Sonic's Invulnerability.

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Most sonic games it's getting hit is a push back; especially regarding the weaker end game bosses like Perfect Chaos, Final Hazard, and Devil Doom.

 

[ShakeResounding]

So I uh...just replayed the final boss of Advance for myself and User's right. You're just stunned.

I will never admit you being right again.

Not just that one either. I love being right

 

[Theuser789]

He said User was right, he was talking about me

 

[DatOneWeeb]

You're never right, Shake.

 

[Greenshifter]

So anyways do you guys think it would be a good idea to make a thread about invulnerability in general and classify them into different types? I'm a bit busy for the moment but I should be able to do so next week.

 

[HST_Master]

@AKM Solaris is 4D might do something and he's achieved this form via Chaos Emeralds and he's their strongest foe so it could just be invulnerability caps at Solaris' level.

Dark Gaia only hurt him in some versions of the game and not others.

Except this isn't a case of Dark Gaia having to need something special to harm Sonic like PK. This is inconsistency in different versions of the pre-gen and "next-gen" games.

 

[Greenshifter]

Well then, which ones are canon? Also Dark Gaia would be superior to other bosses for hurting Super Sonic then?

 

[Theuser789]

So anyways do you guys think it would be a good idea to make a thread about invulnerability in general and classify them into different types? I'm a bit busy for the moment but I should be able to do so next week.

I like this idea, I think it's good because of how controversial this power is

 

[Greenshifter]

Yup that way we can easily differentiate on threads how someone's invulnerability actually works, we can prevent NLF and it won't just get shrugged off as stone walls instead of people having invulnerability (type 2) since chip damage would work on the former but not the latter.

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Cal I want staff opinion on that idea, even if I want you to shut up 90% ot the time ÒwÓ

 

[ShakeResounding]

You're never right, Shake.

):

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If you mean the thread on the matter, didn't Reppu do that before he left?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There was an invulnerability thread back in 2017-2018. And yes, everybody already agreed with Reppuzan regarding that we should be a lot more strict regarding the slaps of Invulnerability. But, as said above; it's still something that gets thrown around all too often.

 

[Greenshifter]

Well I don't know if anyone brought up chip damage in that thread and putting it into types should probably help since certain characters like Emu Hojo are actually invulnerable so they would get type 1, while all other cases would only have a resistance to chip damage so to speak and would for the rest be treated as stone walls and be classified as type 2.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Well the consensus here seems to be that his Invulnerability should be changed to a Stone Wall idea. If that's the case, should we gauge how much more powerful a foe must be in order to harm our little golden rodent?

 

[Elizhaa]

^^

bump.

If the concensus is that he is a stone wall, I think the changes are good enough to be apply.

 

[Elizhaa]

If that's the case, should we gauge how much more powerful a foe must be in order to harm our little golden rodent?

• Honestly, I think if a comparable opponents attack then I think he easily endured the attack.

I will say though if the opponent is strong enough to do a One-Shot, Sonic should not tank the attack.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, think some people forgot about this thread.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I will say though if the opponent is strong enough to do a One-Shot, Sonic should not tank the attack.

Then that means he isn't what people are proposing here. A Stone Wall shouldn't be able to be one-shot like someone who isn't a Stone Wall, it should take a little bit more than that because obviously they're more durable than what they can do damage-wise.

I think it needs to be a little bit above One-Shot territory. Best to talk about it and settle it here than drag it out. What do you all think?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

See the problem is, in his tier 2 keys, specifically 2-C, the thing he scales to an hurt him, and it takes two Sonics to beat Time Eater,which calls into question a handful of stone wall ness.

 

[ShakeResounding]

What? Cal, stomping and being unaffected by a Low 2-C doesn't change when you have a duplicate who can do the same. What are you even saying?

Also while 2-C Sonic can be hurt by Solaris, he's also unaffected by attacks from the Egg Wizard. Who was too powerful for Super Sonic to fight on his own.

 

[Theuser789]

The Time Eater fight does have a problem because we assume modern doesn't have a low 2-C key tbh

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Maybe Modern Super Sonic should have three tiers like this: "Varies, At least 4-A to Low 2-C to 2-C" or something like that to help explain things with time eater. I mean, Modern Sonic doesn't have to be in full power to defeat him, and 4-A Super Sonic exists too so idk

 

[HST_Master]

EW would be the outlier in this since it's way more consistent of his Invulnerability being able to deal with those weaker than him or comparable to his own strength. Else it's final attack wouldn't have meant much and wouldn't have needed Marine to distract Nega from firing.

 

[Theuser789]

The final attack was because it was going to destroy the planet, how many times must this be repeated

 

[HST_Master]

There's literally no implication outside of the name that he was aiming specifically at the planet and not at Sonic and Blaze.

C&P from one of my previous posts.

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah, quoting previous posts is literaly ad nauseum, someone else handle that

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Can we please stop going after each other's throats?

Anyway, it's best to consider Sonic inconsistent. Most of the time, his durability appears to be enhanced significantly greater than his attack potency; with exceptions being his fights against Solaris and Dark Gaia. Where his durability is about the same as his attack potency during those periods.

And we have another thread discussing Invulnerability in general. It's agreed that Invulnerability would be defined as passive Attack Potency Nullification and that it requires lore about the character being immune to conventional attacks to qualify. Statements about the character being "Indestructible, Invulnerable, Invincible, ect", showings that the character is never injured, or power ups that enable the character to take 0 damage from enemies are not enough to qualify.

 

[Greenshifter]

@DDM that's why we're here, to determine how much of a stone wall Sonic would be, this has to be settled somewhere after all.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with other staff about that it seems like the durability is not extreme enough to warrant an invulnerability rating here.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Even without true invulnerability he's still some kind of a stone wall right?

 

[Wokistan]

I think he's just usually more durable than the enemies he's fighting, though some like the mania true final boss can damage him through the super form. He doesn't have the sort of ap negation thing that I redefined invuln as

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I think he's just usually more durable than the enemies he's fighting, though some like the mania true final boss can damage him through the super form. He doesn't have the sort of ap negation thing that I redefined invuln as

He still isn't damaged much by the boss in Sonic Mania, and is completely unaffected by another baseline Low 2-C, so idk.

I don't know by how much his durability would be greater than his AP, but I would say it's at least few times more than his AP

 

[Greenshifter]

Does Sonic hurt Solaris more than Solaris hurts him? If it's about equal then I guess we could say that Sonic's dura is 3 times his AP in every fight that he's in because of Super Silver and Super Shadow also helping out.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Does Sonic hurt Solaris more than Solaris hurts him? If it's about equal then I guess we could say that Sonic's dura is 3 times his AP in every fight that he's in because of Super Silver and Super Shadow also helping out.

I guess that could work. But how would that fit with Sonic stomping the time eater?

 

[Greenshifter]

Does Sonic wreck in AP as well? Also that just means Time Eater isn't strong enough to hit 3 times above baseline low 2-C.

 

[Greenshifter]

We need to be sure that Time Eater's dura scales to his AP tho.

 

[Elizhaa]

Some Low 2-C can stomp other Low 2-C; Sonic is not special in part.

 

[Greenshifter]

That said Sonic would still be a bit different from normal stone walls since a baseline like Time Eater will never be able to hurt Super Sonic, not even after Sonic stands still for a million years and takes the attack head on.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree with other staff about that it seems like the durability is not extreme enough to warrant an invulnerability rating here.

I think he's just usually more durable than the enemies he's fighting, though some like the mania true final boss can damage him through the super form. He doesn't have the sort of ap negation thing that I redefined invuln as

I think it is fine to remove the Invulnerability profile, then. I can handled the changes later today.