Some Fate Changes

[RavenSupreme]

this calc

http://www.millenniumforums.com/showthread.php?43169-Ramesses-II-bringing-the-heat

would give certain fate characters an upgrade for AP / dura

before i make changes i like to wait for some input - tho the entire shit seems pretty straightforward

 

[Yamatohime]

OP in linked thread misread the NP description. It can DESTROY Tokyo and VAPORIZE entire fleet. As far as I remember vaporizing 2,3 long km spaceship from "Super Dimensional Fortress Macross" is only Large City Level/Mountain Level. And yeah... 2,3 long km spaceship is roughly weight as normal naval fleet of our times.

 

[RavenSupreme]

if the attack has vaporizing properties it would mean the means of destruction is vaporization as well tho

 

[Yamatohime]

if the attack has vaporizing properties it would mean the means of destruction is vaporization as well tho

No-no. Nuclear blast can vaporize almost anything inside fireball (several dozen meters in diameter), but it can waste Town as large as several km in diameter as well.

 

[RavenSupreme]

the thing is compared to a solar flare so...

 

[RavenSupreme]

just recalced with pulverization, despite it not being likely in my mind but i have zero to no intel on fate in the first place and just go by what was presented

3.282e+18 x 214,35 = 703496700000000000000 joules or 168 gt

 

[Yamatohime]

the thing is compared to a solar flare so...

The basic value of solar flare here is Small Country level. But description (more like translation) is kind of iffy.

 

[RavenSupreme]

yeha. thats why i found it reasonable to link the calc. we had the SF comparison, the one-shot stuff, no indications that there are different level of energy present and a clear reference to a vaping method of destruction when used.

no idea to who it would scale but i know it would scale to at least the caster (yes i know, thats not the most clever deduction but lol)

 

[Yamatohime]

The main problem with solar flare... Is that it actualy has average duration of 1 minute. But we don't know duration of this NP.

 

[RegisNex1232]

This seems fine, though I'd like if I could see the translation/passage first for clarity, just to see what they were really saying.

That said, this doesn't really scale to anyone except maybe Proto Arthur and Arash combined (if we have their profiles already) since they managed to overcome it together with great effort (Full power Proto Excalibur, which is at EX Rank, above regular Saber's Excalibur + Arash's Stella with 3 Command Seals).

Also @RavenSupreme, the people at the link you provided said something about a MHS calc for B and above Agility Servants. Is there a link to that calc? I'd like to see just for personal reference, and it may add some changes as well.

 

[RavenSupreme]

i get that you mean - the destruction may be vaporization but how long does it takes until the feat is accomplished, right?

but does this even matter here? the result was said to take place in 1 shot, unless not other stated we have no reason to belive it should not be just that - one singluar attack. like for example the excalibur proto which is said to be inferior.

 

[Yamatohime]

I think we already chewed MHS calculatio.

One shot can be as long as several dozen seconds (like those in sci-fi franchises) and output is usualy instant one instead of prolonged. Still, Solar Flare can be very short (around 10 seconds).

 

[RavenSupreme]

i thought one thing it may scale to as well is the fafnir armor, since its likely the best defense in the series

and gilgamesh it should scale to as well?

 

[RavenSupreme]

i can try to contact the guys again from the forum and try to find more stuff about the speed and other stuff. i specifically just linked this calc since, while not familiar with the series, i understand the steps behind it

 

[Yamatohime]

NP do not work as simple as this. Armor of Fafnir is one of them.

 

[RavenSupreme]

in the end it should still boil down to energy levels tho - and the question is whether or not fafnir can withstand an energy of this magnitude - which i support

but like i said: i will likely create a separa thread for it. for now yama, for which characte do you think it should scale in the first place?

 

[Yamatohime]

in the end it should still boil down to energy levels tho - and the question is whether or not fafnir can withstand an energy of this magnitude - which i support

God's Hand can protect Berserker from Universe level of destruction if the said destruction has a rank below A. At the same time Berserker can be killed by Excaliblast which is A-rank and Small Island level. So the first thing that should come is mechanics behind NPs.

but like i said: i will likely create a separa thread for it. for now yama, for which characte do you think it should scale in the first place?

I doubt it can be scaled to anyone.

 

[RegisNex1232]

The Armour of Fafnir reduces any attacks above B Rank in power by the B Rank power, decreasing the attack's power. In game terms, say B Rank = 50. It no sells any and all attacks that have a value below/equal to 50 and reduces any attacks above 50 by 50 (basically Attack = X, actual Damage done = X-50). Save for his weakspot, all attacks get reduced.

@RavenSupreme, it's not very important and I don't mind if you don't/can't get the link, I was just curious in case we could make an upgrade.

That said, it would probably boost Arash's Stella AP (with the caveat that it required 3 command Seals) as it and Proto Ex managed to beat this. Durability wise, nothing else, since no one has ever taken attacks on this scale and walked away, save for some who have better feats.

 

[Yamatohime]

That said, it would probably boost Arash's Stella AP (with the caveat that it required 3 command Seals) as it and Proto Ex managed to beat this. Durability wise, nothing else, since no one has ever taken attacks on this scale and walked away, save for some who have better feats.

Armor is useless. Mostly. For Nasuverse. It is a battle of haxes.

 

[RavenSupreme]

thats too much of in-verse knowledge for me give a reply, i will refrain from making any changes then. when the calc is valid thats enough for me.

how it scales to character X and Y or not i let other people decide until i have catched up then

however in cross-verse battles there are no "rankings" and the entire A/B stuff doesnt matter anymore and we take into account energy equivalents

 

[Yamatohime]

however in cross-verse battles there are no "rankings" and the entire A/B stuff doesnt matter anymore and we take into account energy equivalents

Well, actualy it matters. That's why some Nasuverse characters can be hard to use.

 

[RavenSupreme]

however in cross-verse battles there are no "rankings" and the entire A/B stuff doesnt matter anymore and we take into account energy equivalents

Well, actualy it matters. That's why some Nasuverse characters can be hard to use.

never came across that problem tho. however in terms of siegfried there are some things which likely get him the scaling nontheless- some translation pieces from canon pretaining sieg. they kind of hint at Sieg beeing able to survive Vasavi Shakti. you know, being ex ranked, and the secret last resort attack of one of the strongest characters

 

[Yamatohime]

Vasavi Shakti is ultimate Anti-Divine weapon. EX-rank shows not its destruction power but its unique properties.

 

[RavenSupreme]

i will dig a little deeper. but its not only anti divine but also anti army with his second NP being anti-country already

eh. lets see where this heads

also found this

so its not only "unique"

 

[RegisNex1232]

never came across that problem tho. however in terms of siegfried there are some things which likely get him the scaling nontheless- some translation pieces from canon pretaining sieg. they kind of hint at Sieg beeing able to survive Vasavi Shakti. you know, being ex ranked, and the secret last resort attack of one of the strongest characters

Sieg only survived VS due to Astolfo blocking it with Achilles' Akhilleus Kosmos.

That said, the line of thought that only ranks and mechanics matter seems a bit too much of a NLF to me, since this is a Wiki which goes by feats, not NLFs. Ranks do give us an indication of power, speed or the variable constant being measured, but it's not all mechanics.

 

[RavenSupreme]

yeha i think so too - regardless of intervention (i cant comment on that on how its played out) he survived something arguably > ozys stuff, meaning he should likely get the lesser scaling - it was stated that due to AoF he ,ay survive it himself (what i got)

on top i agree that in-verse the rankings are hard to gauge and complicated, but when compared in a vs scenario we should look at the energy levels

 

[Yamatohime]

That said, the line of thought that only ranks and mechanics matter seems a bit too much of a NLF to me, since this is a Wiki which goes by feats, not NLFs. Ranks do give us an indication of power, speed or the variable constant being measured, but it's not all mechanics.

It how it works. Mechanics come first, ranks second (but those rank has different meaning from mechanics to mechanics). Damage and durability quite variable vs different type of mechanics...

 

[RegisNex1232]

No Raven, what I meant, is that he didn't take the attack at all, it was blocked by him by someone else, so Sieg and his AoF can't be scaled to this, as it would still be far above anything he's tanked which is Mordred's Clarent Blood Arthur, which is around City-Mountain Level.

BTW, I hope you don't mind but I've messaged some staff members and people familiar to the verse to check this out.

 

[Reppuzan]

I understand Yamatohime's points, but it's kind of odd for a weapon to be able to vaporize one type of target but only able to pulverize another one (unless it somehow has enough kinetic energy to generate a shockwave). Unless we have a description of its effects in-story (I based his profile off the Type-Moon Wiki's info) I think the Solar Flare description is more fitting since it clashed with Excalibur's beam and it's consistent with the other solar related abilities at Ramsses' disposal. In addition, the value given by the calc is consistent with the fact that it matched Excalibur Proto and a 3x Command Seal Stella (Anti-Army, Anti-Fortress, and Anti-Country NP) as mentioned earlier.

That said, I do agree with your points on how no one would scale to this in durability since it was matched by two other Noble Phantasms and even then this was after Ramsses' Master was dead and thus he was running out of prana.

 

[RavenSupreme]

No Raven, what I meant, is that he didn't take the attack at all, it was blocked by him by someone else, so Sieg and his AoF can't be scaled to this, as it would still be far above anything he's tanked which is Mordred's Clarent Blood Arthur, which is around City-Mountain Level.
BTW, I hope you don't mind but I've messaged some staff members and people familiar to the verse to check this out.

wasnt it stated that even without intervention his AoF would make him survive this? i need to find that

 

[RegisNex1232]

wasnt it stated that even without intervention his AoF would make him survive this? i need to find that

I don't think so, and it seems very unlikely given what it took to stop VS, a shield that represents the world which has possibly Planet Level durability and the fact that it is said to be stronger than Karna's Country Level Brahmastra as well as the fact that it is stated to be strong enough to kill Nasuverse gods, who are way above almost all Servants save a few outliers (Gil and such).

 

[RavenSupreme]

>Even with the Armour of Fafnir Saber of Black had no chance of taking the brute of that flash.<

correct. he cant be scaled to VS. i was wrong

 

[Yamatohime]

I don't think so, and it seems very unlikely given what it took to stop VS, a shield that represents the world which has possibly Planet Level durability and the fact that it is said to be stronger than Karna's Country Level Brahmastra as well as the fact that it is stated to be strong enough to kill Nasuverse gods, who are way above almost all Servants save a few outliers (Gil and such).

Some deities still even beyond it. Amaterasu no sell all Fate Extra Servants if we can believe materials.

 

[KamiYasha]

Well, actually Karna's armor is by far the most powerful one.

Between Gilgamesh's armor and Saber of Black's armor...i'm not so sure.

Then about the calc... i guess is alright. (Although, i'm not the best to say that the calc itself is okay)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If this calc doesn't contradict anything in the series, I say it's okay.

 

[RegisNex1232]

It shouldn't contradict anything, considering Ramesses/Ozymandias is one of the few top tiers like Arjuna, Karna, Scathach, Cu Alter and so on, who are capable of making Gil go serious. All this does is establish him as near the head of that pack due to the AP value of the calc.

 

[Promestein]

Isn't Excalibur Proto Island level, though? The Dendera Electric Bulb is superior to that.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

^It's at least Island level, yes.

IDK much about this guy or the feat but i'm about as what Matt said: If it doesn't contradict anything major in the series for that, then i don't mind this calc upgrade then...

 

[Alakabamm]

Excalibur proto is like minimum Island level, the full destructive capacity is implied to be above what we can see from a small glimpse of the blast.

This should theoretically scale to higher tier NPs like EA to some extent; however, it does seem like the quote used vape for Tokyo instead of the fleet which is quite iffy. I'd probably go with the Large Island value that Raven gave tbh...

 

[RavenSupreme]

i think this was discussed previously and agreed that there is no reason to assume a NP which has a certain showed way of distruction (vape) will change the way it destroys. my calc was before some more people commented on it

right now we are at the scaling game, who benefits from it etc.