Han Jee-Han vs Iihiko Shishime (Strongest 3D non-smurf tournament Match 2)

[DontTalkDT]

Han Jee-Han vs Iihiko Shishime


Speed Equal
High 7-A Han
8-B Iihiko
SBA otherwise

Han contests for the strongest High 7-A spot and Iihiko represents Medaka Box for the strongest 8-B spot.
Who wins?

Spoiler: Tournament Details

A little unconventional tournament I wanted to try for a while. We'll see if it goes anywhere or if nobody cares.

The goal is to figure out who the strongest 3-D non-smurf character is in a speed equal setting via a tournament. For that purpose the contestants are the current the #1 spots of the top 5 non-smurf list (I will not change contestants during the tourney if those change). If a verse holds a spot I picked a representative from those listed at random. If speed equal/speed unequal shared a spot I picked speed equal.

Each character participates in the key in which they hold their #1 spot and if a character holds multiple tiers' #1 spot, it participates in the highest tier key.

The bracket can be found here. As you see we have a looser round to give those that got bad matchups a second chance.

Prior Match

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

... Oh god, my head hurts.

Does anybody have any idea on how Iihiko's bullshit would affect Han's Gamer Bullshit?

 

[Zaratthustra]

Iihiko's strongest thing would be him not recognizing the attacks thus not affecting him but Han has a lot of hax and higher Ap so idk truly how it would work.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Han has lots of tools and due to his big speed boosts he should have the opportunity to go through all of them.

I wonder if perception-based madness hax would work as Iihiko does perceive it?

 

[DontTalkDT]

bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

bump

 

[Rozi]

Han can win easily, And just need to stop time

 

[Zaratthustra]

His ability isn't NLF.

• Omni-Weapon Proficiency just means he doesn't need any particular weapon to attack.
• Subjective Immunity doesn't work on abilities that resist power-null, that are linguistic-based, are higher-dimensional, or otherwise have reason to not be nullified.
• Irreversible Destruction doesn't work on healing via rewinding time, on healing that resists power null, or on mid-godly or above regen.
• Supernatural Luck doesn't work on characters with superior luck, nor does it work on characters with sufficiently good power null/resistance.
• Possession only works if a backup is prepared.

For reference to Ajimu, we use Ajimu's durability, and the skills we know the functionality of. Skills with one-line names and descriptions are ignored (as these are the only ones that are indexed).

Said by Agnaa in an old thread regarding Ilhiko and his power.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So would something like visual madness fall into a similar category as linguistic abilities? IIRC the point was that the attack essentially has to make iihiko understand its effect, which with visual madness would probably be the case.

Although many of Han's abilities could also not be nullified by baseline stuff IIRC. His Gamer abilities at the very least.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Sincerely not sure, it would need for him to "recognize" it as an attack to work on him. Another guy in the past (on wiki not manga) defeated him by creating an attack so big that's impossible to not recognize it as a danger (but this was a hand that was larger than our planet) while at the same time in manga it was said that even something that will destroy the earth will not make him recognize it. He even didn't recognize Kumogawa's All Fiction if I remember right and that one manipulates causality. Have read it a long time ago, and his ability I always find hard to gauge sincerely.

While for The Gamer, I barely read 50-60 chapters years ago, so I can't really debate for him.

Agnaa would be the most knowledgeable on Medaka I would say while for The Gamer is Ricsi-viragosi.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Said by Agnaa in an old thread regarding Ilhiko and his power.

Oh, Han should do fine then, he can resist his spells being nullified.

Depending on what "linguistic skills" mean, he may be able to use those as well.


Han could also, like, grab him and drop him off in a pocket dimension (if that can work), in space (if pushing him through portals work), or just throw him out to the the sea (if grabbing him while billions of times faster works). In either of those three cases, he could also put an untiring golem to just keep stalling the man until he wins by BFR.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah, knowing Medaka Box, I don't think Iihiko's stuff would prevent him from going through a portal.
So I would say Han FRA.

 

[DontTalkDT]

bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

I was asked to do the Greeza vs DS match early, so Match 3 is up already.

 

[Dragonite007]

Han FRA

 

[Dragonite007]

Bump

 

[Agnaa]

Does Han have a good way to deal with Iihiko's luck?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

His own luck was high enough that he could defeat Yeonghwan Cho, whose whole deal is being supernaturally lucky. Cho managed to escape alive after trying to kill Han, but he had an arm blown off by him and Jee-Han didn't bother trying to track him down after he retreated. He himself has a luck of 100, as opposed to the average man's 10.

 

[Agnaa]

Eh, feels like Iihiko would end up scaling to better luck.

Medaka passed a door which randomly generated a code out of a million possible digits, and forced the next code to be her friend's birthday so that character without supernatural luck could pass it as well; in fact, it did so twice (something with a 1 in quintillion chance of happening). Another character said that she could pull off 1 in a million odds a million times in a row (so 1 in (10^6)^(10^6)), but that is just a statement.

Main characters in MB, like Iihiko and Medaka, can have the enemy's special attack miss vital areas, have the enemy spare them on a whim, and come up with winning strategies in a pinch. Although, they can still lose if the stakes are low enough.

There haven't been any objective demonstrations of this on Iihiko's part. All we have is scaling and speculation (he happened to accidentally land on, instakilling, the character who had the best shot at killing him, but we're never told that this is due to his luck).

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I mean, I don't really see how luck would really stack up to someone just being billions of times faster than you.

 

[DontTalkDT]

There's also the causality manip precog that could help.

 

[Agnaa]

Billions of times faster

Precog

Well, it also made a nigh-omniscient 3-A that could power null every single one of Medaka's abilities except for that luck believe that she'd be unable to win, and that the best course of action was to just never fight her.

And still, some of the bits of luck I mentioned were about changing the opponent's mindset. As a passive, it should still function on someone billions of times faster.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

And still, some of the bits of luck I mentioned were about changing the opponent's mindset.

That should still fall under Gamer's Mind.

As a passive, it should still function on someone billions of times faster.

That's not really true for all passives, something being passive doesn't mean it performs its effects immediatly, it simply means the character doesn't activate it. Someone always releasing fire from their body would be passive, but the fire should still need to travel to them.
I do think luck should work, I'm just saying that it being passive isn't the reason.

Anyways, why wouldn't bfr work due to the passive? Or, Han just outlasting Iihiko, "inhuman" stamina doesn't really beat regenerating stamina faster than you can use it, nor does the dude have self-sustenance.

Well, it also made a nigh-omniscient 3-A that could power null every single one of Medaka's abilities except for that luck believe that she'd be unable to win, and that the best course of action was to just never fight her.

I don't know about using "observing the creation of the universe" to scale for tier at all, and she's rated Unknown as is. That, plus luck at that point is causality manipulation, her own skill in the field being simply some Gae Bolg deal, and her resistance being only partial (and I wouldn't really call All Fiction causality manipulation anyways), I don't know if she fares against luck better than Han being able to neglect cause and effect altogether for his powers to work.

 

[Agnaa]

That should still fall under Gamer's Mind.

Yeah okay.

Anyways, why wouldn't bfr work due to the passive?

"Never loses when it matters", "Manifests 1 in quadrillion to 1 in 10^6^10^6 chances when entering a room", "Manifests ludicrous odds when rolling dice or playing cards", "Makes the opponents' attacks miss vital areas" sounds diverse enough to have a good chance of working against BFR.

Also, Iihiko nulled all of Ajimu's skills, including one that is clearly shown as BFR. If Han's BFR is close enough to a superpower, it could be covered by that, or hell, it could be covered regardless as something he's seen before and not recognized.

When Fukurou was considering ways to beat Iihiko using styles (which bypass his Subjective Immunity) he still dismissed sealing him into a card, which was shown to keep Ajimu in a sort of realm inside it, as he'd just escape sooner or later. So that's three ways of getting around it.

Throwing into the sea doesn't seem particularly useful given Iihiko's pretty solid travel speed, unless we assume that his swimming speed is hundreds of thousands of times slower.

Or, Han just outlasting Iihiko, "inhuman" stamina doesn't really beat regenerating stamina faster than you can use it, nor does the dude have self-sustenance.

Funny you bring that up; Iihiko's irreversible destruction works on the stamina opponents use within his vicinity; it never recovers.

I don't know about using "observing the creation of the universe" to scale for tier at all, and she's rated Unknown as is.

She's not rated at "Unknown", she's rated at "Unknown, likely 3-A, possibly far higher". We usually take characters at their highest for these sorts of matches. Since "far higher" is unquantifiable, we'd be going under the on-profile interpretation of her having 3-A AP.

That, plus luck at that point is causality manipulation

This does not make sense to me.

and I wouldn't really call All Fiction causality manipulation anyways

Mate, All Fiction is textbook causality manip. So much that it's one of the examples on the page. It's repeatedly described in terms of causality.

I don't know if she fares against luck better than Han being able to neglect cause and effect altogether for his powers to work

Ajimu does not have resistance to luck.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Funny you bring that up; Iihiko's irreversible destruction works on the stamina opponents use within his vicinity; it never recovers.

That's directly trying to negate a game mechanic of Han's, which resist power nullification pretty hard.

Mate, All Fiction is textbook causality manip. So much that it's one of the examples on the page. It's repeatedly described in terms of causality.

What you linked literally states that rather than reversing cause and effect, All Fiction simply makes it so that "cause and effect didn't happen". He is erasing both, that's manipulating causality in the same vein as erasing someone in body and soul would be Soul Manipulation. Like, sure, you can list that ability, but someone resisting that isn't analogous with resisting somebody altering their souls, or moving it around.

Ajimu does not have resistance to luck.

Which, at that point, if fate/causality manipulation.

Throwing into the sea doesn't seem particularly useful given Iihiko's pretty solid travel speed, unless we assume that his swimming speed is hundreds of thousands of times slower.

Han can fly to outer space in a few seconds even without any speed amps.

 

[Agnaa]

That's directly trying to negate a game mechanic of Han's, which resist power nullification pretty hard.

It's not directly negating a power, it's stopping the effect from working. Irreversible Destruction doesn't stop healing by nullifying the abilities, it stops it by applying damage that can't be healed. It works on the effect, not the mechanism.

Which, at that point, if fate/causality manipulation.

I disagree. Luck doesn't become fate manip once it gets better than 10^9 odds. It's still just luck. They can have similar effects, but so can a whole lot of abilities.

Han can fly to outer space in a few seconds even without any speed amps.

This is irrelevant to the reason I was bringing it up.

You said that Iihiko could get BFR'd, and one of the ideas you provided, was chucking him into the sea.

I'm pointing out that he could come back from that in less than 7 days, to not be considered BFR'd.

Han being faster does not change this.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

not directly negating a power, it's stopping the effect from working

...The difference being..?

His powers state that he recovers x% per second. Iihiko's powers negate that.

it stops it by applying damage that can't be healed.

But it doesn't, he won't get to even lay a hand on Han. His presence would stop him from recovering stamina he himself used, which goes against his power.

Luck doesn't become fate manip once it gets better than 10^9 odds. It's still just luck.

If you want to claim that, then...

Iihiko has 0% chance of winning. Plain.

Unless you can actually explain to me the events that would lead to Iihiko not losing rather than pointing to other characters he didn't lose against, his chance is zero.

This is irrelevant to the reason I was bringing it up.

You said that Iihiko could get BFR'd, and one of the ideas you provided, was chucking him into the sea.

I'm pointing out that he could come back from that in less than 7 days, to not be considered BFR'd.

Han being faster does not change this.

I brought up chucking him into space as well, though. So, would that work or not?

 

[Agnaa]

...The difference being..?

His powers state that he recovers x% per second. Iihiko's powers negate that.

But it doesn't, he won't get to even lay a hand on Han. His presence would stop him from recovering stamina he himself used, which goes against his power.

It's the difference between not being affected by fire manipulation because you have an anti-magic aura, and not being affected by fire manipulation because you absorb fire.

It works on the effect of the ability, rather than the ability itself.

If you want to claim that, then...

Iihiko has 0% chance of winning. Plain.

Unless you can actually explain to me the events that would lead to Iihiko not losing rather than pointing to other characters he didn't lose against, his chance is zero.

Being able to make your opponents' attacks miss doesn't turn your luck into fate/causality manip.

I brought up chucking him into space as well, though. So, would that work or not?

Yeah probably.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It works on the effect of the ability, rather than the ability itself.

The ability is regeneration. He is negating the regeneration.

Being able to make your opponents' attacks miss doesn't turn your luck into fate/causality manip.

It does if it is physically impossible for them to miss. If you're going to look me in the eye and tell me the luck allows an unpowered individual to defeat a 3-A individual with a billion superpowers, you can't expect me to believe there was any chance of surivior.

Regardless, my point was made.
I don't believe Iihiko has any percentage chance at all to win. Unless you can provide me with a scenario otherwise, I won't believe it either.

 

[Agnaa]

The ability is regeneration. He is negating the regeneration.

Not in any sense that we consider generic power nullification.

It does if it is physically impossible for them to miss.

Our Probability Manipulation includes this:

At a high level, it can be used to make things that would be completely impossible otherwise certainties.

We consider making the impossible possible to still be probability manipulation. Your insistence that it automatically becomes causality/fate is unfounded in site standards.

Unless you can provide me with a scenario otherwise, I won't believe it either.

Iihiko throws a rubber band, bisecting Han in a way that can't be recovered with Low-Godly healing/regen/resurrection.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

We consider making the impossible possible to still be probability manipulation. Your insistence that it automatically becomes causality/fate is unfounded in site standards.

Yes, but making something with 0% chance happen regardless, is making an effect lacking in cause still happen. That's like saying that reality warping can alter causality, but that doesn't make it causality manipulation.

In-fact, there are several pages that consider making the literal impossible possible fate manipulation, even if done through luck, like Type Moon profiles... and The Gamer.

In The Gamer, luck that can make the impossible possible is considered causality manipulation, and it still falls under Han's skills' curfew regardless. Arguing semantics isn't valid - if the skill does x, and Han resists x, then it doesn't matter what label you put on it, it is still x.

Not in any sense that we consider generic power nullification.

Please, explain to me how? Han has regeneration, it is enforced by causality warping that can negate other powers that would impede that from functioning it. How does this not fall under that?

Iihiko throws a rubber band, bisecting Han in a way that can't be recovered with Low-Godly healing/regen/resurrection.

How can you say that and argue that's not causality manipulation is beyond me, but regardless, he himself warps causality to make that not happen.

 

[Agnaa]

Yes, but making something with 0% chance happen regardless, is making an effect lacking in cause still happen. That's like saying that reality warping can alter causality, but that doesn't make it causality manipulation.

What are you talking about? It has clearly defined a clearly defined cause in the ability itself.

If a character who normally can't fly gains an ability that lets them fly, that is not causality manipulation. It is also not causality manipulation if they're described as flying because of luck.

In The Gamer, luck that can make the impossible possible is considered causality manipulation, and it still falls under Han's skills' curfew regardless. Arguing semantics isn't valid - if the skill does x, and Han resists x, then it doesn't matter what label you put on it, it is still x.

Why didn't you just say that earlier?

If Han has better feats against luck, argue that! Post examples and scans! Don't go through this roundabout nonsense.

Please, explain to me how? Han has regeneration, it is enforced by causality warping that can negate other powers that would impede that from functioning it. How does this not fall under that?

Well now that you've brought that up, it depends on what "enforced by causality warping" means. What exact sorts of things it can prevent.

How can you say that and argue that's not causality manipulation is beyond me, but regardless, he himself warps causality to make that not happen.

Before I get into how Iihiko's Subjective Immunity interacts with this, would you be able to post an example of Han using causality warping to avoid an attack? And also explain whether this sort of thing is passive or activated?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It is also not causality manipulation if they're described as flying because of luck.

I disagree. Probability and causality are innately tied together, if somebody warps probability to the extent of making something impossible possible, they are forcing an effect to take place without, and often despite, cause.

If Han has better feats against luck, argue that! Post examples and scans! Don't go through this roundabout nonsense.

As I said above, he can ignore luck that warps causality to make impossible events possible.

it depends on what "enforced by causality warping" means.

Han Jee-Han's skills function by altering causality and the laws of reality to gain an effect without needing the cause or process to take place. All damage done to his body is rendered into HP loss, making any deformation to his body simply disappear and be subtracted from his HP, be it simple blunt force or standing inside of a Void that erases space-time (and is confirmed to erase souls as well). Some of his other stuff is listed as directly benefiting from this reality warping - his healing removing any status effects, be they selling your soul, missing limbs, mental manipulation, etc. (but it cannot heal someone who is, effectively, allergic to themselves - only treat the sympthoms).

an example of Han using causality warping to avoid an attack?

Not to avoid it, but to avoid his body being affected. His Gamer's Body, as said above, does this. He wouldn't get ripped in two, he'd just lose HP - but he is immortal so going to 0 HP doesn't matter to him, anyways.

And also explain whether this sort of thing is passive or activated?

Gamer's Body and Mind are passive, his healing is active.

 

[Agnaa]

As I said above, he can ignore luck that warps causality to make impossible events possible.

I can't find this on the profile, could you post a scan of it?

Han Jee-Han's skills function by altering causality and the laws of reality to gain an effect without needing the cause or process to take place. All damage done to his body is rendered into HP loss, making any deformation to his body simply disappear and be subtracted from his HP, be it simple blunt force or standing inside of a Void that erases space-time (and is confirmed to erase souls as well). Some of his other stuff is listed as directly benefiting from this reality warping - his healing removing any status effects, be they selling your soul, missing limbs, mental manipulation, etc. (but it cannot heal someone who is, effectively, allergic to themselves - only treat the sympthoms).

This is not at all how it's described on the profile. Could you post a scan of this?

Not to avoid it, but to avoid his body being affected. His Gamer's Body, as said above, does this. He wouldn't get ripped in two, he'd just lose HP - but he is immortal so going to 0 HP doesn't matter to him, anyways.

His profile lists types 1, 3, and 8. Type 1 is irrelevant here. Type 3 is only Low-Godly regen, which Iihiko can nullify. Type 8 is unexplained.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It's Yeonhwa Cho, whose luck warps the principle of causality. I'll go get the scan in a bit, working on something rn.

 

[Agnaa]

Hm, Yeon's profile doesn't have much on it, so ig I'll just wait for scans.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Managed to quickly grab some scans (quality isn't the best, as you can't copy images from Webtoon, so I had to screencap them).

For luck, it's stated high luck warps destiny/causality (the witch equating the two). Later, causality manipulation is also compared to law manipulation by Rasputin (mind techniques warp laws to function, creating things like an "undodgeable hit", "absolute block", "cut/freeze anything", etc.
I can go get a link if you want a source on that as well).

Han's own powers disregard causality in all aspects, and Han gives some examples.

 

[Agnaa]

From those it feels like you kinda have to reach a bit to get stuff comparable to Iihiko's luck in function.

A character has luck that "controls/disregards causality", and it's compared to a bunch of abilities, which have functions comparable to what Medaka has. While Iihiko gets it because he just has that same ability of being the main character.

And the actual substantive things listed for Han seem much less impressive. He can skip over the healing process, he can manufacture things without going through the process for it, he doesn't take as long to cast spells, and his body doesn't directly get damaged so he can fight without injuries hampering him. It sounds like you're taking flowery language far beyond what it's actually used for, at least in those scans. I can imagine someone describing an ability that creates a manufactured item out of thin air as "removing the processes need for making something", but you presented that as "he can gain effects without needing the cause or process to take place".

Plus you haven't yet provided scans for "Han can ignore luck that warps causality to make impossible events possible".

Also, I'm a bit curious now; why does he have Low-Godly regen if his body never gets damaged in the first place? Because if his body does get damaged and he just heals it with low-godly, converting it to HP damage, well, Iihiko can null Low-Godly regen.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

And the actual substantive things listed for Han seem much less impressive. He can skip over the healing process, he can manufacture things without going through the process for it, he doesn't take as long to cast spells, and his body doesn't directly get damaged so he can fight without injuries hampering him. It sounds like you're taking flowery language far beyond what it's actually used for, at least in those scans. I can imagine someone describing an ability that creates a manufactured item out of thin air as "removing the processes need for making something", but you presented that as "he can gain effects without needing the cause or process to take place".

Him skipping over the healing process lets him "heal" things like having sold your soul to the devil, any magic oath or restriction in general, mental afflictions (be they magical or mundane), or anything his powers consider a status effect, which is what makes it impressive.

The manufacturing is impressive because, for one, creating matter from nothing is against fundamental laws that still exist in The Gamer, and for another, he can will stuff that grants a 600% boosts into being.

Being able to cast spells non-verbally is a pretty big upgrade compared to having to actually say incantations.

And as I mentioned above, the ability to ignore damage to his body includes being in an all-erasing void.


And, I don't think you can claim its flowery language when this includes destiny warping luck, and is superior to abilities that warp the laws of reality to do stuff like "always hit" or "freeze anything".

Plus you haven't yet provided scans for "Han can ignore luck that warps causality to make impossible events possible".

His own luck does that when this is stated (season 4, at 100 luck) and he casually overwhelmed and blew the arm of a dude with 400 luck off in season 2, when his luck was still in the average human levels.

Also, I'm a bit curious now; why does he have Low-Godly regen if his body never gets damaged in the first place? Because if his body does get damaged and he just heals it with low-godly, converting it to HP damage, well, Iihiko can null Low-Godly regen.

On top of Gamer's Body, he has his soul placed into, and made indestructible, by Dan's Sword, a Korean artifact. So long as that soul exists, the wielder's body will be recovered no-matter what happens, this being compared to Chinese Immortals whose souls can grow new bodies after being destroyed.

And he resists power null, both his Gamer's Body (even when a Dragon God sealed all of his powers, his Gamer powers were left on) and Sword of Dan (it is considered absolutely impossible to overcome in the verse, whereas individuals like the aforementioned Chinese immortals can still be killed)

 

[Agnaa]

Getting late so I won't respond to much.

His own luck does that when this is stated (season 4, at 100 luck) and he casually overwhelmed and blew the arm of a dude with 400 luck off in season 2, when his luck was still in the average human levels.

idk if that alone is sufficient. A good abnormal's luck is almost entirely unaffected by an ability that makes nothing stray from its usual chances (instead of getting a perfect hand with all 7 cards being hearts, he got a perfect hand with 6 hearts and 1 diamond). Medaka and Iihiko have luck vastly superior to that.

But given these descriptions, I could imagine Han having better feats that would surpass that and have him easily win.