Some Minecraft Revisions (Tier 2 and up Edition)

[Expectro2000xxx]

Steve is avatar and a part of the player

Same is alex and any other character someone use when playing minecraft, so Steve don't have any relation to this thread.

 

[Livinmeme]

Same is alex and any other character someone use when playing minecraft, so Steve don't have any relation to this thread.

so if the player dont get nuked wich it probally would then it should be another page

 

[Leotamer]

Same is alex and any other character someone use when playing minecraft, so Steve don't have any relation to this thread.

Here is Steve's profile for reference.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Here is Steve's profile for reference.

I wrote everything having the profile open you know.

 

[FinePoint]

I just hope this gets resolved soon so I can move on to the important CRT: Creative Mode.

 

[SarieRuu]

It's look so good, i agree

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Could be a key in the profile of Steve, Steve isn't the Player because the argument is that the Player are us, real world entities that see minecraft and other stories as "dreams", and I'm pretty sure I'm not called Steve, so no, Steve is the thing currently rated as '9-A physically. At least 8-B, possibly Low 7-C with equipment'.

The poem states otherwise.

it outright states that the player is the universe that is observing itself, and that there is no such thing as the "not I" because all things are one, and separation is an illusion.

Both the real world and Minecraft are "dreams", metaphorically in that they are not someone's brain creating situations whole their body rests but something far deeper, of the player.

It's pantheism. The author even says he and Notch shared philosophies.

 

[Alonik]

A idealistic pantheism, cuz the player still is anyone who play the game and there is nothing that debunk this fact.

The player is described as the being that is beyond the computer that Minecraft is running on i.e. us the real people of the real world, the being that thinks the game is inside a screen, and several times the end poem mentions that it is installed inside that very computer. Inside the command that rotates the java script end poem is actually just the %appdata% folders, it is a very basic plugin for anyone who has used minecraft server or its "affiliates" like bukkit or paper.

 

[Leotamer]

A idealistic pantheism, cuz the player still is anyone who play the game and there is nothing that debunk this fact.

The player is described as the being that is beyond the computer that Minecraft is running on i.e. us the real people of the real world, the being that thinks the game is inside a screen, and several times the end poem mentions that it is installed inside that very computer. Inside the command that rotates the java script end poem is actually just the %appdata% folders, it is a very basic plugin for anyone who has used minecraft server or its "affiliates" like bukkit or paper.

Yes, the poem is actually just some lines of code within the %appdata% folder, because it is a piece of fiction. This is a non-point. This is the same as saying "This book isn't real, it is words on a page."

Yes, the poem mention how the player sees Minecraft as a game. It also mentions how reality is equally illusory to the player and how they were previously witches or warlocks flying through the airs on broomsticks powered by imaginary devils. You are cherry-picking what you want from the poem to make this.

 

[FinePoint]

I would say discussion of the %appdata% folder is extremely irrelevant, and would appreciate it if this thread didn't derail.

 

[TheGatememer]

A idealistic pantheism, cuz the player still is anyone who play the game and there is nothing that debunk this fact.

The player is described as the being that is beyond the computer that Minecraft is running on i.e. us the real people of the real world, the being that thinks the game is inside a screen, and several times the end poem mentions that it is installed inside that very computer. Inside the command that rotates the java script end poem is actually just the %appdata% folders, it is a very basic plugin for anyone who has used minecraft server or its "affiliates" like bukkit or paper.

The end poem is also seen in Minecraft Novels, meaning it isn't just meant to be a letter to the players, but an actual part of Minecraft.

 

[Alonik]

Yes, the poem is actually just some lines of code within the %appdata% folder, because it is a piece of fiction. This is a non-point. This is the same as saying "This book isn't real, it is words on a page."

Yes, the poem mention how the player sees Minecraft as a game. It also mentions how reality is equally illusory to the player and how they were previously witches or warlocks flying through the airs on broomsticks powered by imaginary devils. You are cherry-picking what you want from the poem to make this.

• cherry-picking
• This "philosophy" is all over the text, it is even one of the things that y'all use to argue but pretend to be blind to the real meaning.

Anyway when people who are reasonable and reliable comment I will probably reply again.

 

[Leotamer]

• cherry-picking
• This "philosophy" is all over the text, it is even one of the things that y'all use to argue but pretend to be blind to the real meaning.

Anyway when people who are reasonable and reliable comment I will probably reply again.

The thematic significance of the End Poem is losing yourself to the fiction and getting so sweep up in you forget what it is real. In specific, how an endless sandbox like Minecraft is particularly effective at in invoking this feeling.

Removing the End Poem from the context of the gameplay robs its of its significance, and the sentiment 'it is just a metaphor, don't think about it.' Is opposed to the message of the potential of immersion in video games.

If this isn't what the End Poem means, I would like to here what it exactly means when the interview with the author has been posted several times and he said that it was it meant.

 

[Alonik]

This is exactly what it means, and this is exactly the argument that favored the side of deleting the keys and against the upgrade. Thanks for agreeing with us, but you still don't seem to understand that this is the reason for the general opposition. Now you just need to understand what this means. But well, waiting for the overall conclusion anyway.

 

[Livinmeme]

This is exactly what it means, and this is exactly the argument that favored the side of deleting the keys and against the upgrade. Thanks for agreeing with us, but you still don't seem to understand that this is the reason for the general opposition. Now you just need to understand what this means. But well, waiting for the overall conclusion anyway.

How is that agrees with the deletion

 

[Leotamer]

There is a Chinese story about a man who falls asleep and dreams he is a butterfly. He wakes up, and realizes he is a man. But he then ponders if he is a man who dreamed he was a butterfly, or a butterfly who is dreaming that he is a man.

This Minecraft story shares this theme of blurring the edges of reality/unreality. Saying 'It is a metaphor, don't think about it.' Is the same as answering the butterfly story with "You are a man, don't think about it."

I fundementally disagree with the position "Don't think about it" and I think it is rich coming from the VS Battle Community of all places.

 

[FinePoint]

There is a Chinese story about a man who falls asleep and dreams he is a butterfly. He wakes up, and realizes he is a man. But he then ponders if he is a man who dreamed he was a butterfly, or a butterfly who is dreaming that he is a man.

The goal of this thread isn't to reach enlightenment over whether or not we're butterflies, nor is it to recite completely irrelevant Chinese stories. You're derailing again. We have let you think about it, in painstaking repetitive detail. This isn't the philosophy wiki, we're here to be accurate.

 

[Leotamer]

The goal of this thread isn't to reach enlightenment over whether or not we're butterflies, nor is it to recite completely irrelevant Chinese stories. You're derailing again. We have let you think about it, in painstaking repetitive detail. This isn't the philosophy wiki, we're here to be accurate.

How is this derailing? The question is whether we should take the End Poem as a part of the fiction of Minecraft and can we powerscale it. The argument against is that it is a metaphor. It being a metaphor only matters if: it is not a part of the story or it is a metaphor in the story.

The novel is evidence it is a part of the story, and we have no reason to believe it is a metaphor within the story.

Being accurate to the story would be including the End Poem, and I have been trying to establish why.

 

[Livinmeme]

The goal of this thread isn't to reach enlightenment over whether or not we're butterflies, nor is it to recite completely irrelevant Chinese stories. You're derailing again. We have let you think about it, in painstaking repetitive detail. This isn't the philosophy wiki, we're here to be accurate.

He is doing a example and he alredy explained why also the poem by default is phylosophy so another double standards

 

[AKM sama]

This thread is honestly going nowhere. People have been going back and forth on the same points. It's time we reach a decision.

 

[Livinmeme]

This thread is honestly going nowhere. People have been going back and forth on the same points. It's time we reach a decision.

umm we are alredy explained and debunked pretty much all the points so..

 

[Livinmeme]

the 1-C stuff got rejected but the 5-D stuffs is valid

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

This thread is honestly going nowhere. People have been going back and forth on the same points. It's time we reach a decision.

Can I please get the "forth" to my argument?

It's one thing to not agree, another that a side doesn't get an answer. And I don't believe pressing F3 and spending all of 60 seconds to find the argument you put forward is this herculean feat.


Seriously, just... give me an argument? Already made, or a new one, but something that answers my refutation at least? Again, debates aren't meant to be "it's x", "no, because y", "no, it's x, I got more votes.".

 

[FinePoint]

Seriously, just... give me an argument? Already made, or a new one, but something that answers my refutation at least? Again, debates aren't meant to be "it's x", "no, because y", "no, it's x, I got more votes.".

It's strange that you don't even know if your argument has already been refuted or not. If you're going to passionately debate something, you should at least read the entire thread.

Besides, debates aren't meant to be endless chains of refutations either. Sometimes the first refutation is determined to simply not be strong enough.

 

[Livinmeme]

It's strange that you don't even know if your argument has already been refuted or not. If you're going to passionately debate something, you should at least read the entire thread.

Besides, debates aren't meant to be endless chains of refutations either. Sometimes the first refutation is determined to simply not be strong enough.

you know that he isnt a machine and they can bring older arguments to refute him rigth

 

[manu_zarri]

It's time we reach a decision.

I still want know how delete votes are still valid after I pointed out 4 times which noobody really cared on that in the poem there are decent feats of other ratings alone that aren't metaphors and which have a good context

at least we should change them to disagree

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It's strange that you don't even know if your argument has already been refuted or not.

Did you... miss everything above that comment? Like, where I say "at least try to argue back", and I'm told "I already did, but I won't copy paste it because I can't be bothered."

I put an argument forward, and was told my argument was actually countered seemingly unknownst to me, so many pages ago that to F3 it and click "Quote" would be too much of a hassle.

If you're going to passionately debate something, you should at least read the entire thread.

I did! I am trying to be more subdle than "oh, you countered me, but you cannot remember where exactly and cannot spare the time it rakes to write those sentences to F3 your own name and quote that argument. Likely story."

You know, I try to assume I'm at fault instead of assuming someone else is.

Besides, debates aren't meant to be endless chains of refutations either.

Aha, you realize that is a literal fallacy, yes. "Oh, you want your arguments to be refuted? Arguments do not need to be infinite you know?"

I did not ask for an infinite argument. I asked for one, period.

Sometimes the first refutation is determined to simply not be strong enough.

And it has to be explained why.


For all its not true, at least the attempt to not make threads into popolarity polls should be done.

 

[FinePoint]

Aha, you realize that is a literal fallacy, yes. "Oh, you want your arguments to be refuted? Arguments do not need to be infinite you know?"

I only mention it because this thread has gone in circles for four pages straight. I did refute counter-arguments earlier.
Perhaps I'm projecting too much of the blame on you, and I apologize in that case, but I've seen nothing but "We've already refuted every argument perfectly with no response." this entire thread.

The history is all here, everyone can see that there were responses given after the initial rebuttals. If you do not think they were adequate, then that's where it comes down to your opinion. The reason we're considering votes now is because neither side can convince the other, thus making it the only way to break the cyclical arguments which have been repeating. Even so, the arguments themselves are being considered too, not just the votes.

For the sake of not being a hypocrite, this is the last message I will send until a staff consensus is reached.

 

[Livinmeme]

I only mention it because this thread has gone in circles for four pages straight. I did refute counter-arguments earlier.
Perhaps I'm projecting too much of the blame on you, and I apologize in that case, but I've seen nothing but "We've already refuted every argument perfectly with no response." this entire thread.

The history is all here, everyone can see that there were responses given after the initial rebuttals. If you do not think they were adequate, then that's where it comes down to your opinion. The reason we're considering votes now is because neither side can convince the other, thus making it the only way to break the cyclical arguments which have been repeating. Even so, the arguments themselves are being considered too, not just the votes.

For the sake of not being a hypocrite, this is the last message I will send until a staff consensus is reached.

Yep but when he is refering that is a "popularity contest" is he refering to people being biased agaist the idea of "funny minecraft man becoming 5-D"

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This thread is honestly going nowhere. People have been going back and forth on the same points. It's time we reach a decision.

Aye. The votes have seemingly not changed since last time, the arguments are seemingly still the same. "It's metaphorical", "doesn't matter that it's metaphorical if it falls in lines with the author's beliefs" "the author says it isn't legitimate" "death of the author", so on and so forth. Nothing's changed since the first page of text here.

We still have staff votes 7-3 in favor of deletion of the Entities and removal of the real-world player key for the Player (Minecraft). In terms of overall votes it is a closer race, but at last count I believe it was 22-20 in favor of deletion.

 

[Livinmeme]

Aye. The votes have seemingly not changed since last time, the arguments are seemingly still the same. "It's metaphorical", "doesn't matter that it's metaphorical if it falls in lines with the author's beliefs" "the author says it isn't legitimate" "death of the author", so on and so forth. Nothing's changed since the first page of text here.

We still have staff votes 7-3 in favor of deletion of the Entities and removal of the real-world player key for the Player (Minecraft). In terms of overall votes it is a closer race, but at last count I believe it was 22-20 in favor of deletion.

no? people has give some really god arguments to debunk that and has actually changed

 

[manu_zarri]

Aye. The votes have seemingly not changed since last time, the arguments are seemingly still the same. "It's metaphorical", "doesn't matter that it's metaphorical if it falls in lines with the author's beliefs" "the author says it isn't legitimate" "death of the author", so on and so forth. Nothing's changed since the first page of text here.

We still have staff votes 7-3 in favor of deletion of the Entities and removal of the real-world player key for the Player (Minecraft). In terms of overall votes it is a closer race, but at last count I believe it was 22-20 in favor of deletion.

I still want know how delete votes are still valid after I pointed out 4 times which noobody really cared on that in the poem there are decent feats of other ratings alone that aren't metaphors and which have a good context

at least we should change them to disagree

Smh

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Smh

And I could make literally the same call by going "oH bUT MoST vOtES fOR 1-c hAPpeNeD bEFoRe i mAde mY LE EpIc cOunTeRaRGuMenTs!!!11!!"

doesn't really matter, since most of the arguments have been the same or strikingly similar throughout the whole thing. I believe you lose more ground than you gain by doing that, lad.

Count the votes as they are.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

no? people has give some really god arguments to debunk that and has actually changed

They have not, no. I have been choosing not to respond due to the circular nature of this thread that's continued for 5 pages. If people want to DebateLord, they may, this does not change the verdict.

 

[manu_zarri]

And I could make literally the same call by going "oH bUT MoST vOtES fOR 1-c hAPpeNeD bEFoRe i mAde mY LE EpIc cOunTeRaRGuMenTs!!!11!!"

doesn't really matter, since most of the arguments have been the same or strikingly similar throughout the whole thing. I believe you lose more ground than you gain by doing that, lad.

Count the votes as they are.

Dude, you even read what i writed? I literally said that there are not metaphor feats which are enough for a rating. Aka deletion isn't needed. Either way you can't also count votes that came before a certain argument because you would assume they readed that argument and didn't actually agree, while most of people who agreed here disapeared from existence and the thread itself. Also there is no ground that i lose because it's not even a point for agree, it's just a point that deletion makes 0 sense in his substance and that people shouldn't ignore 4 messages that i needed write because they costantly ignored the argument and when they answer to it it's a vague answer that dosen't debunks the argument. Please agrue on actual argument instead of saying "It's similiar to others one", because it isn't.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I've read it every time it has been posted in this thread, yes. The same argument, over and over ad infinitum. I disagree with the assessment "it doesn't need deleted". Hence why my, and others, votes are unchanged. Posting the same thing repeatedly does not in fact make it any more correct.

 

[Livinmeme]

I've read it every time it has been posted in this thread, yes. The same argument, over and over ad infinitum. I disagree with the assessment "it doesn't need deleted". Hence why my, and others, votes are unchanged. Posting the same thing repeatedly does not in fact make it any more correct.

straw man. we have bringed alot of arguments and not just one and how is a good reasons to delete it if there are feats that havent been debunked and only have been focused into one specific feat

 

[Livinmeme]

I'm neutral on the proposed upgrade in the OP.

I disagree with deletion.
I haven't seen any counters to Ricsi-viragosi's arguments. It seems like bad practice to say "I've already debunked your argument but I can't be bothered to show you the debunk argument."

I also think that deleting stuff just because the justifications might be metaphorical, even though there are some clear-cut statements, is wrong.

I feel like the staff members present in this thread are handling this very badly. I expected that as staff members they would at least handle this thread fairly and mostly unbiased, but it does feel like some people are just opting for deletion since Minecraft being Tier 1 sounds so illogical.
I've been present in this community for a short while now, and I still can't confidentially say that I know the procedures regarding CRT's, but I can fully understand rejecting CRT's in this current manner if the arguments are recycled from previous CRT's, yet this is the first CRT to my knowledge to present these arguments for upgrades, and thus I see no reason to not attempt to even counter Ricsi's arguments.

This poem is part of not only the game, but also the novels, and is considered canon, even if it could possibly be metaphorical, and thus I honestly see no reason to delete the related profiles and keys.
My suggestion would be that we create a separate profile for the player, and indicate on all profiles that use the poem as justifications that it's purely based on the poem.

Still, I know this entire post is mostly irrelevant, since as a non-staff member my opinion isn't worth much.

yep but my main problem is that there are a 3-A feats and a low 1-C feats that everyone is ignoring bordeline acting if they dont exist

 

[Leotamer]

I've read it every time it has been posted in this thread, yes. The same argument, over and over ad infinitum. I disagree with the assessment "it doesn't need deleted". Hence why my, and others, votes are unchanged. Posting the same thing repeatedly does not in fact make it any more correct.

Can you provide a summary of the arguments opposing deletion? I don't think this is an unfair standard of debate, especially for a mod whose vote apparently carries more weight, if you can't understand the argument, then how can you fairly criticize it beyond it being not understandable.

 

[Livinmeme]

Can you provide a summary of the arguments opposing deletion? I don't think this is an unfair standard of debate, especially for a mod whose vote apparently carries more weight, if you can't understand the argument, then how can you fairly criticize it beyond it being not understandable.

i mean he would probally ignore all the 5-D arguments to straw man it and debunk it more easier so...