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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

tails summons the god damn tornado 2 oh my god... in the perfect timeline he uses the hook gloves and energy hand cannon used in sonic battle, im hoping for that timeline. most hype out of all three guys shown so far

amy's tarot card reference to CD is kinda eh to me and knuckles is just gonna punch things hard like he always has.
theres not much room to improvise for knuckles other than making the freeze frames longer and adding more effects to give the illusion that he's super strong, or just ripping his moves from battle and giving him rock throws, a falcon punch, burying into the floor and uppercuts... he never was one to have a ton of things to pull out like tails or amy. at least amy also has the hammer in her back pocket in addition to the cards

sega didn't specify three new characters, only that there would be new ones, so its possible that sage telekinesis tomfoolery (alternatively, eggmobile eggman with sage assist?) can happen too
 
Ailamiona said:
he never was one to have a ton of things to pull out like tails or amy.
Click to expand...
He can shoot lightning from his hands, drop meteors, cause explosions, etc. Never underestimate my GOAT
Sonic-the-Hedgehog-2-Knuckles-Chuckle.jpg
 
Wait, the update that comes out today will Retcon the fight with the End? Would we have to divide the profile like it was before the Beyonder who had a profile for his pre-Recton and post-retcon self?
 
It's more likely to see downgrades than anything. In fact, with Blaze and Silver just spending their times in the present time Sonic world he might get the chance of realizing his dream of reducing the scope of the series to just isolated islands and kingdoms in the planet. He was very clear about disliking Blaze and Silver just always asking for dimensional and time travel and would prefer if that element was dropped.
 
It would feel bad for me when it's basically removing characters from their background because new writers don't know to explore those elements (Or can't for some mandates)

The truth is that a lot of those elements were a part of the original development and are now just getting removed because they want to limit the scope of the world instead of embracing what it always was.

Like when Scooby-Doo movies wanted to follow-up movies and series with real monsters while in mandates that "no monster should be real", basically going against the charming elements of the previous works. I would far prefer to not touch them if the result of touching is just denying completely what it was.
 
Executor_N0 said:
It would feel bad for me when it's basically removing characters from their background because new writers don't know to explore those elements (Or can't for some mandates)

The truth is that a lot of those elements were a part of the original development and are now just getting removed because they want to limit the scope of the world instead of embracing what it always was.

Like when Scooby-Doo movies wanted to follow-up movies and series with real monsters while in mandates that "no monster should be real", basically going against the charming elements of the previous works. I would far prefer to not touch them if the result of touching is just denying completely what it was.
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I'll keep saying this until the cows come home, WoG is lame. Worst case scenario those elements may become shallow and situational plot points to justify removing characters from the narrative to add artificial stakes, E.g; a powerful new villain turns up that ONLY Sonic can defeat (due to plot) yet conveniently Shadow is MIA, Blaze has an emergency back in her dimension, Silver gets taken by a "random" time portal, Knuckles is "busy" protecting the Master Emerald on Angel Island, Amy has been kidnapped for the umpteenth time, etc.

I get trying to make a world orderly and concise but if it comes at the cost of pointless retcons, drastically limited world building, appeal to reality and causing more inconsistencies while overruling the work and writing of others then it just comes across as being selfish and kinda egotistical tbh (hmmm... remind you of someone?).

I honestly don't care how powerful the Sonicverse is but I highly doubt Sega will allow years of long established lore, world building and characterization to be dunked on (again) after the last massive fan backlash and the clear drop in game sales as a result compared to Sonic's peaks in the 90s and early 00s.

I dunno if this a "hot take" but I overall prefer Paramounts take on the Sonic franchise (lorewise) over both IDW (minus a couple of arcs) and Prime.
 
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
I'll keep saying this until the cows come home, WoG is lame. Worst case scenario those elements may become shallow and situational plot points to justify removing characters from the narrative to add artificial stakes, E.g; a powerful new villain turns up that ONLY Sonic can defeat (due to plot) yet conveniently Shadow is MIA, Blaze has an emergency back in her dimension, Silver gets taken by a "random" time portal, Knuckles is "busy" protecting the Master Emerald on Angel Island, Amy has been kidnapped for the umpteenth time, etc.

I get trying to make a world orderly and concise but if it comes at the cost of pointless retcons, drastically limited world building, appeal to reality and causing more inconsistencies while overruling the work and writing of others then it just comes across as being selfish and kinda egotistical tbh (hmmm... remind you of someone?).

I honestly don't care how powerful the Sonicverse is but I highly doubt Sega will allow years of long established lore, world building and characterization to be dunked on (again) after the last massive fan backlash and the clear drop in game sales as a result compared to Sonic's peaks in the 90s and early 00s.

I dunno if this a "hot take" but I overall prefer Paramounts take on the Sonic franchise (lorewise) over both IDW (minus a couple of arcs) and Prime.
Click to expand...
I don't think WoG has a lot to do with this. Except for the times, Ian is clearly doing some trolling for power scaling or similar, most of what he says that matters for this kind of discussion is about the internal discussions of the series. Like the whole Two Worlds stuff, he wasn't making that up, if anything, it was a look into the backstage for stuff they hadn't planned to show yet, but it was already showing its signs (According to Ian, Sonic X was already about introducing the concept and Sonic Forces designer stated making use of that concept making the background). If anything, the WoG on that element that soon helped fans to learn about it and backlash against that lore change before it was too late.

The same goes with other WoG statements that are merely "we are doing X, the Y you saw in Z was a foreshadowing of that change to test the waters) more helped fans to stop the changes before it was too late.

The changes Ian mentioned are already affecting the story. Just a few issues ago Silver said he couldn't just travel on his own (Even though the Sonic Channel profile just said he used chaos control to do that), and Blaze said she couldn't just teleport at will and just would go in and out of her and Sonic's world without much freedom. So what he is saying isn't just WoG, the changes are already on their way and if what Ian said about FFF profiles being a tease to their other plans, it's just getting worse.

The problem really never was WoG on its own (Especially due to how blurry the line between what is and isn't the work itself is nowadays), it's with the staff as a whole, going from those who make the script to the planners and the head office that puts the rulings of what can and what can't.

What I do see is that a lot of the buildup from past materials is now getting erased because "people never knew about that" or "it needs to be simpler", and I really can see part of this being just the staff not knowing how to manage the world of Sonic as it always was, so instead of getting the staff to learn about it and make a comprehensive understanding of the series, we get a staff that is trying to remove elements of the series they don't think are important, even though they are either charming elements that make the world feel more fantastical, or literally very important to the very meaning of Sonic itself.

If anything, the fact that the current staff never addressed the origin story of Sonic made by Oshima and the early notes of the character just shows that there's a very foundational problem here. Sonic and its world are supposed to be over-the-top and have this magical feeling with a character that is basically freedom itself. The whole "two-worlds" stuff was most likely a misunderstanding of the origin story that did state there was a human world and a magical world, if more of the staff read their own stuff (It was literally printed on Sonic Jam's guidebook), maybe they would have gotten what it was. In fact, one of the reasons why I enjoyed Kishimoto's Japanese script was because he really seemed to understand that aspect of Sonic and made it the very foundation of his version of the story.
 
Eseseso said:
Here's hoping The End gets some upgrades from Final Horizon!

Either that or Game Sonic finally getting Low 1-C
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I heard from someone that Ian said that if you liked Shadow The Hedgehog you’ll like Final Horizon. So I would assume there’s different endings/possibilities?
 
I literally think it's very difficult for me to downgrade time eater, I mean, how the hell could he downgrade it?what,he is gonna make all those places in time be just ''the places''and not the enteir timelines?
 
Theuser789 said:
I like that people are saying Flynn will only bring downgrades even though with him we got:

-The strongest villain
-Solid 2-B Multiverse.
-Possibly 2-A.

When before him, that was unthinkable.
Click to expand...
Not to mention more recent games (Forces, Mania & Frontiers) still have things that are cosmic in scope
 
Theuser789 said:
I like that people are saying Flynn will only bring downgrades even though with him we got:

-The strongest villain
-Solid 2-B Multiverse.
-Possibly 2-A.

When before him, that was unthinkable.
Click to expand...
The strongest villain title was had by Mega Death Egg Robot, Time Eater, Egg Wizard and Solaris.

In my opinion it should be a solid 2-A multiverse since Tails explicitly mentioned endless possibilities and Ian clarified that possibilities are worlds many times.
 
Theuser789 said:
I like that people are saying Flynn will only bring downgrades even though with him we got:

-The strongest villain
-Solid 2-B Multiverse.
-Possibly 2-A.

When before him, that was unthinkable.
Click to expand...
What strongest villain? The one he says is Planet Level at most? From what we know, the basic basis for The End came from Kishimoto, and going by what his script says and what Ian says, Ian currently is downplaying more the nature of The End than Kishimoto. Even the notion that Cyberspace is really a dimension and a whole reality on its own gets a bit wrong if you ask Ian and he says it's just high-level virtual reality and not really another universe.

And although I think Ian did write Tailstube, the content as a whole is a culmination of all the lore team, not just himself (While for Frontiers script other than what came from Kishimoto we know it was Ian's ideas). So I don't know for sure if we can say "2-B multiverse, maybe 2-A" really came from him.
 
Imagine if The End's True Form is Low 1-C, it'd be ironic since LaserPrecision tried giving Solaris a 5-D true form which was rejected hard.
 
Executor_N0 said:
What strongest villain? The one he says is Planet Level at most? From what we know, the basic basis for The End came from Kishimoto, and going by what his script says and what Ian says, Ian currently is downplaying more the nature of The End than Kishimoto. Even the notion that Cyberspace is really a dimension and a whole reality on its own gets a bit wrong if you ask Ian and he says it's just high-level virtual reality and not really another universe.

And although I think Ian did write Tailstube, the content as a whole is a culmination of all the lore team, not just himself (While for Frontiers script other than what came from Kishimoto we know it was Ian's ideas). So I don't know for sure if we can say "2-B multiverse, maybe 2-A" really came from him.
Click to expand...
Also I would argue 2-B and higher Sonic would've been fine without Ian's input, however Ian's input did solidify it more.
 
People got the most massive hate boner for Ian like he didn't write one of the best Sonic stories ever(Metal Virus). I get that his power scaling is shitty, and y'all are mad that he wants to make the Sonic Multiverse smaller, but he's a writer not a powerscaler. He isn't trying to downgrade your verse just cause he can, chill.
 
You know, I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I'm going to wait a bit to fully sink my teeth into Final Horizon because holy crap after spending months using different physics mods on PC there's just something the base game's physics that makes it borderline unfun to play.

Now I'm not saying this is going to hinder my enjoyment of this DLC but, I think mods have permanently spoiled my opinion on non modded Frontiers' physics and stuff.
 
JJSliderman said:
Well I do appreciate the DLC adding the spindash to put momentum in the game to some extent.
Click to expand...
Yeah but that's honestly my biggest complaint about Sonic Frontiers: That maybe it's just a me problem, but I can't stand how SLOW Sonic runs even when you use the boot. As someone who's sunk so many hours into Sonic Unleashed, Generations, the Adventure titles, and etc Sonic Frontiers unmodded feels like whenever you're trying to go fast it's like someone is pushing against you to make it so that you got to take your time.

I'm not just nitpicking here, am I? Because I swear even when you max out his speed, Sonic still feels like he's not going fast as he normally should.
 
That_moron2 said:
People got the most massive hate boner for Ian like he didn't write one of the best Sonic stories ever(Metal Virus). I get that his power scaling is shitty, and y'all are mad that he wants to make the Sonic Multiverse smaller, but he's a writer not a powerscaler. He isn't trying to downgrade your verse just cause he can, chill.
Click to expand...
There are of course different types of writers that have different views on different aspects of writing, which includes worldbuilding just as much it includes dialogue. I enjoy most of Ian's stories (Even ones that a lot of people hate like House of Cards) and I like when he gets to make additions to the world and streamline stuff. I for example enjoyed when he did the callbacks in Frontiers or Eggman mentioning Fang's previous names.

But there are things I enjoy that he does, and things I don't enjoy. You can enjoy his script work, while disliking the worldbuilding (In the same way I can enjoy Kishimoto's worldbuilding while disliking his script work).

And that is fine, and not exclusive to Sonic. If I say that I dislike the additions that Jason Aaron's runs on Thor and Avengers did, I can still like the story itself even if I don't see it being a faithful representation of the world previous to his work (In the same way I can love both the worldbuilding and the script of Al Ewing's recent Immortal Thor stories).

So, at least for me it has nothing to do with power scaling, but the worldview and background the series is having and the retcons I don't see as being good for the series. Like, I dislike the way they arranged the stories of the classic as back-to-back stories, greatly reduced the time Tails took to met with Sonic, or even the fact that Tails had adventures before meeting Sonic or that Sonic and Eggman had a long history of fights dating far back to the first game.

In the same way, the Special Stages were always a part of the story, it was constantly mentioned in the story that it was the reason it was hard to get Chaos Emeralds, but now for some reason, the Special Stages are a game mechanic alongside Rings. Of course, a lot of the changes aren't just caused by Ian, like the infamous "The Master Emerald can't do anything, Knuckles is just protecting a big old rock" wasn't his idea, and I dislike it as well.
 
Executor_N0 said:
There are of course different types of writers that have different views on different aspects of writing, which includes worldbuilding just as much it includes dialogue. I enjoy most of Ian's stories (Even ones that a lot of people hate like House of Cards) and I like when he gets to make additions to the world and streamline stuff. I for example enjoyed when he did the callbacks in Frontiers or Eggman mentioning Fang's previous names.

But there are things I enjoy that he does, and things I don't enjoy. You can enjoy his script work, while disliking the worldbuilding (In the same way I can enjoy Kishimoto's worldbuilding while disliking his script work).

And that is fine, and not exclusive to Sonic. If I say that I dislike the additions that Jason Aaron's runs on Thor and Avengers did, I can still like the story itself even if I don't see it being a faithful representation of the world previous to his work (In the same way I can love both the worldbuilding and the script of Al Ewing's recent Immortal Thor stories).

So, at least for me it has nothing to do with power scaling, but the worldview and background the series is having and the retcons I don't see as being good for the series. Like, I dislike the way they arranged the stories of the classic as back-to-back stories, greatly reduced the time Tails took to met with Sonic, or even the fact that Tails had adventures before meeting Sonic or that Sonic and Eggman had a long history of fights dating far back to the first game.

In the same way, the Special Stages were always a part of the story, it was constantly mentioned in the story that it was the reason it was hard to get Chaos Emeralds, but now for some reason, the Special Stages are a game mechanic alongside Rings. Of course, a lot of the changes aren't just caused by Ian, like the infamous "The Master Emerald can't do anything, Knuckles is just protecting a big old rock" wasn't his idea, and I dislike it as well.
Click to expand...
They're just saying shit now lmao
Stuff that contradicts what they produced.
 
Shadow needs to honestly get more spotlight for his unique powers. Especially the power increase from removing his inhibitor rings.

Haven't seen him remove them since 06.
 
Eseseso said:
Shadow needs to honestly get more spotlight for his unique powers. Especially the power increase from removing his inhibitor rings.

Haven't seen him remove them since 06.
Click to expand...
Well with what was introduced in issue 59 of the IDW comic, Shadow can't even use crap like Chaos Blast and Chaos Control without having a Chaos Emerald or something equivalent like Eggman's Fake Emeralds.

Which I thought was a stupid decision to make considering Shadow's DNA and tissue are made of Chaos Energy, so he should be able to do those moves without an Emerald and only need them if he wants to increase the potency and range of his Chaos abilties.
 
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