Sonic's Invulnerability.

[Theuser789]

> I'm not just using headcanon, it's directly conflicts with one another. Sonic is directly worried about facing that robot by himself but is somehow still invulnerable to it in gameplay? Either Sonic's wrong or the gameplay is.

Yes you are, as I said they don't contradict you saying "Yeah they do" a hundred times doesn't make it so, all, Sonic can still be invulnerable but not be able to beat him, that's not a contradiction, both can be right, as explained which you are not adressing, you are just repeating yourself, Super forms can still be stunned and Sonic only says he can't beat him by himself, because he is too strong, that's just means Sonic's AP isn't strong enough by himself, not anything tô do with durability as you are making it

>Which is a tactic involving brute force. Which you've yet to back up your argument of beating Sonic via another method.

Except that move wasn't going to beat Sonic, did you even read what I posted? Destroying the planet wouldn't kill Sonic, but everyone he cares about, see that's already a way he would beat Sonic not via brute force, you are literaly being close minded to fit your narrative

>No it'd be an outlier, do you not know how outliers work?

Yes, but you are the one who doesn't understand, if Sonic can both be invulnerable to people comparable and stronger, that's not a outlier at all

> That backs up that Gaia somehow weakened the emeralds how?

Never said this, plus saying it's a obvious outlier because people stronger than him can't, even in 4-A

>And the Phantom King having the same tier as Time Eater is useless without context as he's only able to do that and harm sonic with the Ruby.

Never said this either, it's just both scale to baseline low 2-C feats, Time Eater erasing a universe space and time and the Phantom King creating it, showing he bypassing that is obviously to do with something special about the Ruby

>You keep repeating this yet the only showings against clear cut stronger foes is Egg Wizard

Of course, because he debunks your idea, someone stronger can't harm Sonic

>And their harming him via the forcefield Sonic made for them, and like I said, at most makes him comparable to him.

You completaly misunderstand and ignored my point, wow, actualy impressed, my point is that only their special, combined attack can actualy damage him, regular attacks can't, clear sign of superior strengh

>You're right it doesn't, in fact someone pointed out Finalhazard actually got weaker.

Wow, now instead of misunderstanding me now you are even misunderstanding others? Damm. Blast only said that his life support system got weaker, which we see in the fight by having red swelling area, but Shadow literaly remarks his power, saying "how can he have this power? Is this the emeralds?"

>Time Eater wasn't even mentioned to be impressive.

Except he was, plus if Sonic beat him himself he would have

 

[HST_Master]

Yes you are, as I said they don't contradict you saying "Yeah they do" a hundred times doesn't make it so, all, Sonic can still be invulnerable but not be able to beat him, that's not a contradiction, both can be right, as explained which you are not adressing, you are just repeating yourself, Super forms can still be stunned and Sonic only says he can't beat him by himself, because he is too strong, that's just means Sonic's AP isn't strong enough by himself, not anything tô do with durability as you are making it

Then prove it. Prove they aren't contradictions. You've yet to prove your argument of Sonic being invulnerable not contradicting his statement.

Except that move wasn't going to beat Sonic, did you even read what I posted? Destroying the planet wouldn't kill Sonic, but everyone he cares about, see that's already a way he would beat Sonic not via brute force, you are literaly being close minded to fit your narrative

It's Blaze's world dude. At most it's Tails and Marine, and again that's not beating Sonic, that's a pyyhric victory. You're reaching at this point.

Yes, but you are the one who doesn't understand, if Sonic can both be invulnerable to people comparable and stronger, that's not a outlier at all

Not if you keep repeating "Egg Wizard debunks you" and don't even want to acknowledge that Egg Wizard is the outlier and depending on the context not even legit. He has literally far more showings of fighting people comparable to or weaker than he is.

Never said this, plus saying it's a obvious outlier because people stronger than him can't, even in 4-A

Again not how outliers work.

Of course, because he debunks your idea, someone stronger can't harm Sonic

And not only is the context iffy, he's an outlier.

You completaly misunderstand and ignored my point, wow, actualy impressed, my point is that only their special, combined attack can actualy damage him, regular attacks can't, clear sign of superior strengh

And again it's literally all Sonic's power and at best makes them comparable.

Wow, now instead of misunderstanding me now you are even misunderstanding others? Damm. Blast only said that his life support system got weaker, which we see in the fight by having red swelling area, but Shadow literaly remarks his power, saying "how can he have this power? Is this the emeralds?"

@Zamasu Chan Eggman stated that the Final Hazard got weaker after losing his life support system, both in EN and JP.

-Final Hazard was stated to be considered impressive to them which again only makes them comparable at best.

 

[Theuser789]

I already proved so, you are ignoring me, it's basic common sense that I explained and you are ignoring

Being Blaze's world is irrelevant for Sonic, plus I am not reaching, I did explain which you ignored, you need to actualy adrees my points based on the burden of rejoinder

That comment you quoted literaly explains why it's not a outlier, adress what I am saying instead of just stating your points, I explained why it isn't a outlier, no idea why you are even saying that in the first place, you are just saying "outlier" to anything that contradicts you

Again with the stating you don't adress my points, adress them, that's basic debating, adress them via the buurden of rejoinder, even if it was "only" Sonic's power(which isn't otherwise he would have done it itself, next you will say the fight with Solaris was only Sonic's power) it still required a combined attack

Again, burden of rejoinder, adress instead of just repeating your statments, I explained why it isn't just "comparable" and what life support system mean, that's just meant he wasn't invencible/immortal anymore, since that's what it did, adress Shadow calling him powerful and saying he is using the emeralds

 

[HST_Master]

Except common sense would be to acknowledge the contradiction, not just turn a blind eye.

It's irrelevant to your argument, Nega wanted to kill Sonic and Co. with that attack.

That comment you quoted literaly explains why it's not a outlier, adress what I am saying instead of just stating your points, I explained why it isn't a outlier, no idea why you are even saying that in the first place, you are just saying "outlier" to anything that contradicts you

An outlier is by definition: a person or thing situated away or detached from the main body or system.

Literally all the bosses listed, the majority besides Egg Wizard, who is the minority are all either weaker or comparable to Sonic and other Super Form users. This makes Egg Wizard the Outlier.

Again, burden of rejoinder, adress instead of just repeating your statments, I explained why it isn't just "comparable" and what life support system mean, that's just meant he wasn't invencible/immortal anymore, since that's what it did, adress Shadow calling him powerful and saying he is using the emeralds

You claimed that I misunderstood what Blast said so quoted him. And no Shadow saying he's powerful doesn't equal = stronger than Shadow and Sonic, like I said that'd at best make him comparable to him. And Perfect Chaos says hi with negative energy if your gonna go the "he used the emeralds" route.

Again with the stating you don't adress my points, adress them, that's basic debating, adress them via the buurden of rejoinder, even if it was "only" Sonic's power(which isn't otherwise he would have done it itself, next you will say the fight with Solaris was only Sonic's power) it still required a combined attack

Nice false Equivalency. Sonic specifically made Shadow and Silver Super to fight Solaris. With Metal he simply gave Knuckles and Tails orbs to come along with.

I am addressing your points. They simply aren't enough of reason why to believe out of all the bosses listed, Egg Wizard is the only legit one and all the others that say otherwise are outliers.

 

[Greenshifter]

Just wondering when exactly did Sonic claim that he would have been beaten on his own? Before or after he and Blaze team up to prevent that planet-busting attack?

 

[Theuser789]

Common sense and regular logic would he be realizing there's no contradiction except the one you madd

No didn't, straight up lie, if it was just killing them Eggman wouldn't have freaked out

Yeah no, Sonic being show invulnerable to people comparable to him and them to someone stronger than him is not a outlier, outlier would be if all those bosses bypassed invulnerability but not the Egg Wizard, you are moving the goalpost so that you can claim things that go against you are outliers Like the outlier manipulation blog

Quoting doesn't change you misunderstanding him, never said he was stronger than both of them, only indivuaduly nor anything about Chaos, that was to debunk he didn't get weaker

No, not false analogy, the only diference is desingn, plus you didn't adress the special attack part

You claim to be adressing when you clearly aren't, that comment is even ironic because by saying "I am" you are doing exactaly what I said

So you are moving goalposts now, now the Egg Wizard is legit but claiming outlier, plus read above about the outlier shit

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

 

[HST_Master]

Just wondering when exactly did Sonic claim that he would have been beaten on his own? Before or after he and Blaze team up to prevent that planet-busting attack?

Before. Like right after they transform. He says they can't win unless they team up. And they didn't prevent it, in fact Marine distracted Nega before he could fire at Blaze and Sonic.

Common sense and regular logic would he be realizing there's no contradiction except the one you madd

Then prove it.

No didn't, straight up lie, if it was just killing them Eggman wouldn't have freaked out

It's almost like you ignored I said Sonic and co

Yeah no, Sonic being show invulnerable to people comparable to him and them to someone stronger than him is not a outlier, outlier would be if all those bosses bypassed invulnerability but not the Egg Wizard, you are moving the goalpost so that you can claim things that go against you are outliers Like the outlier manipulation blog

If out of all of them only one of them is stronger and by his own volition he can't win against it by lonesome, then yeah. It is. I'm not moving the goalpost, the entire point of this is to show Egg Wizard is the outlier.

Quoting doesn't change you misunderstanding him, never said he was stronger than both of them, only indivuaduly nor anything about Chaos, that was to debunk he didn't get weaker

He didn't have to say anything about chaos the point of me mentioning Chaos is in response to you saying he used the emeralds, when it's established that the positive energy that super characters utilize is inherently greater than the negative energy their enemies do. And no I didn't misunderstand him, it's literally quoted.

No, not false analogy, the only diference is desingn, plus you didn't adress the special attack part

Thats entirely Sonic's power. And yes it very much is.

So you are moving goalposts now, now the Egg Wizard is legit but claiming outlier, plus read above about the outlier shit

No I'm not, I'm pointing out your logic that EW is the only legit one and all the others simply don't count, just because?

You claim to be adressing when you clearly aren't, that comment is even ironic because by saying "I am" you are doing exactaly what I said

The pot calling the kettle black. You haven't given any reasoning over why we should consider EW to be legit.

 

[AKM sama]

100% with HST here. It's blatantly obvious that the profile takes advantage of the wording of our own invulnerability profile instead of how it's actually treated in series. It's Superman-esque invulnerability, where it's a raw stat increase and comparable attacks still mess him up.

Our invulnerability page also states that "Many works of fiction consider extremely durable characters invulnerable, but this ability is only to be added onto a page if it is made clear that it is more than simply high durability and is not contradicted. In addition, the nature and specifics of the character's invulnerability must be mentioned to provide context and avoid the No Limits Fallacy."

So what is Sonic invulnerable to? I don't see it in his profile. If it's from all kind of attacks then the requirements for getting it are extremely strict and there seems to be several contradictions suggesting it is just increased durability.

 

[Greenshifter]

@AKM sama well the Sonic supporters are saying that anyone who hurts Super Sonic should get invulnerability negation and according to Shake this has been accepted before in another thread.

Egg Salamander seems to be the odd one out since it only hurts Super Sonic with one specific attack yet this contradiction could be contradicted by Egg Wizard who has better feats than Egg Salamander and was unable to harm him.

@User something that's bothering me here is that Sonic is considered 2-C when fighting Time Eater because he stomped him. Yet for some reason he is not at Solaris' level of 2-C when fighting against Egg Salamander because he got hurt, regardless of invulnerability.

 

[Theuser789]

Already proved, read better

So? Points stands

No, you are trying to act as if the Egg Wizard can bypass it when it can't, saying your reasoning without adressing mine is not a argument, at a

Negative emeralds is irrelevant to my point, which you aren't adressing, plus as I said quoting means nothing

"No it is" is not a refute nor a argument

I literaly explained "all the others" before, don't strawman me, plus even those don't fit in your logic of superior equals bypass invulnerability that you are saying, as I adressed and commonly you ignored

I have, read better, this is my last comment because you are simply not adressing what I say nor my reasons, refuting mostly with no u, since this is your thread you are the one who needs to convince me

@AKM Sama, Sonic is stated in multiple sources and characters to be invulnerable, is show to be invulnerable in multiple games, with very few bypassing it, and usualy with reasons, this thread OP is not even to remove Sonic's invulnerability, but acting as if beings stronger than him could bypass it

@Green, Honestely Sonic should have a low 2-C key or the Time Eater to be upgraded to 2-C because he affected both the Classic and modern world

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with the OP. Invulnerability is prone to NLF, and we never grant should grant invulnerability regardless of consistent statements or a game mechanics power up. It should onlu be given to characters who have stuff like Conceptual manipulation and stuff like that. We had a long discussion about Invulnerability and why it was removed from a bunch of profiles.

Simply being invulnerable to various foes on his level isn't exactly a sign of invulnerability, but more so a status as a Stone Wall where their durability is greater than their own attack potency.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I agree with the OP

 

[Greenshifter]

@DDM Well this should be in a revision thread for the power itself tho or at the very least noted on the page if this is already agreed on. We would still have this issue if the power was removed btw since his durability would be inconsistent then unless we agree that he used a different amount of power against the Egg Salamander than against the Egg Wizard or that the Egg Salamander scales above the Egg Wizard with it's strongest attack. Also I have the feeling that the power of invulnerability is still the case in certain occasions and isn't just being a stone wall. For instance someone is invulnerable to X amounts of energy, any amount of energy less than X will not hurt said character even if said amount is 0.99X it feels as 0X for the character, while an attack that is 1.01X will hurt the character by 1.01X. So you go from the character not feeling anything to the character getting hit above their durability with only an increase of 0.02X.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

A lot of verses have their share of inconsistencies, and yes; it was already established that Sonic crew are regularly only given a fraction of the Chaos Emerald's Power and that they often fluctuate in power. But Dark Gaia and Solaris are the only ones who can actually harm the Super Hedgehogs by depleting their health as opposed to just pushing them back. But every other instance does make them appear as stone walls.

 

[Theuser789]

Those invulnerability problems seems to involve way more things and franchises then just Super forms invulnerability

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This has been accepted then?

 

[AKM sama]

@Green Actually it was discussed about the power that invulnerability to any kind of attack should only be added if it is made very clear that it isn't just high durability and there are no contradictions, at the same time there should be plenty evidences to support it, because the term is often used loosely in fiction and that's why it was removed from Superman's pages. That's why the text in the page was changed to make it more clearer.

I'm not much knowledgeable on the verse but if the instances mentioned in the OP are contradictions in the sense that there is no context given for why those attacks are bypassing said invulnerability, then it must not be actual invulnerability, not that all those attacks or characters would get invulnerability negation.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, a lot of verses do have problems with Invulnerability; it's just no one got around to looking at various profiles. Charactes from Nasuverse are examples of what Invulnerability actually is; such as Gilgamesh being "Immune to all thrown attacks" or Achilles being "Immune to all physical damage." But many verses that just have invulnerable as a throwaway line or use a power up isn't exactly true invulnerability.

Reppuzan was the main person who defined what invulnerability is.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What DDM said to a T. Super Sonic is just insanely durable, like 99% of other "invulnerable" characters.

 

[ShakeResounding]

So what happens? Tweak the durability section and add the characters to the stone wall category or something?

 

[Greenshifter]

I can understand that, maybe we should give invulnerability different types because I think some people fit into the "you don't get damaged until you are hit with an attack above a certain amount of energy, then you suddenly feel the full force of that attack" type such as Super Sonic and I assume Alien X and maybe Superman.

Sonic could potentially fall into type 1 (the way it's defined right now where you are invulnerable to attacks non-infinitely stronger than you) if it were not for the Egg Salamander not being to hit him with regular attacks but then hitting him with rockets which use the same power source (the other characters that can hurt him could have invulnerability negation due to further context), this is a contradiction and the only real way to dismiss this as outlier is to prove that Sonic was using an equal amount of energy against the Egg Wizard than against the Egg Salamander and that Egg Wizard's strongest attack is above Egg Salamander's strongest attack.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Just add "(far more durable than he is powerful)" in his durability section, but add the weakness of getting hit lowering his time as SS.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Shake do you think Super Sonic receives any damage at all by attacks which do no not make him lose rings?

@Cal Super Sonic not having a time limit was already discussed and accepted before to my knowledge.

 

[HST_Master]

Already proved, read better

Not at all, it's simply saying it's not an outlier just because.

So? Points stands

And no it doesn't, given that after rewatching the scene, there's literally no implication outside of the name that he was aiming specifically at the planet and not at Sonic and Blaze.

No, you are trying to act as if the Egg Wizard can bypass it when it can't, saying your reasoning without adressing mine is not a argument, at a

And Eggman and Sonic's statements disagree.

Negative emeralds is irrelevant to my point, which you aren't adressing, plus as I said quoting means nothing

It's irrelevant to your argument but not mine.

"No it is" is not a refute nor a argument

As is saying it's not.

I literaly explained "all the others" before, don't strawman me, plus even those don't fit in your logic of superior equals bypass invulnerability that you are saying, as I adressed and commonly you ignored

I'm not strawmanning, and most are just either weaker than him or comparable to him whether by lack of feats, contradictions, statements.

I have, read better, this is my last comment because you are simply not adressing what I say nor my reasons, refuting mostly with no u, since this is your thread you are the one who needs to convince me

I am addressing them, the answers simply don't satisfy you and I'm not gonna force you to stay.

@AKM Sama

Sonic is stated to be invulnerable but the majority of his enemies are either weaker than him or comparable to him at most. The only enemy that's full out stronger that isn't Solaris is Egg Wizard and Sonic straight up says that unless they work together he and Blaze can't beat the Egg Wizard. There's also him being harmed by others weaker than Egg Wizard such as the Phantom Ruby enhanced Phantom King, True Dark Gaia, and The Egg Salamanders missiles.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He takes knockback but not damage. Think of that invisibility item from Melee. You don't gain percentage from getting hit, but you do suffer knockback.

 

[ShakeResounding]

but add the weakness of getting hit lowering his time as SS.

Stop pushing your agenda. That's far too much of an inconsistency to add because you have way more against this than for this

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Or characters like Crocomire. Also, durability isn't exactly linear given the many examples of attacks and characters can become stonewalls for plenty of reasons. Stone Walls can take hits from enemies stronger than them and not take damage while it's also possible for some to take a little bit of damage from attacks weaker than them. It's heavily case by case.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Cal then that is not a stone wall. A stone wall takes damage, it's just not really noticeable. Sonic just straight up takes no damage, that is a power and should be in some way shape or form on his profile.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's...every fight though. Like, every fight, bar none, if he isn't outright damaged. And it's even stated. Unlike the time limit, there's literally nothing against this. HST brings this up often above. I'm not even the first person to say this on the thread.

 

[Theuser789]

Just add "(far more durable than he is powerful)" in his durability section, but add the weakness of getting hit lowering his time as SS.

No, this doesn't happen, the hit lowering time is because you get stunned thus ring count drops, which is gameplay mechanics

 

[ShakeResounding]

Super Sonic getting hit and losing rings is every fight? I'm 100% sure that's wrong

 

[AKM sama]

There's also him being harmed by others weaker than Egg Wizard such as the Phantom Ruby enhanced Phantom King, True Dark Gaia, and The Egg Salamanders missiles.

Do these instances have any actively given / justified context of why they are able to harm him?

 

[Theuser789]

The Phantom King has the explanation of the Ruby making the attacks he fires special, the rest no

 

[Theuser789]

Are you talking about this pic Cal? That's has nothing to do with lowering the time of a super form

 

[Greenshifter]

@AKM Solaris is 4D might do something and he's achieved this form via Chaos Emeralds and he's their strongest foe so it could just be invulnerability caps at Solaris' level.

Dark Gaia only hurt him in some versions of the game and not others.

 

[Theuser789]

Yes, a lot of verses do have problems with Invulnerability; it's just no one got around to looking at various profiles. Charactes from Nasuverse are examples of what Invulnerability actually is; such as Gilgamesh being "Immune to all thrown attacks" or Achilles being "Immune to all physical damage." But many verses that just have invulnerable as a throwaway line or use a power up isn't exactly true invulnerability.

Reppuzan was the main person who defined what invulnerability is.

Yeah, that's what I am saying, for example alot of video game characters have invulnerability because of invencibility power ups, which shouldn't count as invulnerability

 

[HST_Master]

Do these instances have any actively given / justified context of why they are able to harm him?

The Phantom King needs the Ruby to harm Sonic, otherwise he's weaker, the other 2 do not have anything special about them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Super Sonic getting hit and losing rings is every fight? I'm 100% sure that's wrong

So I uh...just replayed the final boss of Advance for myself and User's right. You're just stunned.

I will never admit you being right again.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Hst see above they do have something special about them. The only one who doesn't is Egg Salamander which I already described should be clarified about how powerful he is compared to Sonic and the Egg Wizard.