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Sonic vs Goku (strongest 5th 5-D character. Not smurf)

I hate you so much for using that picture of Sonichu for Sonic...why do you get pleasure out of the suffering of the innocent, you monster?

Okay now jokes aside: So even with the downgrades UT Goku still has 7 layers of passive Historical and Nonexistent Level EE, High Godly Regenration and Immortality Negation, and Power Nullification, while Sonic has like 5 or 6 layers of Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) and Information Manipulation (Type 2) hax IIRC. Now I want to wait for the Sonic bros to give their responses before giving my vote, but I feel like Goku can net a W faster then Sonic because all of his passives are due to his aura having those effects and with beyond baseline Low 1-C range to boot
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I hate you so much for using that picture of Sonichu for Sonic...why do you get pleasure out of the suffering of the innocent, you monster?

Okay now jokes aside: So even with the downgrades UT Goku still has 7 layers of passive Historical and Nonexistent Level EE, High Godly Regenration and Immortality Negation, and Power Nullification, while Sonic has like 5 or 6 layers of Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) and Information Manipulation (Type 2) hax IIRC. Now I want to wait for the Sonic bros to give their responses before giving my vote, but I feel like Goku can net a W faster then Sonic because all of his passives are due to his aura having those effects and with beyond baseline Low 1-C range to boot
Click to expand...
Can Causality Manip revert the EE? it's Passive for Sonic
 
Brogeefrong said:
Can Causality Manip revert the EE? it's Passive for Sonic
Click to expand...
I'd say yes under normal circumstances if it's passive for Sonic, but if Sonic's passives only extend to 6 layers of Causality Manipulation for Sonic then I don't think he can counter 7 layers of EE from UT Goku.

Of course Sonic has 6 layers of concept and information hax under his beckoning call so, for now at least, I don't think it's a stomp in Goku's favor or anything
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I hate you so much for using that picture of Sonichu for Sonic...why do you get pleasure out of the suffering of the innocent, you monster?

Okay now jokes aside: So even with the downgrades UT Goku still has 7 layers of passive Historical and Nonexistent Level EE, High Godly Regenration and Immortality Negation, and Power Nullification, while Sonic has like 5 or 6 layers of Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) and Information Manipulation (Type 2) hax IIRC. Now I want to wait for the Sonic bros to give their responses before giving my vote, but I feel like Goku can net a W faster then Sonic because all of his passives are due to his aura having those effects and with beyond baseline Low 1-C range to boot
Click to expand...
the High Godly regen was removed from them as well actually

as for the passives of his aura......hm, i think Sonic's Chaos Energy aura could counter it, since it is conceptual and Heroes lost its ability to affect concepts


either way, it doesn't matter because if Sonic has 1 shot wincons with his passives, then this can't be added since him affecting Goku with them would not be possible since Goku would normally blitz them with 2 temporal dimensions immeasurable speed, and via Speed Equal rules, a win that depends on something that the faster char would normally blitz can't be added

so either way this needs to be closed
 
omegabronic said:
the High Godly regen was removed from them as well actually

as for the passives of his aura......hm, i think Sonic's Chaos Energy aura could counter it, since it is conceptual and Heroes lost its ability to affect concepts


either way, it doesn't matter because if Sonic has 1 shot wincons with his passives, then this can't be added since him affecting Goku with them would not be possible since Goku would normally blitz them with 2 temporal dimensions immeasurable speed, and via Speed Equal rules, a win that depends on something that the faster char would normally blitz can't be added

so either way this needs to be closed
Click to expand...
i still gotta bring up how sonic doesnt have 2 temporal dimension stuff, when there are 4D timelines in Sonic + The 5D axis on MW, also it only doesnt count if the Faster Character has a speed disadvantage that they wouldnt have against a slower character when speed is equal, like a speed amp the slower character has
 
omegabronic said:
the High Godly regen was removed from them as well actually
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Son Goku (Super Dragon Ball Heroes)

Son Goku (孫そん悟ご空くう, Son Gokū?), referred to as "CC Goku" by fans, is a version of Goku in Super Dragon Ball Heroes who is a major protagonist in the game's narrative, appearing in the Universe Mission, Big Bang Mission and Ultra God Mission. He is confirmed to have experienced anime version of...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
image.png


Then I think this has to be removed from Goku's profile then, unless it's unrelated to Regeneration by itself.

Still Sonic's conceptual energy would be a massive issue if UT Goku can't nullify concepts anymore, but Goku's faster as you said so I honestly don't know who wins now
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Son Goku (Super Dragon Ball Heroes)

Son Goku (孫そん悟ご空くう, Son Gokū?), referred to as "CC Goku" by fans, is a version of Goku in Super Dragon Ball Heroes who is a major protagonist in the game's narrative, appearing in the Universe Mission, Big Bang Mission and Ultra God Mission. He is confirmed to have experienced anime version of...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
image.png


Then I think this has to be removed from Goku's profile then, unless it's unrelated to Regeneration by itself.

Still Sonic's conceptual energy would be a massive issue if UT Goku can't nullify concepts anymore, but Goku's faster as you said so I honestly don't know who wins now
Click to expand...
Zamasu’s high godly was untouched, and the high godly negation comes from negating his regeneration.
 
Can Sonic survive the 7-layer passive aura (history EE plus one-shot AP)? If he can, he just wins; if he can't, it is probably inconclusive because both have passives.
 
ok, given the Speed equal of this match and that Goku's Aura can't bypass Sonic's due to the latter being conceptual, this is my take:

Sonic:
  • Haxes that can one shot Goku like Info type 2, Concept type 1
  • An explosive Aura to attack and push Goku away if he comes too close
  • Can escape Goku's BFR with his Superior range
  • Invulnerability so that Goku's AP advantage is not much relevant even with his Explossive Aura
  • Purification and emphatic manip to purify Goku's Emotions and make him not want to fight anymore
  • Due to Chaos Energy's Conceptual nature, Goku can't really affect it to hax it, Sonic himself however he can
i guess that is about it for the relevant stuff for this match

as for Goku:
  • the non Aura passive version of his Existence and Non Existence erasures could erase Sonic, since it wouldn't need to travel the aura to reach him
  • his time stops and manipulation scale to 2 temporal dimensions, bypassing Sonic's resistances, so he could just stop Sonic in time to finish him
  • More layered Fate manipulation to make himself win, altho i don't remember if it can still affect acau type 4 beings, also isn't passive
  • Subjective reality to just.....wish Sonic away



My vote? eeeehhh, i would like more discussion about which of Goku's wincons are IC for him to use, and maybe i forgot some, i dunno, would also like more discussion in general
 
omegabronic said:
ok, given the Speed equal of this match and that Goku's Aura can't bypass Sonic's due to the latter being conceptual, this is my take:

Sonic:
  • Haxes that can one shot Goku like Info type 2, Concept type 1
  • An explosive Aura to attack and push Goku away if he comes too close
  • Can escape Goku's BFR with his Superior range
  • Invulnerability so that Goku's AP advantage is not much relevant even with his Explossive Aura
  • Purification and emphatic manip to purify Goku's Emotions and make him not want to fight anymore
  • Due to Chaos Energy's Conceptual nature, Goku can't really affect it to hax it, Sonic himself however he can
i guess that is about it for the relevant stuff for this match

as for Goku:
  • the non Aura passive version of his Existence and Non Existence erasures could erase Sonic, since it wouldn't need to travel the aura to reach him
  • his time stops and manipulation scale to 2 temporal dimensions, bypassing Sonic's resistances, so he could just stop Sonic in time to finish him
  • More layered Fate manipulation to make himself win, altho i don't remember if it can still affect acau type 4 beings, also isn't passive
  • Subjective reality to just.....wish Sonic away



My vote? eeeehhh, i would like more discussion about which of Goku's wincons are IC for him to use, and maybe i forgot some, i dunno, would also like more discussion in general
Click to expand...
what about causality hax
 
omegabronic said:
My vote? eeeehhh, i would like more discussion about which of Goku's wincons are IC for him to use, and maybe i forgot some, i dunno, would also like more discussion in general
Click to expand...
I mean if it means anything to you, Omega, the part of Goku'a aura with the EE and stuff is treated as being a side effect of UT Goku's aura and it passively affecting his opponent on his profile so take that for what you will in regards to if Sonic can get counter that faster then Goku's aura can flare:

"Overwhelming Aura: Has an overwhelming aura that's stronger[72] than even the Universe Tree's Aura, contains God of Destruction Power and Time Power in it. It passively affects his opponents and also releases the raw destructive power of his Ki"
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I mean if it means anything to you, Omega, the part of Goku'a aura with the EE and stuff is treated as being a side effect of UT Goku's aura and it passively affecting his opponent on his profile so take that for what you will in regards to if Sonic can get counter that faster then Goku's aura can flare:

"Overwhelming Aura: Has an overwhelming aura that's stronger[72] than even the Universe Tree's Aura, contains God of Destruction Power and Time Power in it. It passively affects his opponents and also releases the raw destructive power of his Ki"
Click to expand...
that would nescesitate the Aura to touch Sonic, which would need to bypass Sonic's own aura first
 
How layered is Sonic’s causality manipulation? Goku resists the dark factor, which has combat-applicable causality manipulation.
 
Last edited:
omegabronic said:
i always forget that Sonic's Info manip also has Law and Causality hax with it, dunno what extra role they would have here tho
Click to expand...
AFAIK, Goku only resists 3 layers of Causality Manipulation thanks to resisting Dark Factor while Sonic's Causality hax has 6 layers of it's tied to his CM1 and Info hax. So, if you go by that logic, Sonic will have the ability to revert any of Goku's actions back to before they even happened so the EE would be difficult for Goku to land on Sonic if it's constantly reverted
 
Brogeefrong said:
DBH no longer has Causality Manipulation resistance cuz Dark Ki Causality Manip is now Non Combat Applicable
Click to expand...
Dark Factor still has Causality Manipulation and it's not noted as being non combat applicable, but it doesn't matter if it's applicable or not because Sonic's causality hax has more layers then Goku.

Honestly I'm now starting to slide in Sonic's favor, but we need a Heroes bro to come in to lay out the facts about Goku so I'll still refrain
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
AFAIK, Goku only resists 3 layers of Causality Manipulation thanks to resisting Dark Factor while Sonic's Causality hax has 6 layers of it's tied to his CM1 and Info hax. So, if you go by that logic, Sonic will have the ability to revert any of Goku's actions back to before they even happened so the EE would be difficult for Goku to land on Sonic if it's constantly reverted
Click to expand...
the 6 layers are for Abstraction, they don't work for potency layers afaik
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Son Goku (Super Dragon Ball Heroes)

Son Goku (孫そん悟ご空くう, Son Gokū?), referred to as "CC Goku" by fans, is a version of Goku in Super Dragon Ball Heroes who is a major protagonist in the game's narrative, appearing in the Universe Mission, Big Bang Mission and Ultra God Mission. He is confirmed to have experienced anime version of...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
image.png


Then I think this has to be removed from Goku's profile then, unless it's unrelated to Regeneration by itself.
Click to expand...

This is because Zamasu infinite resisted a history-level erasure of Zeno (I remember it was something related to this and I don't know if it changed)
 
Okay sooo... Goku being deprived of his CM and Info hax is a massive "Oof" for him here. All he can rely on now is the Time manipulation he got from TP atm.

Problem here is that Goku never used his abilities in offensive way but rather he always used it in defensive way aka as a resistance which makes sense given he is a brawler for the most part and not a mage. So uhh... Yeah... He would likely lose in this case given Sonic is much more into using his abilities unlike Goku.
 
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