Something something hardwork vs cheating, Ikki vs Han

[Overlord775]

@Fire

Ikki is sub-relativistic, while Han is Massivelly Hypersonic+, so he the the time needed to just amp himself

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Meh whatever. Close this.

 

[Rocker1189]

just one tosay one thing, the death manip he resisted isnt it more like biological manip? He did not survive a literal death manipulation he just started his heart again.

Also I vote Han for reasons above if this is not a stomp.

 

[Huesito88]

He didn't resist it, it still affected him he just restarted his heart.

 

[Sdanand]

just one tosay one thing, the death manip he resisted isnt it more like biological manip? He did not survive a literal death manipulation he just started his heart again.

Also I vote Han for reasons above if this is not a stomp.

Amane's power works in whatever convenient way that it wants. Amane wished for Ikki to die, so Nameless Glory just decided that the easiest way for that to happen would be to stop Ikki's heart. Ikki in turn, just restarted his heart manually.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yes, but Ikki didn't resist death manip.

 

[Moritzva]

Really seems like a lot of Ikki's intelligence feats are simply just PIS incarnate. Like, the writer thought "How can I make this character as cool and skillful as possible?"

Also, it kinda seems like Han stomps here.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Ikki is getting a new profile, so we'll see that.

And it's going to be more PIS ridden.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Really seems like a lot of Ikki's intelligence feats are simply just PIS incarnate.
Like, the writer thought "How can I make this character as cool and skillful as possible?"

Well...precisely, that is the idea of Ikki. What if i have a character who has the weakest talents but works harder than anyone else to the point where he can beat talent with skill? Doesn't mean he's PIS, PIS is to have literal stupidity on the opposing characters or have inexplained things that just happen in his favor. Ikki's the absolute opposite, every character he fights goes at full power (even edelweiss who was holding back was convinced to go full power), let alone wins being explained, every action and attack anyone makes is explained in full detail, and nothing happens in Ikki's favor. He has a Luck Criterria of F, everything happens against him.

There is no PIS. I'm believing to think no one here even knows what PIS means. Is he created to be the absolute in terms of skill? Definitely, that is the point of his whole character, his whole concept was "Talent vs Skill". Ikki was created to embody the skill in verse which beats any talent.

Are the wins and things he does PIS? No, that's like calling Tsubame Gaeshi PIS, or calling Juuzou's concept cutting PIS. Everything he does is raw skill and by that i mean it's explained much better than the previous examples, rather than "i trained hard and got it". The plot revolves around this skilled guy overcoming everything he's put up against, like a Goku of some sorts, but rather than getting stronger it's him using the "Art of War (The weak is allowed to win through any means possible)" to win through techniques, trickery to outskill his opponents.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Him beating his clones while they are immensely stronger and hand waving it away with "he knows his weaknesses" when they do, too, is absolutely PIS. There is no going around the fact that the author makes a lot of dumb shit up for him.

Plot Induced Stupidity is when a character can do ridiculous and illogical things for the sake of the narrative. That fits what Ikki does with his clones, ridiculous extent at skill, re-starting his own heart at will, etc. perfectly. Plot Contrivances fall under it too when that extreme.

Yes, but the author bends logic to an insane degree for that. Again, the whole clones thing as an exemple.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's the idea boi. He knows what they will do, can do, can deal with and cannot deal with. Need i remind you that ikki's precog is good enough to know everything about an opponent (thoughts, emotions, attacks etc) and be 100 steps ahead at all times? He can do that to people he doesn't know as good as himself, try applying the same concept on onesself how many moves do you think he can predict? Precisely because the thought process wasn't the same, he could abuse all of these and win (and he could still 1 shot btw) by killing 2 right off the bat (abused the summoning time), then killing the other 2 with the strength and weaknesses i said above. It wasn't just "he did it" he could do it for reasons that were explained.

"Restarting your own heart" that is actually not a big body control feat of ikki. Dude we have dudes who can cut concepts cus they trained hard enough, people who can attack from 3 different universes by using skill. And you're calling something that is literally easy for someone with Ikki's level of body control "PIS". Whatever floats your boat m8.

He bends the logic, ok...so? Literally every fictional verse bends logic, you don't break a mountain before crushing someone's skull, yet it happens. Ikki's skill breaks "logic" but that's just because it's fiction. Ikki having a lot of skill is not PIS cus "it's too good to be true so it's PIS". I already told you why the clones aren't PIS, there isn't a single person who has read rakudai and calls anything about Ikki "PIS" i wonder why.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I know, no one questioned it and there was no need to explain it. I am making a profile for a thing equally as bullshit (Can predict everything that will happen in the next few hundred years, down to the cause of death of every human being and the time it'll happen precise to the decimals of seconds). It still bullshit made for the narrative, and the reasons are equally bullshit. It's not an attack on his character, but he is pis.

Yes, but compared to the norm in-verse it is ridicolous that he can just do that, as ridicolous that the probability manip couldn't just go more extreme to keep him dead.

So it's PIS. And yes, that is literally what I said, it just so happens that this does it to an extreme. An AI with several multiverses worth of computers predicting every persons actions for a few centuries ahead is much more believable then what Ikki does, and will not break immersion anywhere near as fast. I've read some of it but it didn't catch my interest, but I can tell you that the plot does bend in his favor to an extent.


Literally none of what your saying counters anything I said... Nor does it really add anything to it. The plot makes it so that Ikki overcomes everything for the narrative of the plot. That's it, and it gets really dumb sometimes.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's just fictionally high skill level boi. It's not PIS. Being impossible by normal means doesn't mean it's impossible in fiction, let's call hax and AP PIS too. It is stupidly high skill level, not "the plot favouring him" he can do all of that he doesn't get saved cus "lol plot" he gets saved by his own skill which is just stupidly high cus he trained hard. The plot never bent in his favour cus it's not giving him shit outta the blue, he could always do all of that, due to being skilled, so other that "creating" the character the plot was never present.

Yes because everyone besides him has some form of talent and just cus it's not "in norm" doesn't mean its PIS. Obviously it's not the usual norm, otherwise it would be skill vs skill and talent. But characters like Edelweiss can theoretically do the same heart restarting technique. And characters like Shizuku Kurogane has so much magic skill that while the best Stella Vermillio (a prodigy that is said to appear only once in 30 years) can do is bring out a lot of fire, Shizuku can reform her body on a celular level to completely change what the body is made of. While in terms of swordsmanship no one other than Edelweiss can match him (yes edelweiss can match him in skill), there are a lot of others who can do rather good feats of their own like Dandallion, Shizuku, hell even Ouma Kurogane has stupid feats though mostly related to evolution rather than skill. And beating probability is just him having really good muscle memory, notice how if you're too good at a certain game, you don't need to think, but rather your body just does stuff on it's own? Yeah, ikki's level of muscle memory is the same thing, even if he messes up it'll just autocorrect itself due to the very good muscle memory, same for slipping, missing, and everything the probability was making him do.

Yes the AI is believable, why would it not be? Breaking immersion doesn't mean "lol PIS", it just means the reader cannot fully relate, but that's subjective. "The plots bends to his favor" care to mention a few cases?

"The plot makes ikki overcome everything for the sake of the plot". I mean technically, every AP, hax, skill, mechanics, story, characters everything is technically plot, so pre-stated skill overcoming a character is technically plot overcoming the character right? Dude drop it, it's becoming cyclic at this point. You are calling something "PIS" with nothing to back it up other than "it's too good". Yeah it's too good, doesn't mean "the plot is going in his favour" but when the story was created for plot reasons he was chosen to have really good skill, same as how characters were chosen to be really durable, really strong, really haxy etc. The plot decided all of that when the show started, that doesn't mean PIS though.

 

[RatherClueless]

Bs amounts of skill =/= PIS

One is almost a compliment, the other one is invalidating anything he did.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I can understand if you say ''certain'' feats are PiS I disagree with the notion that "everything Ikki overcomes is PIS" because that's false.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I didn't say either of those. Saying that everything he overcomes is PIS is false, obviously.

But certain things have an explaination that simply isn't logical and only happened to keep the narrative going.

 

[Sdanand]

┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬» Sara Bloodlily actually made four copies of Ikki but the narration itself says that "These half-hearted copies were no match even with four of them attacking in unison, no matter how exact their reproduction."

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Bs amounts of skill =/= PIS
One is almost a compliment, the other one is invalidating anything he did.

^^

I love how you said "almost a compliment".