eggman is more than capable to make stuff that has comparable AP and durability.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Why should they? They don't hurt themselves or others who can hurt them. There's zero reason for them to scale to their own durability unless they scale to being able to hurt Super Sonic. Which they don't. Because Sonic can't lose ever unless it's a sun god.

 

[Theuser789]

Cal, stop being salty because of your vision of bosses beating Sonic or not, like, half of those bosses can't even take normal damage

About to post Dark's thoughts on 4-A

 

[Theuser789]

7] 4-A


It comes from the Final Egg Blaster , Eggman casually built this weapon and attached to the Death Egg to merely to activate Emerl original program. Despite the time period, this is seen to a very simple thing he built and was not built for any battle porpouses, there could be the possibilty that Eggman can built a battle mech with that same raw power if he was forced to, Eggman most of the times expects to fight Base Sonic not Super Sonic [In Unleashed he planned to drain his power for negative use], later on he would meet his Nega self and built 2-C mechs with him since his Nega self is kinda his successor so he has the resourches to make a tier 2 weapon happen while regular Eggman cannot as Solaris was not his creation and Time Eater was already Low 2-C before being mechanized.


8] The possibilty of scaling


With that said above, in Heroes Eggman saw Overlord as something that he could not stop as he's combined his data with everyone and was above all his creations, and what could have imagined at the time to stop it as Eggman was betrayed by Metal and immediately thought of the Emeralds [Eggman did not likely quickly gained the thought to concept a tier 4 weapon due his intelligence as there is likely not a big gap of time from Heroes where Eggman was locked to Battle, so Eggman can likely concept said weapon before the betrayal]. In Battle despite happening after Heroes, he built this weapon with no problems and threated it as something not magnificent and complex only as a special weapon for that specific need. In this period Eggman did not saw tier 2 stuff sans Void/Lumina, but this being has no connection with the Chaos Emeralds.


Even if the previous stuff is not enough, the main thing is that Eggman tested the power of one single emerald and planned to search the others in Advance 3 since and he knows that the emeralds had great power since they previously stopped Overlord, so there is possibilty that they are higher that all his types weapons at the time since he wanted to search them, again the only tier 2 being he knew at the time was only Lumina and this game takes place after Battle since Gemerl is Emerl successor, also Devil Doom remarked at 4:00 that he underestimated the true power of the emeralds meaning that they have more power than he had imagined.


9] Who can possibly access it


Fully Emerald Users like Sonic, Shadow, Silver, Blaze, Knuckles, Tails, Mighty, Ray and Overlord via the Eggman stuff. That's what he said all the way back, posted the relevant part

 

[Elizhaa]

Cal, stop being salty because of your vision of bosses beating Sonic or not, like, half of those bosses can't even take normal damage
About to post Dark's thoughts on 4-A

Like Medeus said before let's stay in the topic; there is no points on attack each other feelings. So, we should have a respectful debate here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Cal, stop being salty because of your vision of bosses beating Sonic or not, like, half of those bosses can't even take normal damage

Because the idea of a massive gameplay disconnect of Sonic being able to lose at all and Sonic at the very least being able to win a war of attrition is idiotic, and either the game developers can't combine gameplay and lore to save their lives or we're doing something wrong. And I'd believe the latter before the former.

I want you to name a single video game where the narrative tension is nonexistent with the final boss. Because according to you Sonic fans, every game where Super Sonic makes an appearance is that. Lasts forever and can't be hurt by anything short of Solaris. I've seen Saitama fights with more narrative tension than that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

FEB was never implied to made causally and if anything was implied to be above the emeralds, as Emerl was programmed to go after the strongest source, which is why it override Emerl's emerald objective.