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Sonic revisions (Because the last page is dead)

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The_Smashor

The_Smashor

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Yes. This is for tier 5 base Sonic. Also note that I am 100% fine with this thread being necroed, and request that this is not closed if necroed. Now then, to the basis of my arguement:

The power of the Chaos Emeralds
As stated in Sonic Advance 3's manual and shown in the intro, Eggman was able to split earth in seven using Chaos Control, powered by one emerald. Note that this splitting is never shown on screen, so it is not possible to calc. I'm no expert, but I would say this is at least into tier 5. Note that on more than one occasion Sonic and other characters have fought enemies with one chaos emerald or more while they had none (Chaos 1-6 come to mind here)

What this means
The revalations with the Chaos Emeralds mean that all forms of Chaos as well as Emerl would be tier 5.. With one chaos emerald being tier 5, that would mean that the following tier 5 characters that Sonic has fought without any emeralds himself would be as follows:

Chaos 1

Chaos 2

Chaos 3

Chaos 4

Chaos 6

Ultimate Emerl

Several others that I'm probably forgetting

Note that Dark Gaia and Perfect Chaos were excluded as Sonic had at least some of the emeralds during both of their boss fights (Late game unleashed and mid game Generations). This means that 5-A base Sonic is FAR from an outlier. And if you say it's an outlier since it's only from two games... Explain this. All of Bomberman's tier 3 or higher feats only come from his two Nintendo 64 games, and yet that is what is used for his profile. If it's several fights across two games, it's not an outlier. Not to mention I probably forgot several.

Also, since one Emerald is 5-A, this would also apply to the classic games. This would only effect final bosses like the Death Egg Robot and both Mecha Sonics, a large amount of Classic Sonic would still be 8-A without the emeralds. Espesially since a few Classic Sonic games don't even have the chaos emeralds. Though since the bad endings exist, this part may not be entirely valid.

Verdict
Reasons for tier 5 base Sonic:

  • Several characters have fought characters with emeralds while they had none (Various characters vs Chaos 1-6, Sonic vs Emerl, Death Egg Robot vs Sonic, Mecha Sonic vs Knuckles, etc...)
  • There are more than enough instances of this for this to not be an outlier
Reasons against tier 5 base Sonic:

  • Attacks that are below this level at minimum (Like Infinite's star) have threatened to kill Sonic and co. Note that the size of an attack is not the end all be all for it's AP and author arrogence is likely in play here (When an author dosn't know how strong they've made a character).
 
Wow, that's a massive extrapolation if I've ever seen one. You're telling me that because the offscreen feat sounds like one that was calculated, they're the same tier? That's like saying every offscreen planet buster is on par with Frieza's feat.
 
I mean the means used to reverse it are similar to the means used to reverse the 5-A planet busting in Sonic Unleashed.
 
One chaos emerald preformed the bust. Namely, it was stated that Chaos Control is what did it. Even if it's not 5-A, it's definatly in tier 5.
 
I do think tier 5 for base should be reconsidered especially since the classic cast just fought on par with a 7 emerald amped Metal Sonic.
 
Modern Sonic is clearly stronger than Adventure Sonic. If Modern Sonic does get upgraded to tier 5, I would suggest separating Adventure Sonic and Modern Sonic where the key has them in the same section. Adventure stays at High 6-A and Modern gets the upgrade.
 
ShadowWarrior that already happened in the past and it was rejected. Since the Smashor made another thread i took the liberty of closing and will not reopen the other thread since its the same as this. Eggman took the negative energy from Super Sonic in order to bring out Dark Gaia, so its not a single emerald feat same for the Advance one as i specified in the other thread. I rejected many times 5-A Sonic, because the Sonic series has many outliers we should not scale their base form to the fully chaos emerald empowered beings, also we don't scale them nor the bosses to the number of emerald they have because its the same as suggesting that the Chaos Emperor is equal to Metal Overlord, which is obliviously wrong since just because they have the emeralds doesn't that they can use all of their power [Chaos, likely The Final Egg Blaster and the Space Colony Ark can do so], which can only be done for the heroes once all of them are gathered.
 
I agree with Dark649, base Sonic clearly doesn't scale to Dark Gaia or Perfect Chaos because they're both canonically overwhelmingly stronger than base Sonic and Sonic can only hurt them by attacking their eyes. A bee sting can easily harm a giant animal's eye; that doesn't make Bees Wall level. And those same animals sneezed on insects without killing them, it doesn't give those insects Wall level durability.

Also, I think a new discussion rule regarding 5-A base Sonic is in order.
 
HOLD IT!

You're turning the attention away from the main discussion. On how chaos emeralds are tier 5 individually. I agree that Sonic dosn't scale to Perfect Chaos or Dark Gaia, but this is NOT the arguement being used!
 
Dark already addressed that part as well. Individual Chaos Emeralds having tiers also makes it seem inconsistent as he mentioned. There have been times where 2 or more Protagonists where fighting on equal grounds despite character A possessing 1 or 2 Chaos Emeralds and character B possessed none and vice versa.
 
Base Sonic is not tier 5 as its only for Chaos-6 and six emeralds space colony arc, which Sonic does not scale.
 
Except individual Chaos Emeralds never showcased any Tier 5 feats; all feats 5-A and above were performed by enemies with all 7 Chaos Emeralds. Except for Chaos amped by 6 Chaos Emeralds was 5-B, but Sonic doesn't scale to that either for reasons mentioned above and multiple times on previous threads.
 
Eggman used the seven emerald in Advance to split the planet if the Master Emerald, which can empower someone to a Super Form and can neutralize their power was required to undo the splitting.
 
No, he used ONE emerald in advance. Show proof that it was seven emeralds, and not one as shown in the intro cutscene!
 
We see Eggman obtaining one emerald in the intro, but its likely that was the last one he was missing.
 
Where are the other ones? If you cannot prove that the other ones were there, then you are mearly using baseless speculation. I know of your bias. Your tricks will not work on me.
 
@Smashor please calm down. Eggman typically has his other Emeralds stored in his machines, and considering Sonic still needed all 7 Emeralds in order to counter that feat, it's far more reasonable to assume the same require meant vice versa; Eggman having all 7 Emeralds as well.
 
You are still using speculation. Proof! I said PROOF! We only know what is shown, and that is what we will use unless you show definitive proof.
 
Its common logic to say that if Eggman needed six emeralds to perform a 5-B feat in Adventure and Black Doom needed five for a tier 6 feat in Shadow the Hedgehog, one of them cannot produce 5-A damage.
 
It isn't nessasarily a 5-A feat. You said yourself, I am only comparing the feat to another. It is entirely possible that the feat is 5-B or 5-C. Also, don't close this. I know you want to. I know your hatred of the concept of tier 5 base Sonic. If I could, I would ban you from this discussion, as you are immeasureably biased for a knowlogable member and an administrator.
 
Assuming Eggman only had one Emerald is also Speculation. You don't get to see the rest of the inside of Eggman's ship, so he could have other glass containers containing the other 6 Emeralds for all we know. Additionally, it's still a plot in the rest of the game that Sonic gets each of the 7 from what was already in Eggman's possession before hand.
 
Assuming that he had all 7 is even more speculative. We are shown one in a glass case. We do not see any more room on the panel he used for any other emeralds. We are only shown one emerald, so we must assume he had ONE emerald. We cannot assume he had more, for we lack proof he had more.
 
Unfortunatly, I will be absent for the next several hours. I will close this until I return to prevent any baseless claims or speculation from being beleived until I return.
 
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