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I'm done with this thread, I don't even know how them being universe and being explained in details is a metaphor
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Some Minecraft Revisions (Tier 2 and up Edition)
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
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Mr. Bambu
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It seems fruitless, given folks have made up their minds already, but I can give a plot synopsis of some of the points. No, I don't expect this to sway your opinions on the matter, and until the pages are deleted this'll probably be my last post on this thread. I'm tired of it.
- The End Poem is a metaphor, a myth even in regards to the game- this much is stated plainly in the interviews. Regardless of how much this is argued over and bickered about, the fact remains that the interview paints this poem as being nothing more than a grab for emotional fulfillment rather than an actual "plot" element- this point is made even more notable by the fact that plot itself is hardly an element in basic Minecraft to begin with.
- Even if this were accepted as legitimate, the argument of "exceptional claims require exceptional evidence" has been made several times, where the only counterargument was from Ricsi, who was so bold to say "but this is exceptional evidence" with no further elaboration. It is not, in fact, exceptional evidence. So even if we were to assume the End Poem was factual, which we are told it is not, it would not be sufficient.
- Death of the Author as an argument only works when Word of God is contradicted- not per the original meaning of Death of the Author, of course, but per the wiki's rules. Word of God in this case is totally valid.
- The feat itself (and this is an extremely minor point, one should add) is vague- so vague that even those defending it cannot agree on where it falls, ranging from 2-B to 1-C. This is an unacceptable range for one feat, and represents some 4 levels of transcendence of disparity between the low-end and the high-end. Even if the feat were legitimate, it seems far too vague to actually reliably list. Given this is the case, even if the page were to exist, it would be at best "Unknown"- this has actually been suggested to me by some, but these people failed to account for the above facts.
These, I believe, are the primary factors- I may well have missed some or forgotten them, as I didn't bother going through the, again, 5 pages of circular arguments. Tried to make these as concise as possible. Now, @Antvasima and @AKM sama, I'm happy to do the deletions and changes if you feel the staff vote is conclusive enough.
- The End Poem is a metaphor, a myth even in regards to the game- this much is stated plainly in the interviews. Regardless of how much this is argued over and bickered about, the fact remains that the interview paints this poem as being nothing more than a grab for emotional fulfillment rather than an actual "plot" element- this point is made even more notable by the fact that plot itself is hardly an element in basic Minecraft to begin with.
- Even if this were accepted as legitimate, the argument of "exceptional claims require exceptional evidence" has been made several times, where the only counterargument was from Ricsi, who was so bold to say "but this is exceptional evidence" with no further elaboration. It is not, in fact, exceptional evidence. So even if we were to assume the End Poem was factual, which we are told it is not, it would not be sufficient.
- Death of the Author as an argument only works when Word of God is contradicted- not per the original meaning of Death of the Author, of course, but per the wiki's rules. Word of God in this case is totally valid.
- The feat itself (and this is an extremely minor point, one should add) is vague- so vague that even those defending it cannot agree on where it falls, ranging from 2-B to 1-C. This is an unacceptable range for one feat, and represents some 4 levels of transcendence of disparity between the low-end and the high-end. Even if the feat were legitimate, it seems far too vague to actually reliably list. Given this is the case, even if the page were to exist, it would be at best "Unknown"- this has actually been suggested to me by some, but these people failed to account for the above facts.
These, I believe, are the primary factors- I may well have missed some or forgotten them, as I didn't bother going through the, again, 5 pages of circular arguments. Tried to make these as concise as possible. Now, @Antvasima and @AKM sama, I'm happy to do the deletions and changes if you feel the staff vote is conclusive enough.
Mr. Bambu
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Because the author said so. If you can't behave, go rant somewhere else. I rather like yelling into a pillow personally but you're free to cope how you like.
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The above goes for you, too, lad.
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... are you serious rigth now or are you joking?
isnt like i been here for the begining or i have explained like a thousands times
1. parts of the poem being subjective doesnt mean all is subjective
2. the poem is canon
3. the player and the entities are real
4. and finally i say like atleast 20 times that the 5-D feats still exist but get ignored
like literally no one has even responded or tried to debunk the 5-D feats
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Where was "a myth even in regards to the game" ever stated. If you can provide one sentence or paragraph from the interview that states that from the perspective of the game, that the End Poem is myth in plain text with no need for further interpretation, then I will side with the deletion argument.
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Oh bringing things out of context N I C E
the author only sayed that to the dreams and the poem is real because is in the novels and the entire poem is about not getting lost in fictions
also even without the dreams stuffs the 3-A and Low 1-C still exists damn even one of the entities say "the player has reached a higher level of existence"
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That's the ultimate prove you didn't read my message, since I especially said that author was refering to dreams, now I sleep
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I’m still not understanding why a metaphor debunks this, is that not a way for it to be more digestible for his fanbase—young children and teenagers?
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also the metaphor exist to make the entities look powerfull and they even say that they put it in metaphors so the player brain doesnt go kaboom or just dont understand
like the entities are adults and a toddler is a dog they have to simplify their toddler to understand
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The circle continues of you stone walling me or anyone and ignoring every argument you dont have a counter to in hope that it get ignored wich you have done this entire thread can you please atleast try to debunk the argument instead of "nah i dont buy it"
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I have stated a condition in which I would change my mind, which your previous argumentation would suggest that you would be able to easily provide. Can you name a single condition that would get you to change your mind?
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i doubt he will get his mind changed like in a millon years
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You will never accept our arguments and we will never accept yours, this is circular and you know it.
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one thing is not accepting a argument or idea the other is just plain ignoring someone points and not even giving a argument
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Because our side has grown tired of the circles, it has been going on for 5 pages, and it is clear we will never reach a consensus, it is better to let the Bureaucrats and other staff decide at this point, because otherwise we could do this for another 10 pages
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... what
1. that doesnt justify why he havent given another argument or arguments in general
2. also i am tired you know in fact everyone is tired but we dont use as a excuse to not give a actual argument instead of "all of you are wrong" without anything besides that
3. also no one in the thread has even tried to debunked the 5-D feats and they just treated like it doesnt exist
ah and also the part of getting the profiles deleted come from a out of context argument so there is that
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Some people don't have the stamina and willingness to just continue to argue for 1000 posts over a block games tiering.
I would rather someone summarize the arguments for both sides in a Non biased way so that the staff and mods can judge it. And before you tell me to do it I suck at summaries and may be biased.
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still not a good argument
yes i understand the point of stamina and that things
but he is acting like the " i am rigth and you are wrong" is a good argument i would be fine if he just said that he is tired or he gona response later but why respond if you are gona respond in a super lame way?
also says i am gona do it in a "Non biased way" *instantly says that he may be biased
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Why should we continue to argue when you very clearly will never change your mind? You are talking to someone who has done this song and dance with you before.
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well because is a discussion it doesnt matter if you doesnt change the mind of the opponent as long as you won the argument
changing the minds of one people dont really matter in the long run if most people percive you as the winner
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and they never presented a new argument and i atleast presenting arguments and debunking instead of "i won and i wont elaborate further" also no one has even tried to debunk the 5-D feat that is the entire point of the poem
also it doesnt matter if the argument isnt now if is valid
also when i am refering to 5-D feats i am refering to steve seeing minecraft as fiction as a game and the entire point of the poem is that the player created steve to experience the dream he created but got to inmersed in it
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is fun to me
also that is the old and i thinked it was refering to him but it was me
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But... that wasn't an argument, it was a baseless claim.
It claims the WoG states its a metaphor and a myth even in-game.
And yet, it cannot bother to give even one quote, because it would fall apart if it did. I did give quotes for the opposite too.
How can you possibly argue its meant to be not taken at all seriously when the author is ecstatic that people are thinking about it for weeks, and the fact that the author states that he felt like he was being dictated the text by the universe? That's literal even in the meta sense, let alone in-story.
And why is the poem in the novel, if it's only a pat on the back about completing the game?
It claims the WoG states its a metaphor and a myth even in-game.
And yet, it cannot bother to give even one quote, because it would fall apart if it did. I did give quotes for the opposite too.
How can you possibly argue its meant to be not taken at all seriously when the author is ecstatic that people are thinking about it for weeks, and the fact that the author states that he felt like he was being dictated the text by the universe? That's literal even in the meta sense, let alone in-story.
And why is the poem in the novel, if it's only a pat on the back about completing the game?
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You know, the problem was the lack of proof. Such as claiming WoG without any actual quotes, when those that oppose you did give quotes.
This is a claim without proof. Once again, the word metaphor is used twice:
"It's dream as metaphor."
"The next step, which is the one that interests me, is that this monomyth is essentially a metaphor for the individual journey that we all have to go in our lives."
The former refers to how the text saying "this is a dream" isn't "you're in a bed sleeping" but something different. Specifically, you can see it here: "and sometimes the player believed the universe had spoken to it through the zeros and ones, through the electricity of the world, through the scrolling words on a screen at the end of a dream.", where dream obviously doesn't mean "a series of thoughts, images, and sensations occurring in a person's mind during sleep".
Taking the second as grounds for deletion means that Star Wars cannot get a profile, as it's a the hero's journey, and reflects "the monomyth".
Obviously, neither can apply for deletion.
Proof against this is that the message of the poem, the universe loves you and is you, is the real world philosophy of the author, and Notch apparently.
"And when I finally delivered it he said that it tied in with some of his feelings about the universe. That was nice, that we were philosophically on the same page."
...And that he felt that, even if not true, the author felt like it was being dictated by the universe.
"Yes, and by the end of it I actually felt like I was taking dictation from the universe. Now, I'm sure there are many ways of interpreting that experience that don't require cosmic voices from unknown entities to be talking to each other, but it actually did feel like I was taking dictation."
It is not, anywhere. In-fact, I am certain this wasn't even mentioned in previous arguments. How can it possibly be a myth to the game, when it's an end-game poem that only the player gets to see?
Of the thirteen times myth is said (loosely, counting "mythical" into it as well), one is about how messages delivered in games and movies can put someone into the mental position where myths are born from (useless to this discussion), evelen are about the monomyth and the hero's journey (useless to this discussion), and the last is about how their playfullness is an important part for a myth to last (useless to this discussion).
The belief that this poem is somehow an in-game myth is... bizarre. I just cannot understand how such a thing would be thought of.
Even ignoring that the purpose of fiction doesn't matter to us (we don't care if the new Godzilla movie makes a point about how we're destroying the enviroment and mother nature is trying to fight back, we tier that shit regardless), it is stated he wished to give a spiritual experience to those that read it, to make them feel something that was already there by presenting his philosophy.
Emotional reaction surprised the author. "But it was the emotional intensity and depth of engagement that got me, compared to what usually happens when I write for a newspaper or something…"
I have put the quotes about this being his and Notch's philosphy above.
The purpose of it being written doesn't change that it presents and explains the entierity of the game and what happens in it.
Which means nothing here. Again, subverting expectations does not mean it cannot be indexed. Even before the poem was written, Notch explicitly wanted something completly different from the normal experience and overly verbose.
See, this is just bad for several reasons.
Firstly, I went through a lot of effort to post quotes to justify the tier I was suggesting. To claim it was "so bold" when I presented explainations and quotes that the epxlainations were based on, and dismissing both as "with no further elaboration" is just literally ingoring everything I wrote.
Here it is again, in an abridged version.
- The player is the universe: "And the player was the universe." "and the universe said you are not separate from every other thing" "and the universe said you are the universe tasting itself, talking to itself, reading its own code." "Your body touching the universe again at every point, as though you were separate things. As though we were separate things."
- Minceraft as a world is part of the player's dream: "Sometimes the player dreamed it was a miner, on the surface of a world that was flat, and infinite. The sun was a square of white. The days were short; there was much to do; and death was a temporary inconvenience." "Sometimes it believed it was in a universe that was made of energy that was made of offs and ons; zeros and ones; lines of code. Sometimes it believed it was playing a game. Sometimes it believed it was reading words on a screen."
- The real world is the player's dream, too: "Sometimes it thought itself human, on the thin crust of a spinning globe of molten rock. The ball of molten rock circled a ball of blazing gas that was three hundred and thirty thousand times more massive than it. They were so far apart that light took eight minutes to cross the gap. The light was information from a star, and it could burn your skin from a hundred and fifty million kilometres. (Note that right after this it lists off five other types of dreams the player can have, including minecraft, obviously equating this to that)" "And the player awoke, from the warm, dark world of its mother's body, into the long dream. (Note that this directly ties in to "Sometimes the player woke from one dream into another")" "Sometimes the player created a small, private world that was soft and warm and simple. Sometimes hard, and cold, and complicated. Sometimes it built a model of the universe in its head; flecks of energy, moving through vast empty spaces. Sometimes it called those flecks "electrons" and "protons". Sometimes it called them "planets" and "stars"."
To view a Low 2-C structure, let alone 2-C or above, as purely fictive and just mere imagination is grounds for reality-fiction interaction to make the player Low 1-C.
Death of the author was not an argument I actually saw being used, only that the author never claimed it to begin with. Which obviously makes it not valid.
"Ah, you do not all agree on the feat? It must mean it's to vague to be indexed at all." Minor point or not, it's just a shitty one. I don't have to agree with Ultima to disagree with you.
The different interpretation is also not complex, it's simply how you take waking up from one dream to another, whether you think one dream was inside of another or just followed the other.
Ah, so anyone who got upgraded from Low 2-C to Low 1-C ought to be deleted since the interpretation swung around so much, huh?
Hell, this kind of "tier 2 or 1" is common even, when you need to decide whether transcending something/seeing it as fiction is grounds for being a dimensionality higher or not.
Reminds me of all the times people argue for 1-A while others argue for Low 2-C because of muh concepts. Should just delete those profiles smh.
No, the only way this argument could hold any ground would be if a single person claimed 2-B, Low 1-C, and 1-C to all be low and high ends- which no-one did.
And once again... there are two quotes stating flatly you are the universe, and two that do so less bluntly ("as though you were seperate").
There are... pretty sure a dozen quotes talking about how you make these worlds in your dreams.
As Ultima has said, he'd be more than happy to talk to me about why he thinks it's 1-C rather than Low 1-C, and since he tends to give quotes besides his arguments, I believe we very well could come to an agreement without making it a vote.
Long story short,you once again claim things without actually giving any proof for them. And yes, counting votes for deletions that came way before any counterarguments, from people who jumped in then faded out of existence, does not tend to be allowed most of the time. I remember a thread where it was outright prohibited, but that was way back, before the move I'm pretty sure.
Mr. Bambu
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As I said, I've got no interest in continuing the debate any longer. You may claim "no evidence" or "everyone voted before the new arguments were made"- the former is false and the latter is true for the 1-C supporters than the deletion group. The latter came to vote after the majority of the 1-C supporters. All staff members that spoke on behalf of 1-C came before I spoke, all staff afterwards have spoken against 1-C. You may disagree with my reasons and the reasons of others. I've been on this site for a long time, I've long since learned nobody on the internet will admit when they are wrong. You may even demonize me if it is your wish, I simply don't care anymore. The votes are in, the arguments are in whether you acknowledge them or not.
I'm waiting for the verdict from @Antvasima and @AKM sama now. Thanks.
I'm waiting for the verdict from @Antvasima and @AKM sama now. Thanks.
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Uhuh, certainly. It's too bad that despite taking on the impossible task of looking through all your posts, I see no quotes period, let alone one that claims the poem is:
Here are all your quotes. I took the liberty of not copy-pasting the ones where you only count the votes, and seperated them into different arguments, and ones that don't argue anything (like jokes or expressing exasperation, or stating what you want without an argument):
And lastly, the argument against using the tiers if the poem is taken literally.
You will notice a shocking lack of any actual quotes, or proof, of this incredible WoG that kills any argument that could be had. Besides stuff like varying between claiming the poem is just a pat on the back for finishing the game, to claiming it's a metaphor for how games change your mind, to saying it's an in-story myth, makes Bambu's stance a lot less consistent.
The only consistent claim was that WoG says it isn't literal, and that death of the author doesn't apply. And yet, despite the link for the interview being posted several times, I do not seem to be finding a quote that claims it is non-literal. And I supposed the arguments against the tier (you can't agree with each other, how could we possibly give a consistent tier) is consistent in that it is brought up once.
And I've posted both sentences that contain the word metaphor on the thread itself, so I could hardly be skipping over them....
- A pat on the back
- dev giving the player a sense of accomplishment
- An in-game myth
- A metaphor
Here are all your quotes. I took the liberty of not copy-pasting the ones where you only count the votes, and seperated them into different arguments, and ones that don't argue anything (like jokes or expressing exasperation, or stating what you want without an argument):
And lastly, the argument against using the tiers if the poem is taken literally.
You will notice a shocking lack of any actual quotes, or proof, of this incredible WoG that kills any argument that could be had. Besides stuff like varying between claiming the poem is just a pat on the back for finishing the game, to claiming it's a metaphor for how games change your mind, to saying it's an in-story myth, makes Bambu's stance a lot less consistent.
The only consistent claim was that WoG says it isn't literal, and that death of the author doesn't apply. And yet, despite the link for the interview being posted several times, I do not seem to be finding a quote that claims it is non-literal. And I supposed the arguments against the tier (you can't agree with each other, how could we possibly give a consistent tier) is consistent in that it is brought up once.
And I've posted both sentences that contain the word metaphor on the thread itself, so I could hardly be skipping over them....
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Something something rage against the dying of the light. Your interpretation ain't the sole one, we've been in this song and dance for ages. I'm not the sole one doing the speaking. I do not care anymore, Ricsi. You know how the wiki works. When something ain't clear, votes decide. Both sets of votes are in favor of deletion. You can keep arguing against it but this has not ostensibly changed. I do not actually care to argue any more than is needed over bloody Minecraft.
So yeah, a lot of my comments are dismissive. Because that's what I'm doing. I am dismissing the notion of debating further. I've been openly doing so for some time. If this is your new point it's hardly something that was hidden.
The only thing to do is await permission.
So yeah, a lot of my comments are dismissive. Because that's what I'm doing. I am dismissing the notion of debating further. I've been openly doing so for some time. If this is your new point it's hardly something that was hidden.
The only thing to do is await permission.
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Actually. Since all arguments seem to be made.
Staff, feel free to post if something important comes up. Otherwise I'm lockin' this to cease chatter til' Ant and AKM come around.
Staff, feel free to post if something important comes up. Otherwise I'm lockin' this to cease chatter til' Ant and AKM come around.
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I am personally fine with if you delete the pages. An explanation note needs to be written in the Minecraft verse page in conjunction though.
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Something along the lines of "The End Poem has been deemed too unreliable to base profiles on, and thus keys or character profiles based on the text therein are prohibited"?
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"Based on context provided by this interview, the End Poem has been deemed insufficient to base profiles, statistics, et cetera on. To summarize, it has been decided that the End Poem is both insufficient to prove potential ratings and considered too questionable in its legitimacy (refer to the aforementioned interview) to support it as justification for any use on this wiki."
better?
better?
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