Some undertale magical attacks and low tier revisions:

[Andytrenom]

Tentative agree with the rest, though I'm still happier with keeping everyone at Subsonic instead of scaling them all the way up to Supersonic.

Also mate, if nobody's accepted the Subsonic+ value, we'll have to go with my Subsonic value

Well, I think Asgore should still be supersonic based off of his trident attacks. Not only does he scale far above greater dog, that attack itself is distinctly faster than the barks

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Alright. That works

 

[Read_this_post]

I think the same can be applied to undyne to be honest. Her yellow arrows can switch sides distinctively faster than the barks and many of her arrow and i think spear attacks are distinctively faster as well. Mettaton scales above an unarmoured undyne who should have similar speeds.

Do you not feel comfortable giving the likes of papyrus and hotlands monsters transonic only then?

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Ya. Not sure if they scale so far above Greater Dog to go all the way to Transonic. There is an argument for Papyrus, but I have a problem with regular Hotland monsters, who I don't think should scale so far above a member of the Royal Guard

 

[Read_this_post]

It would only be to greater dogs attack itself. But i suppose if the evidence isnt sufficient enough, so you feel more comfortable scaling ever normal monster to subsonic+ then? And what about undyne? Should she be transonic or could she be supersonic?

Also i managed to violently and maybe slightly illegally harass and blackmail dmua into approving my calc. I suppose it can be used?

 

[Buttersamuri]

I'll say. I do thin ashore is faster just being obviously one of the strongest ones. But if we went by how fast asgores attack moved vs how fast the Bart moved. Isn't that spear attack like, leagues faster?

 

[Read_this_post]

What do you mean exactly?

 

[Buttersamuri]

Holy crud, that comment is a mess. Sorry. Might have written that half awake

I'm bringing up. If we compared the attacks speed to each other. Or more specifically, Asgores spear slice, and the bark attack. When Asgore does his spear slicing. Isn't that attack like leagues faster in speed than the bark? It swipes across the entire box in a much faster speeds than the bark does. Meaning Asgores attacks should initially be way faster. Should we compare the two like that.

 

[Read_this_post]

Yeah. Andy did say to me hes fine with comparing attacks which have warnings before them is fine since they are explicitely faster.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Well alright then. This may be a nice buff for the verse For once

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Meanwhile my buffs for the verse never get attention smh

 

[Read_this_post]

If you use direct pixel scaling for the trident. It seems it could reach supersonic+.

@Sean Because its pretty much an exam. No offence. But ill consider it for later.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

The problem with that is that it's almost textbook calc stacking. We can't really take the calculated speed of Frisk and apply it to every attack in the game.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Yea. I thought that might be an issue. But wasn't sure. Though doing it would cause some inconsistencies. Asgore would become undoubtedly faster than Sans. Due his attacks moving much faster.

 

[Read_this_post]

Well, sans wouldnt be undoubtedly slower since frisk could have been much faster when he fought sans and percieved their attacks slower. He wouldnt have been any slower when he fought asgore.

But if scaling attacks in general that arent on screen at once is calc stacking then i suppose supersonic would do.

So are we comfortable with keeping all the hotlands and waterfall monsters at subsonic+? If so, who are all the characters you believe scales to transonic or supersonic and for what reasons? Do you think undyne could scale from the reasoning I think I gave?

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Okay, here's my list for scaling purposes, make of this what you will

Subsonic/Subsonic+
All Ruins, Waterfall, Snowdin, Hotland and True Lab monsters not later mentioned

• Via scaling to Frisk. No combat experience or skill means that they shouldn't scale above our little psychopath

Alphys

• As previous. No combat experience or skill, but should still be able to match the rank and file monsters pace for pace. Was also implied to be able to contend with the Amalgemates

Transonic
The Dogs (not including Annoying Dog)

• Should all scale to Greater Dog via being rank and file members of the Royal Guard. None of them appear overly faster than Greater Dog either

Shyre

• Nature of her attacks helps her out here, the sound base should count for something. The speed of sound may be amped by magic in her later attacks

Muffet

• Here by virtue of scaling below all those next, and above all those before

Supersonic
The Twin Royal Guards

• The lads you meet in Hotland. Implied to be the elite of the Royal Guard, just below Undyne

Sans and Papyrus

• Papyrus is consistently called out for being much stronger than expected, and has surprisingly quick attacks when you do battle with him (just after going against Greater Dog I might add). Sans should at least scale to his brother and can speedscrew Chara/Frisk during their battle

Toriel

• Should not scale that far below her husband. Only reason she doesn't no-sell stomp Frisk at the beginning of the game is because she is so chill and nigh on lets you win

Metato

• Robot built to be the best human killing creature in the Underground, an Underground which includes Undyne. Metaton at least scales above the Twin Royal Guards

Undyne

• High end of Supersonic for the crazy fish lady. She is superior enough to practically speedblitz both Papyrus and the Twin Royal Guards. Her spears are also so ridiculously fast that she should easily make it this far

Supersonic+
Asgore

• Best fighter in the Underground. His scythe slash is one of, if not the, fastest attack in the game. Also speedstomped Undyne. Nuff said

Tell me what y'all think!

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

Also would like to say that the gaps between each level aren't enormous. Subsonic - Transonic is 3x, Transonic - Supersonic is 1.2x, Supersonic - Supersonic+ is 2.3x. Asgore is only being shown as 8.2x faster than the slowest monsters in the game

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Shouldn't Toriel be on par with Asgore, since she was able to hit him with an attack that he saw coming?

 

[Read_this_post]

Some problems here.

The ruins monsters besides napstablook and toriel fought a frisk with far less determination than when he fought greater dog. Theres not much reason to give them anything above at least athletic human.

Greater dog is not transonic. He is only that level with his barks. Without them hes subsonic+ scaling to frisk who was that speed when they fought.

The twin guards dont scale near undyne in speed. Their position doesnt imply being able to keep up. And thats kind of contradicted when you said they got blitzed by undyne.

Shyren im fine with being possibly transonic with her attacks.

Sans should not scale below asgore at all. He was able to tag a genocide route frisk who is way above normal frisk when he fought asgore along with his attacks being faster.

Asgore has no reason to be supersonic+ unless you outright use pixel scaling on his trident. Also he blitzed undyne when she was a lot younger

Undyne should be supersonic but not the high end. Papyrus was actually able to keep up with her in combat and has never been blitzed on any occasion.

Alphys i dont think ever fought the amalgamates. Theres nothing scaling her even above ruins monsters.

Not sure if papyrus having quick attacks is something stated. But i dont think anything should give papyrus above transonic attack speed.

And theres a lot of the hotlands monsters having scaling above papyrus and having quicker or similar attacks.

@Sean She probably should. Not for that reason. But theres not much reason for her to be massively slower than asgore.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Question. Why exactly is genocide frisk above regular frisk?

Also kinda wondered why alphas scaled to much of anything. I'm not even sure we see her stats.

 

[Read_this_post]

Being able to stomp every monster in the game except undyne the undying and sans. Chara being partially influenced by your increase in power during genocide on top of frisk in pacifist being clearly stated as being weak. It makes no logical sense for frisk in genocide to be slower than pacifist frisk except for when they are fighting phososhop flowey and asriel.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Isn't that sheer attack? Not speed. There isn't a sudden boost in speed shown that I ever recall more so Frisk/Chara just gets stronger and tougher. But not to say any boost in speed. Same Enemies. Same attacks. So not sure why they would upscale speed.

Not saying saying they are slower than Pacifist frisk. Just not sure if Faster makes entirely sense to me.

 

[Read_this_post]

Sorry, I mean that they are at least the same speed if not faster. There is nothing at all indicating that a frisk who is massively more powerful than their pacifist self against other monsters being any slower than they once were. Determination can give you a speed increase as well which is something to note.

Not to mention sans attacks are blatantly the fastest attacks in the game. With the exception of attacks like the trident which warn you before hand. Until you factor in gaster blasters.

So yeah, sans should at least be supersonic scaling to asgore, undyne and the likes.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

I thought it was fairly obvious that Sans would scale to the highest nongodtier speed.

He lacks strength and durability, and relies on speed in order to dodge attacks and do major damage-per-second.

 

[Read_this_post]

It pretty much is.

Is it safer to maybe go with my slightly updated list then?

I have also neglected to mention that papyrus is a lot stronger than majority of non boss monsters in the underground factoring in hp and defences (since most other monsters glass cannons). Hp is something which can also be used for scaling, but just not linearly, though that is for another time.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

It probably would be yeah. We will need an admin to unlock the pages to enact the changes though

 

[Read_this_post]

@Crimson So what about hotlands monsters in general? Would you consider them subsonic+ only, transonic only, or one but possibly the other?

Also how about sans reactions. Is dodging a supersonic that casually potentially supersonic+ in reactions?

 

[Buttersamuri]

I would just say At least supersonic rather than potentially supersonic+. Seems safer

 

[Read_this_post]

I dont know. I mean, dodging someone with the literal impossibility of being hit, even when they rewind time countless times and even while you are asleep is something a peaked human could nowhere near do to a normal human. And iirc, supersonic+ ratings are qwarded to people who dodge bullets if done casually enough, on top of people outright blitzing someone gaining much higher rankings than that.

Its pretty diffucult to put sans as only higher end supersonic in reactions, especially when the jump to the next speed ranking is significantly closer than it was when he was subsonic and massively hypersonic.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Ehh. That's the weird part about sans. He did continue to dodge them. But Really. It seems like he just was breaking the game and dodging from the same spot. Like how he also breaks the game by attacking you on your turn to attack. And being aware of that, he probably did see when Frisk was gonna attack. He does seem to be aware of the attack and choice screen as he attacks you on it. If anything. It doesn't seem to impressive since they always struck at the same spot. And this can be backed up by the fact you have to strike a different spot to hit Sans end fight. It wasn't his speed that made it so hard. It was the game breaking mechanics. I don't feel comfortable putting him any higher. But that's just me

 

[Read_this_post]

Hitting the same spot and sans moving back is not cannon to the game. Its just gameplay mechanics. This example is simply the cinematic effect shown when you miss someone while attacking, not an established rule in the game. The only rule actually shown in universe is frisk attacking in turns. Especially when the game makes it so blatant that sans is more than capable of dodging anything you can throw at him due to his speed in terms of reactions.

Him having the reactions to perform it backed up later where sans dodges an attack while he is both tired out and asleep. Frisk only did it breaking the rules and chara taking control to hit sans an unexpected second time effectively catching him off guard and going against the games usual limitations.

To put it into perspective (assuming frisk to be baseline supersonic). Sans dodging those attacks the way he did with baseline supersonic+ reactions, is the equivilent of a normal human trying to dodge individual attacks from somone who takes 0.68 seconds to hit them, all while the attacker knows exactly where they will move and how they dodge due to time traveling constantly, while the human is tired, and even having to dodge one while they are sleeping. Which, is pretty much near impossible to pull off, even if it were amped to 1 second.

Even hypersonic isnt far out of the question especially if you can apply the blitz gap between frisks speed and sans reactions (not sure if thats possible). Supersonic+ is if anything a fairly reasonable lowball.

 

[Buttersamuri]

We can't look at it from both those perspectives. Cause that's contradicting on itself. We can't look at it from the angle that "oh well this doesn't actually show the fight and where Sans is also dodging." While at the same time saying Frisk broke the rules to attack Sans. If that screen wasn't showing how he actually dodged the attacks (in the sense that he wasn't dodging from the same spot) then dodging frisks attack should have been like dodging any other attack.

Also. Huge point that supports stand still combat. Let's take a look at Undynes fight. She chases you and then attacks you at a stand still. How do we know this? Because your still in the same spot as before when you try to escape the fight. This is more supportive that frisk is attacking from a stand still. Or at the very least, attacking from the same spot, because if they choose to run, they are still in the same spot as before. People can actually move that screen we see Sans at. He isn't the only one capable. We know cause we see several other characters do it. Like Toriel, Asgore, Undyne, Ect. So it's pretty likely Sans is just side stepping from the same spot, and frisk is attacking from the same spot. Sans sidesteps to dodge the attack but moves back to the same spot. Making dodging it, While more impressive than the other characters who don't dodge, not as impressive as It's being put. And sans knowledge on the mechanics and screen on where frisk attacks, makes also predicting attacks easier.

 

[Read_this_post]

Ummm... Ive gotta sleep rn. But could you edit that for a better explanation? Its really not making much sense at all. Unless thats just a result of my crippling tiredness or something. Gnight.

(Also youre seemingly forgetting that he dodged an attack while sleeping. Which he still dodges in every possible timeline as well.)

 

[Buttersamuri]

I'll re-edit it yea.

 

[Buttersamuri]

So. My main point is. Undertale likely has stand still combat. This is supported by the fact Frisk always is in the same spot they were in before when combat ends. As well, with fights like Undyne, she acknowledges frisk trying to run and forces frisk to be unable to run. It's an actual ability of hers. So it's very likely combat in undertale is just standstill. This all supports it

With Sans. He dodges sure. But he always dodges from the same spot, and dodges the same attack area. The only ever movement he makes on screen is sidestepping the attack and moving back into place. Other than that, he isn't shown any form of movement. And we know they can move in that screen. We see people like Toriel, Asgore, and others move on that very same screen. This doesn't limit their ability to move like that. So that would ever further support standstill combat. Which also would support this feat of dodging not being as impressive. He is dodging all of Frisks attacks sure. But from the same spot and same movement. He isn't getting a flurries of attacks every second and moment. Not like Frisk is laying an onslaught of Danamku or anything. Just one single strike which always shows to be the same spot. Lessening the feat to a decent degree. Sans is still faster than the others. But not to such a degree where Supersonic+ could be considered a low ball. And there's the other fact to consider that Sans has an awareness to the attack screen, and can even interact with it by attacking frisks soul there. So it's also likely he could have seen the attacks coming. He clearly has knowledge of it shown by the fact he can even literally attack you there.

 

[Read_this_post]

Sorry for the late response, been really busy lately.

You are overthinking and nitpicking this to a ridiculous degree.

Frisk breaking the rules has nothing to do with anything im labelling as gameplay mechanics. It's a clear action you take in order to kill sans and virtually functions as a cutscene. None of this proves we need to take nearly every game mechanic and treat it as cannon like you are seemingly trying to do.

The only thing thats cannon to the story for fights is the fact that monsters when they fight, stand there and take the attacks when its frisks turn to attack. When its there turn to attack, frisk runs around the area avoiding their danmaku patterns (or blocking, shooting, jumping etc depending on the situation). Frisk attacks them once at a time. He doesn't attack one specific spot only. The mad dummy fight alone completely debunks that. Cannon information always takes priority over gameplay mechanics even in games like undertale.

In sans case, he simply dodges your attacks and doesnt stand there and take it. Nothing implies frisk is only able to attack one specific spot in the exact same way every single time. Sans on top of that has the ability to dodge frisk to the point where they cannot hit him under any circumstance, even with complete knowledge on how he dodges and where he would go, even when he is sleeping, which is a point where he couldn't even pre anticipate frisks attack assuming what you said is true. Whether or not he dodged danmaku patterns changes nothing at all.

Again, going to the human example. A human while asleep could never dodge an attack which takes 1 second to reach them, just as they wake up from hearing the attack, on top of the attacker playing the scenario 100 times over. Same applies to all dodging every other attack while awake. That's more than enough evidence to put sans at least into the supersonic+ ranges.

Sans moving to the same spot wouldn't even change anything at all. Frisk in the fight is repeatedly being thrown across the judgement hall and frisk would have to get up close to sans in order to hit him. Him moving back to the same position doesnt change the frisk would be attacking him from different positions each time, attacking in different motions in his general direction. Moving in the same spot doesn't make frisks attacks any easier to predict. Sans sidestepping just proves the feat is casual.

Undyne forcing you to stand still with one ability doesnt mean all combat is completely standstill. It just means frisk is standing still when his soul is green. Frisk is able to attack undyne like that due to her being in close range the whole fight which is made clear in that instance. Frisk appearing in the same spot when he chooses to run, or after ending a fight is still just gameplay mechanics. Its a function in the game used to prevent you from dropping into random areas ten metres away locations or glitching off the map every time you finish a fight. These are non established rules in the verse based on visual effects which are only used make the game work properly.

Being able to send bones to attack you during your (which cover your fight option as well as others) turn by exploiting mechanics does not imply he has some kind of precognition that allows him to know exactly when you are about to attack or interact with it.

 

[Read_this_post]

Anyway. I do feel most comfortable keeping sans reactions as at least supersonic+ since hypersonic is still quite a jump to make and would require you to give the full blitz gap to sans reactions above frisks attack speed (not sure if possible or not).

The attacks admittedly werent in big numbers and he at most dodged three at a time (bullets and ballet shoes). Though they would have been aimed directly at him and in his direction the entire time as evidenced by the mad dummy fight (all three hits landed as he moves across the screen).

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

If Sans were upgraded to hypersonic I would ascend

 

[Read_this_post]

So your name is currently a lie. Can someone ban so called ascended sean please? I mean, it would only scale to his reactions. But at least supersonic+ i think is safer to go for now. Plus crimson mentioned a possible ftl reaction feat from teleportation. Though im not so sure where thats from exactly.

Anyways, i think its about deciding whether the hotlands and core monsters should be subsonic+, transonic, or at least subsonic+ possibly transonic.

I personally feel comfortable giving everyone with 29 and above transonic (except pyrope and dummy) mainly due to being both noteably skilled (mostly assassins) and powerful.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Ehhh. I'm not for Supersonic+. As far as being Nitpicky, Well. Considering how the game is. I think we kinda have too. But that's just my viewpoint on it. I'll see what others think