Touhou Spirit Manipulation: Regeneration Downgrade

[Eseseso]

The Spirit Manipulation page for 2Hou Project has this:

Soul Regeneration (Mid-Godly): Spirit can be regenerated in a matter of seconds.

Multiple issues with this:

1. We don't see any healing on display in the scan, just her energy bar reloading. There are a bunch of franchises where one's energy comes from the soul yet we don't give them soul regen for recovering their energy bar.

2. For Mid-Godly regeneration, the listed requirement is:

The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of one's body, mind, and soul.

Even if the above qualified for soul regen (which it really doesn't due to reason #1), it's not mid godly regen due to not including destruction of the mind and body. Same reason we don't give Power of Hope Kratos mid-godly for his soul regenerating from being destroyed by Fear Zeus.

So yeah, yeet this off the page asap.

 

[Shiraito983]

agree for now

 

[Planck69]

Unless there's another justification entirely, then yeah, this should be removed.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Responding soon.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

I think relying on the scan alone as justification is weak and should be addressed. I agree with that much.

While it does objectively show that characters can recover spiritual energy mid-combat, it’s a poor explanation for actual Regeneration. A much stronger example comes from Scarlet Weather Rhapsody:

1. Throughout the game's story, all characters notice a scarlet mist or something otherwise spirit-like emanating from their body. And the game's premise is to find out why.
   
   
2. Later we learn that the source of this mist is revealed to be the temperament not just phantoms, but of all living things.
   
   
3. The cause of everyone's temperament being absorbed is because of Tenshi. She is transmuting their spirits into scarlet mist before absorbing it with The Sword of Hisou. This also caused the concentration of spiritual energy/temperament in the air to reach 100x what it is normally, which is also attributed to Tenshi absorbing said temperament.
   
   
4. The absorbing effect is confirmed to be a form of Soul Absorption in routes which show phantoms disappearing from the afterlife in Komachi's route. Komachi herself is also credible, as she is the Shinigami that ferries the souls of phantoms across the River Styx (i.e, the Sanzu River), who's job is to handle said souls.
   
   
5. Tenshi causing the deaths of phantoms in this game is called back to in later material, saying they “disappeared”, which is referencing Scarlet Weather Rhapsody.
   
   
6. Here is a compilation of scans that talk about both temperament in relation to spirit and chi. Notably, temperament = phantoms is made explicit, and Sakuya equates what she refers to as "chi" emanating from the body with phantoms outright. As the Spirit page outlines, this corroborates temperament = chi = phantoms. The distinction lies in how different characters recognize the same energy: it amounts to fundamentally different perspectives on it.
   
   Tangentially speaking, Touhou characters draw from a mix of mythologies; primarily Japanese and Chinese. ZUN does this very deliberately with characters serving as stand-ins from both traditions (such as mythological gods and even religious figures from different cultures) who use different terminology to refer to the same underlying concepts.

In other words, Tenshi transmutes and absorbs every character’s spirit before cutting it apart so thoroughly that it is stated to have disappeared. There is no explanation as to how characters are able to survive this or later regain their spiritual energy during the Scarlet Weather incident, nor is it implied that it was given back to them by some outside source; Occam’s Razor suggests that they simply regenerated it. This is consistent with how spiritual beings such as phantoms and youkai can reform from being blown to smithereens, being erased and needing to come back as a “completely new individual”, or vanishing entirely.

As an aside, full mid-godly was never pushed for. We have always interpreted this feat as recovering spiritual energy and spiritual energy alone; The fact that it’s listed as mid-godly can be attributed to the lack of concrete standards on regenerating one’s soul independent of their body. Fully spiritual beings (Phantoms, Youkai, etc), would get full mid-godly from this and the other aforementioned feats, however, since they have no physical body to regenerate in the first place.

 

[Eseseso]

I think relying on the scan alone as justification is weak and should be addressed. I agree with that much.

While it does objectively show that characters can recover spiritual energy mid-combat, it’s a poor explanation for actual Regeneration. A much stronger example comes from Scarlet Weather Rhapsody:

1. Throughout the game's story, all characters notice a scarlet mist or something otherwise spirit-like emanating from their body. And the game's premise is to find out why.
   
   
2. Later we learn that the source of this mist is revealed to be the temperament not just phantoms, but of all living things.
   
   
3. The cause of everyone's temperament being absorbed is because of Tenshi. She is transmuting their spirits into scarlet mist before absorbing it with The Sword of Hisou. This also caused the concentration of spiritual energy/temperament in the air to reach 100x what it is normally, which is also attributed to Tenshi absorbing said temperament.
   
   
4. The absorbing effect is confirmed to be a form of Soul Absorption in routes which show phantoms disappearing from the afterlife in Komachi's route. Komachi herself is also credible, as she is the Shinigami that ferries the souls of phantoms across the River Styx (i.e, the Sanzu River), who's job is to handle said souls.
   
   
5. Tenshi causing the deaths of phantoms in this game is called back to in later material, saying they “disappeared”, which is referencing Scarlet Weather Rhapsody.
   
   
6. Here is a compilation of scans that talk about both temperament in relation to spirit and chi. Notably, temperament = phantoms is made explicit, and Sakuya equates what she refers to as "chi" emanating from the body with phantoms outright. As the Spirit page outlines, this corroborates temperament = chi = phantoms. The distinction lies in how different characters recognize the same energy: it amounts to fundamentally different perspectives on it.
   
   Tangentially speaking, Touhou characters draw from a mix of mythologies; primarily Japanese and Chinese. ZUN does this very deliberately with characters serving as stand-ins from both traditions (such as mythological gods and even religious figures from different cultures) who use different terminology to refer to the same underlying concepts.

In other words, Tenshi transmutes and absorbs every character’s spirit before cutting it apart so thoroughly that it is stated to have disappeared. There is no explanation as to how characters are able to survive this or later regain their spiritual energy during the Scarlet Weather incident, nor is it implied that it was given back to them by some outside source; Occam’s Razor suggests that they simply regenerated it. This is consistent with how spiritual beings such as phantoms and youkai can reform from being blown to smithereens, being erased and needing to come back as a “completely new individual”, or vanishing entirely.

As an aside, full mid-godly was never pushed for. We have always interpreted this feat as recovering spiritual energy and spiritual energy alone; The fact that it’s listed as mid-godly can be attributed to the lack of concrete standards on regenerating one’s soul independent of their body. Fully spiritual beings (Phantoms, Youkai, etc), would get full mid-godly from this and the other aforementioned feats, however, since they have no physical body to regenerate in the first place.

Spiritual beings getting mid-godly seems ok (but you should make your own thread for that), but would others just not have any regen?

Unless there's another justification entirely, then yeah, this should be removed.

Thoughts?

 

[Voidnether]

As an aside, full mid-godly was never pushed for. We have always interpreted this feat as recovering spiritual energy and spiritual energy alone; The fact that it’s listed as mid-godly can be attributed to the lack of concrete standards on regenerating one’s soul independent of their body. Fully spiritual beings (Phantoms, Youkai, etc), would get full mid-godly from this and the other aforementioned feats, however, since they have no physical body to regenerate in the first place.

To be fair, I always thought of like something that's only related to the Soul as like Soul Healing/Regeneration as opposed to Soul Destruction/Erasure only but this doesn't cover like what if it was the entire soul being destroyed instead? As far as I understand about Mid-Godly itself, yeah you kinda need Low-Godly too as it's the regeneration of both your body and soul but tbf like I said earlier I'm also curious what would you get if it's the complete destruction/erasure of your soul then you manage to come back as one. Would've appreciated though if there's any staff willing to answer this question, you made a good point there

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Spiritual beings getting mid-godly seems ok (but you should make your own thread for that), but would others just not have any regen?

To put it simply, Humans in the verse can regenerate their spirit (i.e., spiritual energy), but not their bodies as if it were a physical healing factor. For them, it isn’t “healing” at all. This current line "Soul Regeneration (Mid-Godly): Spirit can be regenerated in a matter of seconds." is meant to indicate soul-based energy replenishment, not literal soul-based regeneration.

As I mentioned previously, only spiritual beings achieve full Mid-Godly due to their spiritual physiology, supported by the scans referenced on their profiles. For this reason, I’m fine with removing Mid-Godly from that page, as the scan in question clearly refers to something else. Characters who genuinely qualify for Mid-Godly are already indexed appropriately.

I propose amending the wording to explicitly reflect soul-based energy replenishment. It remains soul-related, but using “regeneration” in the conventional sense creates unnecessary confusion. Hence why we're here. Staff insights to this would be appreciated.

 

[Eseseso]

To put it simply, Humans in the verse can regenerate their spirit (i.e., spiritual energy), but not their bodies as if it were a physical healing factor. For them, it isn’t “healing” at all. This current line "Soul Regeneration (Mid-Godly): Spirit can be regenerated in a matter of seconds." is meant to indicate soul-based energy replenishment, not literal soul-based regeneration.

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As I mentioned previously, only spiritual beings achieve full Mid-Godly due to their spiritual physiology, supported by the scans referenced on their profiles. For this reason, I’m fine with removing Mid-Godly from that page, as the scan in question clearly refers to something else. Characters who genuinely qualify for Mid-Godly are already indexed appropriately.

I propose amending the wording to explicitly reflect soul-based energy replenishment. It remains soul-related, but using “regeneration” in the conventional sense creates unnecessary confusion. Hence why we're here. Staff insights to this would be appreciated.

Getting your energy back isn't really a superpower. We as people get our energy back when it's drained. The ability should be removed and anything for spiritual beings should be in a new separate CRT

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Getting your energy back isn't really a superpower. We as people get our energy back when it's drained.

Care to elaborate on this? I do not follow what you are saying.

 

[Eseseso]

Care to elaborate on this? I do not follow what you are saying.

I didn't word that properly.

Unless something like power null is involved, at most all you could argue for is that characters have quick stamina recovery. Not much of a power other than that, especially since it seems like a bit of a game mechanic too.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

at most all you could argue for is that characters have quick stamina recovery. Not much of a power other than that, especially since it seems like a bit of a game mechanic too.

At most?

It’s not just stamina, it’s explicitly soul-based energy recovery, which is already so fundamentally different from that. If Spirit already goes beyond the physical (and it does in this instance), then rapidly regaining it is a supernatural ability, not just “catching your breath.”

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Basically what Wonder said, just another of those things that is legit but needs better justifications (such as those mentioned in the thread earlier).

We can cook up an edit for that one thing on all the relevant pages now, or we can just wait to roll it into the general revamps on the way anyway. I prefer the latter route since this & many other justifications will be dependent on physiology pages, so it could be ungainly to take the time to stuff a long aside into all the relevant pages. Good to get this scrutinized & strengthened now, in any case, though.

 

[Greatsage13th]

This just needs rewording.

 

[Eseseso]

Basically what Wonder said, just another of those things that is legit but needs better justifications (such as those mentioned in the thread earlier).

We can cook up an edit for that one thing on all the relevant pages now, or we can just wait to roll it into the general revamps on the way anyway. I prefer the latter route since this & many other justifications will be dependent on physiology pages, so it could be ungainly to take the time to stuff a long aside into all the relevant pages. Good to get this scrutinized & strengthened now, in any case, though.

I prefer just removing it until stronger evidence is introduced, like in your upcoming revisions.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Bump.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

No problem with removal, as for adding it back, there can be a separate CRT for that.

 

[Eseseso]

No problem with removal, as for adding it back, there can be a separate CRT for that.

Is 2 staff approvals enough for this to be accepted? It's just removing one ability.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Is 2 staff approvals enough for this to be accepted? It's just removing one ability.

Yeah

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah

Done, this thread can now be closed

 

[Vietthai96]

Done, this thread can now be closed

Closing